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When A Cache Is Muggled!!!


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If I find the container, logbook, or something that I can prove was supposed to be the cache, then I found it. The log I write will tell of what I found. I will probably also email the owner to let him know more details.

 

If I don't find any part of the cache, then I post a DNF. How do I know it's really gone?

 

edited to add: here is a log from a muggled cache. We were still hiking up the hill, about 90-100 feet from where the GPS was pointing. The container was out in the open with the contents strewn about.

Edited by Team GPSaxophone
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If you find the cache and log book, post a find and e-mail the cache owner. If you find debris, no log book, etc., post a dnf and e-mail the cache owner.

 

This has been the subject of lengthy debate here in the forums, but IMHO, if you don't find the cache (write your name in the log book), then its not a find.

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The one I found I logged as a find. Finding scraps is much harder then finding a big container! :lol:

 

Here's what I logged:

 

MUGGLE ATTACK! Cache is gone. My daughter and I found only the lid to the container, and underneath the lid we found one dragon tear and one purple whistle, so we collected those up and looked for the rest of the cache (hoping for a dog or animal raid as opposed to muggle raid). Swept around for quite some time (just in case I found what I thought was the cache, but doubted that due to finding a Dragon Tear Eagletrek) and lid matching discription for container) in bigger circles trying to find other cache deposits to rescue or parts of the container... to no avail. I propped the lid against a tree in case any other cachers came by (wrote "Muggle Attack" and date).

 

Will stop by and drop off whistle & dragon tear if the cache gets restored.

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My Humble Opinion:

If you find the cache intact, and sign the logbook, you should log a find.

If you get close and didn't find it, that is a DNF.

If your GPS zeroes out, and you think you see where the cache was, but it's not there, that is a DNF.

If you drive 1500 miles and come within 200 feet of the cache only to find that it's in a park that closed 20 minutes ago and you don't go in, that is a DNF.

If you find the cache destroyed, muggled, or strewn about, and you can't repair it yourself, or if the log book is destroyed, that is a "needs archived".

If, after logging a needs archived, the owner of the cache emails you to tell you it's okay to log the find, you can.

If you have found the cache before, and went to find it again, and you did, that's a note.

Anything else, it's a note.

 

I cannot understand people logging finds without actually finding the cache. What in the world do they think is the purpose of logging a DNF?

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I'm not being critical, JD, and reasonable minds can differ about this, but if it were me, I would have logged a dnf. You didn't find the cache, you found a debris trail.

 

The folks that locate the Titanic could hardly have claimed that honor if all they found were deck chairs and trash, no matter how hard it was to track down.

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I'm not being critical, JD, and reasonable minds can differ about this, but if it were me, I would have logged a dnf. You didn't find the cache, you found a debris trail.

 

The folks that locate the Titanic could hardly have claimed that honor if all they found were deck chairs and trash, no matter how hard it was to track down.

1) I wouldn't mind if you WERE critical. Water off a duck's back...

 

2) I'm not at all reasonable.

 

3) Debris trail? Titanic? In the immortal words of Dude, "what, are you a (beep) oceanographer now?" Should we call you Robert Balard? :lol:

 

On a more serious note, I had emailed the owner and let him know. He replied back that not only had I found the debris trail (ok, ok, we'll talk in your terms- deck chairs), but I returned what I found to the EXACT spot where he had hidden the cache (uh, took the water robot thingy and put the chair back on the deck).

 

This was no accident, since all the signs in the area pointed clearly to the exact location. Let's just suffice it to say I've done a little bit of tracking over my lifetime, and the signs were just as obvious as finding the origninal large container.

 

So, he said it was ok to log the find. He also let the folks that found the replaced debris and my note log it as a find, also, seeing as it was in the exact spot.

 

I'm not certain I agree with the "log" as the "cache." Perhaps at one time, this was the case, but with the advent of "virtual" caches, perhaps we should expand our definition of this particular reality of "location" or "find?"

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If the owner is willing to allow a find, then log it as a find.

 

Me personally, no logbook? me no log find.

 

And I've done this. Hour drive, missing cache, went home, owner verified I had the correct spot, cache replaced, drove back to sign the log. That's just how I prefer to do it.

 

That means I'd have to find a logbook in the deck chairs.

Edited by 11 After
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The way I look at it:

 

You get to the area and find the cache - Found It

 

You get to the area and find the empty cache container (and you know its the container) - Found it (with a note to the owner)

 

You get to the area and find obvious cache contents (logbook, etc..) on the ground and no container - Found it (trash out and a note to the owner).

 

You get to the area an find the container and contents strewn about - Found It (put it back together, replace it and send a note to the owner)

 

You get to the area and find a Tupperware lid that says "geocaching.com" - I'd DNF, but I wouldn't begrudge someone who wants to call it a find.

 

You get to the area and find nothing - DNF

 

You get to the area and find nothing but a pile of sticks with the impression of an ammo box in the middle of them - DNF

 

You get to the area and a spoiler photo you have with you is positive proof the cache is gone - DNF

 

You get to the area and find some broken pieces of plastic and an empty Ziploc - DNF

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I think it is generally agreed that the 'soul' of a cache is the log book. If you don't find the log book, and log your visit in said book, you have NOT found the cache, which equates to a 'DNF'.....

But it's up to you. I'm not even tight a**ed enough to refuse a smiley on my own caches for a claim that falls outside the above definition. The only one that grips my parts is multiple claims on the same cache. The smiley is a reward for searching and finding the cache (the log book, by the above definition), not for returning to a place you have already been.

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I think it is generally agreed that the 'soul' of a cache is the log book. If you don't find the log book, and log your visit in said book, you have NOT found the cache, which equates to a 'DNF'

 

I don't get that reasoning. So if I go to look for a new cache and find a nicely painted ammo box, filled with neat trinkets, but the owner forgot to include a logbook, it should be a DNF? I don't know about that. I found the cache and to me its a find. If there is no notebook, I'd probably just leave a business card (as I did in one case where the logbook was so wet I couldn't write in it).

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So if I go to look for a new cache and find a nicely painted ammo box, filled with neat trinkets, but the owner forgot to include a logbook, it should be a DNF?  I don't know about that.

I thought about this extreme example when I replied earlier. I carry extra log books to drop in the cache (and post a "find" saying the log book was missing/full/too wet to sign). Most intact caches have an intact log book. If the cache is intact, but the log book isn't, I'd call that a find.

 

If the cache is plundered, and there are only scraps and no log book, I don't count that as a find.

 

Edit: But I defer to the venerable Briansnat.

Edited by Sputnik 57
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The best thing to do is email the owner and ask them. Describe where you were looking and what you found. If you have a digital camer with you, take photos and email them to the owner.

 

If the owner decides to let you log it as a find then go ahead if not, log a DNF or note.

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I think it is generally agreed that the 'soul' of a cache is the log book. If you don't find the log book, and log your visit in said book, you have NOT found the cache, which equates to a 'DNF'

 

I don't get that reasoning. So if I go to look for a new cache and find a nicely painted ammo box, filled with neat trinkets, but the owner forgot to include a logbook, it should be a DNF? I don't know about that. I found the cache and to me its a find. If there is no notebook, I'd probably just leave a business card (as I did in one case where the logbook was so wet I couldn't write in it).

I've got an actual example of when I had found a cache and was unable to sign the logbook:

A local cache uses a birdhouse as a container. The birdhouse is home made, is screwed together without hinges and is screwed to the tree. Clever hide, but how do you open it when the cache page doesn't say anything about bringing a screwdriver along?

 

I could see that it was the cache because there were ziplock bags inside and my GPS was zeroed out. I logged it as a find and explained my predicament. I also emailed the cache owner explaining things and they never replied. In returning to the cache later with other cachers, we discovered that the cache container could be opened without tools by pulling a nail out of one spot on the birdhouse. I am not the only cacher who didn't figure this out right away...

 

Anyway, short story long, I signed the log book on the 2nd visit and posted a note stating that we figured out how to get into the container. Is this a find from the getgo?

 

I try to just keep it simple and not overthink things. I check with the cache owner to see if they have a problem with me logging a find if it's a unique situation like that. If they do, it's no big deal to me to not get that one happy yellow dude.

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It depends on the owner.

I was looking for a cache that was a magnetic micro in a free paper box. I found half of the magnet and nothing else. I saw the owner later that day, and he said to log as a find, and immediately afterward he archived the cache.

 

Two weeks ago I found a piece of wood with a container in the end. The container had no log or lid. I placed a Write-in-the-rain log in it and used the bottom of a 35 mm film canister as a lid to cover it. This container had gone missing and someone had also put a 35 mm micro in the same area as a replacement. The owner said that until they could get to it and decide which to use, both legitimate finds.

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The way I look at it:

 

You get to the area and find the cache - Found It

 

You get to the area and find the empty cache container (and you know its the container) - Found it (with a note to the owner)

 

You get to the area and find obvious cache contents (logbook, etc..) on the ground and no container - Found it (trash out and a note to the owner).

 

You get to the area an find the container and contents strewn about - Found It (put it back together, replace it and send a note to the owner)

 

You get to the area and find a Tupperware lid that says "geocaching.com" - I'd DNF, but I wouldn't begrudge someone who wants to call it a find.

 

You get to the area and find nothing - DNF

 

You get to the area and find nothing but a pile of sticks with the impression of an ammo box in the middle of them - DNF

 

You get to the area and a spoiler photo you have with you is positive proof the cache is gone - DNF

 

You get to the area and find some broken pieces of plastic and an empty Ziploc - DNF

:D Like your way of thinking, I'll go with what you posted for DNF...

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I think it is generally agreed that the 'soul' of a cache is the log book. If you don't find the log book, and log your visit in said book, you have NOT found the cache, which equates to a 'DNF'

 

I don't get that reasoning. So if I go to look for a new cache and find a nicely painted ammo box, filled with neat trinkets, but the owner forgot to include a logbook, it should be a DNF? I don't know about that. I found the cache and to me its a find. If there is no notebook, I'd probably just leave a business card (as I did in one case where the logbook was so wet I couldn't write in it).

I've got an actual example of when I had found a cache and was unable to sign the logbook:

A local cache uses a birdhouse as a container. The birdhouse is home made, is screwed together without hinges and is screwed to the tree. Clever hide, but how do you open it when the cache page doesn't say anything about bringing a screwdriver along?

 

I could see that it was the cache because there were ziplock bags inside and my GPS was zeroed out. I logged it as a find and explained my predicament. I also emailed the cache owner explaining things and they never replied. In returning to the cache later with other cachers, we discovered that the cache container could be opened without tools by pulling a nail out of one spot on the birdhouse. I am not the only cacher who didn't figure this out right away...

 

Anyway, short story long, I signed the log book on the 2nd visit and posted a note stating that we figured out how to get into the container. Is this a find from the getgo?

 

I try to just keep it simple and not overthink things. I check with the cache owner to see if they have a problem with me logging a find if it's a unique situation like that. If they do, it's no big deal to me to not get that one happy yellow dude.

Cachers don't get to log finds because they're not clever enough to figure out how to open the cache container. If you couldn't get an ammo box open you wouldn't log a find anyway.

 

If that were my cache, I'd delete your log.

 

 

And any cacher who forgets a log book should be banned from caching.. Who forgets a log book?

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I think it is generally agreed that the 'soul' of a cache is the log book. If you don't find the log book, and log your visit in said book, you have NOT found the cache, which equates to a 'DNF'

 

I don't get that reasoning. So if I go to look for a new cache and find a nicely painted ammo box, filled with neat trinkets, but the owner forgot to include a logbook, it should be a DNF? I don't know about that. I found the cache and to me its a find. If there is no notebook, I'd probably just leave a business card (as I did in one case where the logbook was so wet I couldn't write in it).

I have a feeling that you are being a touch argumentative here. There will generally be some sort of exception to a 'rule' (sorry for using that word :D )

In the same vein I would say then that if a person can't find the log book when they open the cache and if they don't happen to have a business card then it's a DNF, but, if you DO have a business card, then a 'smiley' is OK!

Tough on you cachers who don't have a business card! *LOL*

 

:lol::D:lol::D:D:P:D:D:D

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Reading stuff like this always gives me a headache.

 

If you found nothing, it's a DNF.

If you found debris, it's a should be archived.

If you signed the log, you found the cache.

 

Is there really a need to pick at that any further?

 

What? No grey areas? No special circumstances, ever?!

 

If the point of the cache is finding GZ from puzzles, earlier waypoints, or spotting the clever hiding place, then finding the spot where the logbook _should_ have been would be a find for me, certainly as cache-owner and hopefully as finder.

 

If it's a traditional box-under-a-bush, then it's a dadgum shame if it's gone, but just walking to the spot where the GPS says "0 metres" doesn't constitute a find.

 

In addition, I've placed caches where the logbook is locked and needs a combination to open and sign it. This is similar to the birdhouse mentioned above, and I'd not allow a find for anyone who only found the GZ without also solving the problem of access to the logbook.

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I had a cache story very similar to vree 13's. sounds like the same kind of cache. this was a bird feeder way up in a pine tree with a pulley system in place attached to the tree by which you could lower the cache and have access to it. the problem was, pine sap had dripped onto the string at some point along the pulley system and stuck the cache in place. I couldn't get it down! I knew I had *found* the cache, but due to the condition of the retrieval system I could not sign the log... I couldn't reach the cache at all! I notified the owner and he let me log it as a find. I thought that was nice of him! :D (and of course I told him about the problem and he later fixed it.)

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Last summer, we went to a GeoKegger. On the way, we stopped to hunt a cache that the host had hidden in the woods a few miles from his house.

 

When we got there, the container and everything was gone. :D In its place was some religous literature. I don't have the foggiest idea if there is a connection. I'm just reporting what we found.

 

Anyway, when we got to the Kegger, we told the host what we had found, where we found it, and where we thought the container was supposed to be. Our purpose was to let him know that his cache was gone. Once we told our story, we wondered off to find the beer keg :lol: .

 

Later, he confirmed our description of the site, and gave us permission to log a find on a vanished cache. :lol: This is the only way, IMO, that anyone could ever log a find on a muggled cache. If the owner doesn't give permission, then it's a DNF.

 

--edit--can't spell woodes :D

Edited by Shop99er
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I have only logged one find where I did not sign the log book. I found the cache and it was full of water, the log book was there but unusable. In the future I will only log finds where I sign the log book, virtuals/locationless excluded.

 

After much contemplation, I have come to the same conclusion. ;)

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My Humble Opinion:

...

If you find the cache destroyed, muggled, or strewn about, and you can't repair it yourself, or if the log book is destroyed, that is a "needs archived".

 

I don't agree with that...it should be "Needs Maintenance" not "Needs Archived" in that case.

 

Caches get muggled all the time and often get replaced by the owner. Just because a cache was muggled doesn't mean it needs to be archived. In many cases it simply needs maintenance.

 

I reserve "Needs Maintenance" for instances where the land owner has decided to revoke permission, or a cache owner is no longer active and a string of DNFs has been logged with no indication the cache is going to be maintained...as it notifies a reviewer to get involved.

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Others have posted varying opinions, so I won't bother with mine, other than to point out one thing. You said, "it's not in the spot it should be at". How could you possibly know that beyond a doubt? Given the situation you wrote about, as you wrote it ... I'd have to say you have a DNF to log.

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had two so far, the first had the pen, geocaching card scattered and rest gone and reported it to owner who kindly emailed me to thank me.

 

The second one we found had plastic small toys scattered around the tree where the cache should be, as we went round picking them up we found the container and lid and placed it all together back where it belongs, this one i marked as found but commented on what i did and again got an email from the owner thanking me.

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Personally, I prefer a private email to the owner, rather then a public log. It might be a muggle who stumbled on it accidentally... but more likely it's someone who is intentionally going after caches... and making a public note about it gives them the attention and satisfaction they crave.

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Personally, I prefer a private email to the owner, rather then a public log. It might be a muggle who stumbled on it accidentally... but more likely it's someone who is intentionally going after caches... and making a public note about it gives them the attention and satisfaction they crave.

 

The advantage of a public log is that it tells others that may be interested in finding the cache that there are current issues with it.

 

As someone else suggested, if the contents are strewn about, a "Needs Maintenance" log, rather than a SBA log should be posted. Granted, if a location is compromised, and there is no place else to hide it within the allowed range one can change coordinates that it would probably be archived.

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Personally, I prefer a private email to the owner, rather then a public log. It might be a muggle who stumbled on it accidentally... but more likely it's someone who is intentionally going after caches... and making a public note about it gives them the attention and satisfaction they crave.

 

The advantage of a public log is that it tells others that may be interested in finding the cache that there are current issues with it.

 

As someone else suggested, if the contents are strewn about, a "Needs Maintenance" log, rather than a SBA log should be posted. Granted, if a location is compromised, and there is no place else to hide it within the allowed range one can change coordinates that it would probably be archived.

 

Yes... of course... I guess it depends on the level to which the container has been damaged.

 

For instance, if the container is still there, the logbook is still there, and the contents are just strewn about... I can do the maintenance myself, and send a note to the owner. If the contents are just missing, I can put a temporary log in and send a note to the owner.

 

If the maintenance is beyond what I can do to keep things together, then a NM log should be made... but (I think) the details of that maintenance should be kept off the public listing.... or at least do your best to not give the perp any more publicity then necessary.

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