Jump to content

Dnf's: Do You Admit To Them By Posting Them?


brodiebunch
Followers 2

Recommended Posts

s a relatively inexperienced geocacher, I have not logged any DNF's. I know some folks use DNF's as an indicator of a problem and I wouldn't want my lack of ability to find the darn thing to be the thing that scares off the next searcher

 

As an experienced geocacher, I wish you would log your DNFs. If you didn't find it, A the cache isn't there. B It is there and the owner didn't rate it properly or C As a novice, you took on a cache that was beyond your ability.

 

But above all, a cache owner wants to know whats going on with his cache. The least someone who looks for it can do is to give the owner feedback. Its called courtesy.

or D) I went for a walk and looked for a cache along the way, but ran out of time. Now if I thought anyone would benefit from knowing just how long my lunch hour is, or whether I only had 2 hours between the doctor's appointment and the soccer game, I would have a reason to post it. However, if (as I mentioned)I notify the cache owner if I made a thorough search and came up empty, I think that is sufficient enough to meet your definition of 'courtesy'.

 

Obviously, this is a touchy subject for some on both sides of the issue, so I'll know to stay out of this one in the future.

Link to comment

I think courtesy is the key word. Posting your DNFs is the courteous thing to do, and as a cache owner I do appreciate them. But keep in mind that I am the cache owner so it is MY responsibility, not the finder's, to maintain these caches. Part of maintaining, should be making regular visits to ensure that there is not a problem with the cache or the area.

 

Let's make a little analogy:

If there is a hole in my back fence, I very much appreciate a neighbor letting me know about it. However, I'm not going to tell my other neighbors that they were in the wrong for not telling me. My knowing about it allows me to take care of it before my dogs escape and drag everyone's trash down the alley. One neighbor has saved everyone some inconvenience. But the fence is MY responsibility. I am thankful that the neighbor told me about the hole, but in the end, if I'm on top of things, he wouldn't have to.

 

Obviously, some caches are in very remote areas and are not easily accessed. These hides will likely not be checked until there is a problem. In and of itself, this is fine, but overall shouldn't the cache owners keep up with the state of their caches? Be thankful when someone gives you a heads-up on a potential problem, but realize that many cache hunters, for whatever reason will simply move on to their next target. Letting this frustrate you only takes away from YOUR enjoyment of this great hobby.

 

Courteous cachers are great but maybe we should depend less on others telling us there's a hole in our fence.

Link to comment
I went for a walk and looked for a cache along the way, but ran out of time. Now if I thought anyone would benefit from knowing just how long my lunch hour is, or whether I only had 2 hours between the doctor's appointment and the soccer game, I would have a reason to post it.

 

Actually it could make a diference to others. Lets say you looked for 30 minutes for a 1 star difficulty cache, came up empty and had to get back to work. If you posted a DNF, I as an owner will realize that perhaps my cache isn't 1 star after all and if a pattern develops, I will adjust my rating. Without your DNF log I won't have this info.

Link to comment

Boy, am I late to this party or what?

 

But I'll add my two cents worth anyway. I posted something about this elsewhere before I saw this thread.

 

It has bugged me since I started Geocaching that many, many cachers do not log DNF's. Whether it's pride, ego, embarrassment, or whatever, they just won't do it. We'll head out at the crack of dawn to log the coveted FTF and end up not finding it - drat. But there were a ton of footprints around the site. Looks like a boy scout troop came through. We get home to log our caches and when we log the DNF, we're the only ones.

 

Later in the day, or later in the week, someone will finally log a FTF (usually mentioning it was an "easy find" :o ) and then the flurry of finds start to show up. Invariably there will be at least one person who says, "It wasn't there the first time I was there!" Well then, why didn't you log a DNF? What's up with that? This may be a minor gripe to some, but it really rubs me the wrong way. It's like it's a frontal assault on their pride or something. I just don't get it. Maybe they like to say "I've never had to log a DNF.

 

Ok, I'm going home now... :lol:

Link to comment

I usually go back to caches that I couldn't find, so I log DNFs when I've tried at least twice, and at least one of those was with someone else. If I can't find it with a second pair of eyes, then I feel that I've really done everything I could, and it's time to log it as "not found."

 

I feel a DNF entry does a couple of things:

It tells the cache owner that the cache could not be found. On the cache I own, a very experienced and respected geocacher logged a DNF recently. I *KNOW* I have to get out to that cache and make sure it's still there. If he can't find it, then it may be missing. If it's not missing, then it might be incorrectly rated; it's my first cache, so I don't know if the ratings are accurate. I think they are, based on my experience as a seeker, but I don't know for sure, since I've never had to hunt for this cache.

 

It tells the next person to visit that it couldn't be found. When I'm searching, I don't let one DNF bother me, but if there are several in a row, I know that the cache might be gone, or that it might be harder than it seems at first.

 

It encourages other people to post DNF logs when they can't find the cache. This is important-- if one person can't find it, no problem. But if that person posts a DNF, the next person might feel encouraged and post their DNF, knowing that the cache could be missing-- it relieves them of the burden of feeling like they "failed" at finding the cache.

Link to comment
It tells the cache owner that the cache could not be found. On the cache I own, a very experienced and respected geocacher logged a DNF recently. I *KNOW* I have to get out to that cache and make sure it's still there. If he can't find it, then it may be missing. If it's not missing, then it might be incorrectly rated; it's my first cache, so I don't know if the ratings are accurate. I think they are, based on my experience as a seeker, but I don't know for sure, since I've never had to hunt for this cache.

 

Now what if he was like you and didn't log his DNF until he made at least two attempts including one with a friend? You wouldn't have this info. As a cache owner you learned how important this info is to you, yet you won't provide it for other cache owners until an arbitrary set of criteria you set is met.

Link to comment

Yes, I post all my DNFs ... for me they are a 'Badge of Honor'. Really, DNFs do not bother me and they do not discourage. I've been stumped on some really easy ones before and found hard ones very quickly, so I don't get hung up on DNFs. Metaphorically, DNFs are like strikeouts in baseball. Some of the best hitters in the history of the game had many, many strikeouts. Do we remember their failures ...no, we remember how great they were.

Link to comment
Now what if he was like you and didn't log his DNF until he made at least two attempts including one with a friend? You wouldn't have this info. As a cache owner you learned how important this info is to you, yet you won't provide it for other cache owners until an arbitrary set of criteria you set is met.

 

An honest search is expected before anyone logs a DNF, unless the DNF log entry says something like "I'm a wuss, it started to rain before we got to the cache site, so we turned back." Then we know to ignore that DNF, as it contains no useful information, just a weather report.

 

For me, an honest search means going back, because I don't believe I can see the right spot the first time around (I nearly flunked driver's ed because I couldn't identify a driving hazard in a still photograph-- I also have problems with the "what's wrong with this picture" puzzles). Knowing, as I do, that this is my own limitation, I therefore don't log a DNF until I'm really certain that it's not just my deficient brain being silly at that particular moment. If someone with dyslexia tried and failed to unscramble a puzzle to get to a cache, would you expect them to log a DNF? All the DNF log would do in such a case is call attention to their own disability, not provide valuable information about the cache or site in any way. When I determine that my lack of ability to find a cache is not caused by my own myopia, I log the DNF. I don't expect or demand anyone else to play by that criteria for themselves, nor do I appreciate anyone else criticizing me for determining what is and isn't the right way for ME to play the game.

 

It's also not an arbitrary criteria-- at least, no more arbitrary than "if I get out of the car and walk towards the cache." Since he was out there with four other people, I certainly feel the person who logged a DNF on my cache fulfilled the same criteria I would expect of myself. What's more, I don't know how many times he visited this cache before logging a DNF. He logged it over 2 weeks after I listed the cache in the first place, and is well known for being a FTF'er, so he may have been out there previously and didn't find it then, either. It doesn't bother me-- in some ways, if he was out there twice, that makes his DNF more meaningful, because I know he really tried.

 

And finally, I don't make up the criteria for how *he* plays the game-- if he logs a DNF, I expect it's for a reason, same as for me.

Link to comment

I log all of my DNF's that I spent more than 10 minutes searching for. And the only time I don't spend more than 10 minutes is because of muggles being present or I'd found it quicker than that. I'd post a note instead of a DNF in case of muggles preventing me from searching.

 

I really believe that DNF should be used to reflect the level of cache difficulty (or whether it's missing). I was tempted not to post a DNF for a cache that everyone thought was easy...but I did anyway...it's nice being a newbie...I haven't learned to be embarrassed yet :ninja::ninja: .

Link to comment

I love it when these old topics get bumped, especiallty when they are too long for me to remember if I replied the first time around. :ninja:

 

Anyway, if we made an actual attempt to look for the cache and can't find it then we will log it as a DNF. I think it is important for other cachers to know whether a cache is still active or not -- if everyone starts posting a DNF then it is clear there is a problem.

 

If we run out of time and drive past a cache location or take a wrong turn on a path and can't get near the cache I don't think it is a DNF and I won't log it. But, if we get to the actual location and can't find the container, I will log a DNF with pride. After all, all of my logs become part of my caching record and they help me remember where we have been and the fun we had.

Link to comment

Log, don't log, whatever. Ultimately you're only cheating yourself, especially if you ARE a "numbers person".

 

I used to think that I didn't want to log DNFs because it would bring my percentage of percent down. That lasted a couple of months before I realized it's like cheating at golf when nobody is looking - you still didn't shoot 80 and you know it, even though it may be written on the card!

 

I have logged all DNFs except maybe one, I'll have to go back and look now. It's more fun for me to know EXACTLY what my cache handicap rating is, and like has been said before here, some of the DNFs make the best online logs.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...7d-7265a901a59d

 

I've played it where it lies and counted every stroke since 1983 - no winter rules even (oh, except in corporate best-ball tournaments!).

Link to comment
Log, don't log, whatever. Ultimately you're only cheating yourself, especially if you ARE a "numbers person".

 

Handicap ratings? Percentage?

 

My word, you make it sound like you're cheating if you don't log a DNF, no matter how you play otherwise. There is no rule on geocaching.com that says you have to log ANY DNF log, ever. Therefore, THERE IS NO CHEATING if you don't log one.

 

On the other hand, clearly you have some kind of mindset that comes from golf that I don't understand. I don't play golf, with rules or otherwise and when I play mini-golf, we use the "bridge" rules (you can have someone stand on the other side of the hole and serve as a backboard), and we don't care. My oldest minigolf companion is 6.

Link to comment

Yes it is hard to admit a DNF. I have a funny story about this one.

 

We were looking for a micro in the woods (go figure) when we arrived to GZ there were two geocachers wandering around with puzzled looks on their face. We introduced ourselves to these very nice people.

 

The frustrated geocachers confessed that they returned to this location after a failed attempt with clues provided by the cache owner. We offered to help look for the cache and with much effort the search ended in frustration for our new cachers friends. Not willing to give up we stayed until we found the cache. I posted a "Find" that may have prompted a shameful DNF from our geocacher friends. Sorry... :lol:

 

The funny thing is that we might not have found this one with out the clues shared by the frustrated geocachers.

Link to comment

152 DNFs posted. I like the golf analogy - it seems to fit the way I choose to cache.

 

Geocaching:

Find it = Found log, Looked at didn't find it = DNF log.

 

Golf:

Took a swing/putt = 1 stroke, move/roll it or miss the two footer still = 1 stroke.

 

Pretty simple principle in my mind.

Link to comment

There are more reasons to post a DNF: I went looking for a cache in the mountain, but the road was snowed under. It meant a two-hour hike in the snow, or wait for spring time. Being with my young daughter, we decided for the latter. Others may like hiking in the snow (I would, if I were alone and had the proper shoes), so the DNF will let fellow geocachers know of current conditions and help them decide if they want to attempt the cache.

Link to comment
Yes it is hard to admit a DNF.  I have a funny story about this one.

 

We were looking for a micro in the woods (go figure) when we arrived to GZ there were two geocachers wandering around with puzzled looks on their face.  We introduced ourselves to these very nice people.

 

The frustrated geocachers  confessed that they returned to this location after a failed attempt with clues provided by the cache owner.  We offered to help look for the cache and with much effort the search ended in frustration for our new cachers friends.  Not willing to give up we stayed until we found the cache.  I posted a "Find" that may have prompted a shameful DNF from our geocacher friends.  Sorry...      :P 

 

The funny thing is that we might not have found this one with out the clues shared by the frustrated geocachers.

 

<nevermind>

Edited by The Badge & the Butterfly
Link to comment

I too posted a DNF due to snow and not knowing the area conditions. Some of us who try to get the grandfathers, and did as much research about an area, or even knew it would be climate, might not realize that the objective just isnt pratical without extra data. Not that i said it was impossible, just that the next person is more informed than i was and can plan appropriately. Others i'll mark as a DNF if i have really tried and after 30-45 min, just cant find it. Only twice have i been off the mark, the other times it was muggled, natured, or the tree got cut done. At all times, i do my best to be curteous to the owner, as without them, the sport would be for naught.

Link to comment

Yesterday I set out with another veteran geocacher to check on several, relatively remote, caches that had not been found in some time (about a year). One we could verify was actually gone. One was probably gone, but we couldn't be absolutely sure. One we found, semi-destroyed, but there. The whole idea of the treks was to either prove or disprove the existence of the cache.

 

The two we didn't find we both logged as DNFs. There is no stigma involved with a DNF, just information that either the cache owner or future cachers can use.

Link to comment

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Depends how stupid I felt that day. I am as capable of not finding obvious, out-in-the-open caches as I am of finding very difficult ones. I am quite capable of having a blond day (especially since I started dying my hair blond...) It's rather embarrassing to DNF a simple find, and have the owner go out to check just to tell me "It's right there." I do log most, but not all, of my DNFs. A few have been replaced after my DNF. One still pending. Especially deviously hidden caches will not get a DNF from me. I'll work at them until I find them. No need to inflate someone's ego. If you hide a cache to glory in DNFs, you ain't getting one from me!

So, the answer is: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. All depends.

Link to comment

I am fairly new to this, but so far I have no DNF's. The way I look at it, there are a few caches out there that I have not found yet, that does not mean that I have given up and I will be back to find them.

 

After working everyday (at least a few hours) on the "Towers 2" cache I did log a DNF after I really did give up looking for this one. The cache owner realized there were problems with this cache. He fixed them, then deleted my DNF log. I then went out and was the FTF on this one.

 

Several times I have gone out several times before I found a cache. To me I did not feel that I did not find it after the first time out, I felt that I had not found it yet.

Currently I am still working on 2 Have Not Found Yets.

 

Maybe Groundspeak could make a new log just for me, it would be:

HNFY (Have Not Found Yet) :rolleyes:

 

After reading all these post's I do see the utility of posting DNF's, it could have saved me days of work on "Towers II".

Edited by nmbobster
Link to comment

The 10-minute searching rule I gave myself compell me to log DNF even though I do come back and find them all later. I log a separate find and keep my DNF. That might help other cachers in gauging the difficulty of the cache...they can figure out my newbieness by my number of finds I guess.

 

There was one cache that I modified my DNF to a Found (I did keep the original writings for a DNF) because I messed up the math for the final coords, resulting in a DNF, not because it was a difficult hide.

Link to comment

If I go to find a cache, and am able to search for the cache itself for a reasonable period of time, and don't find it, that's a DNF and I log it as such. If it's a multi and I can't find a waypoint or my final coordinates are obviously wrong, such that I don't even get to the final, I usually don't log that. If I can't search for the final because of muggles or whatever, I may post a note to that effect but usually won't log the DNF.

 

Today's rainy-day caching resulted in 5 finds and 3 DNFs; in all three cases I searched for a significant period. In one case I'm pretty sure on reflection that I was in the wrong place for the final, but still... it's a matter of self-respect, I think.

Link to comment
If I get out of the car and start walking toward the cache, I usually log a DNF.  In the past, my criteria was if I made a concerted effort to search, but nowadays, if I'm out of the car and didn't put my hands on the logbooks, it's a DNF.

According to the reasons that others have given for logging DNF's, wouldn't this be misrepresenting the condition of the cache? Other searchers would see your DNF and, not knowing that you didn't make a serious attempt to find the cache, not even bother searching. The owner would also think that there is a problem.

I'm sure that the thinking would be "If Markwell, with all of his experience, couldn't find it, it must not be there." I don't mean that facetiously. You're DNF would carry more weight than one by someone with three finds.

And yes, it's just one DNF, but what if a couple others happened to do the same thing?

DNF means DID NOT FIND. If I can't find a cache I post a DNF, not a note. I post a note if there is some other related issue to the cache.

 

With all of Markwell's experience he/she should know better to write a better description of what the DNF entailed. If I write a DNF I also write the reason why, anything else is lazy.

 

Typical DNF:

"It was snowing today, made my way to the cache site and scrabbled around in the snow for a couple of minutes. Forgot my gloves, very cold fingers. Cache is almost certainly still here, I will come back when the snow has melted."

 

Then the cache owner knows he/she has to go out and make sure the cache is still there AND other cachers know the cache is probably still hidden in place.

 

 

I guess since people find 25-30 caches a day now they have less time to log them. :rolleyes:

Link to comment

I like Markwell's criteria... it'll save me any skull sweat thinking about it. Generally one can tell from the car if it's worth the try or not; one can see any muggles about, whether the tide's too high or that hungry-looking bear is in the way. For longer hikes, I'll revert to my previous method, which is if I actually search for the final with a reasonable expectation that I'm in the right area, and don't find it, I log the DNF.

Link to comment
DNF means DID NOT FIND. If I can't find a cache I post a DNF, not a note.

 

You have it right. When you go to look for a cache, there are two possible scenarios - you found it or you didn't. There are log types to cover both results. There are no choices for "I didn't find it but I'm coming back", or "I didn't find it but I didn't look all that hard", or "I didn't find it because it was getting dark". You can explain the reason for your DNF in the log, but if you don't find the cache, its a DNF.

 

By not logging your DNFs you are denying the owner and other geocachers important information. If the cache is missing, you are delaying the start of a pattern of DNFs that will indicate to the owner and others that its gone. If the cache is there, your DNF could let the owner know that its might be a bit harder than he thought it was.

 

As a cache owner, I probably won't check on a cache after one DNF, but probably will after a second and definitely will after a third. If the cache is missing, but Cacher One doesn't log a DNF, Cacher Two does, Cacher Three and Cacher Four don't and Cacher Five does, then I wont go out to check on the cache until after Cacher Five. Cacher Three, Four and Five would have wasted their time looking for a missing cache.

Link to comment

I had my first DNF today because I got chased off by a groundskeeper after five or so minutes of searching because it was on private property (a church) and the listor did not have permission. Hopefully my DNF post will alert others to the problem with this cache before they decide to go after this cache in case it takes the owner awhile to correct the situuation (I also e-mailed the owner).

 

Kind of a crummy way to get a DNF. I am certain I would have found it if I had a bit more time.

Link to comment
I had my first DNF today because I got chased off by a groundskeeper after five or so minutes of searching because it was on private property (a church) and the listor did not have permission. Hopefully my DNF post will alert others to the problem with this cache before they decide to go after this cache in case it takes the owner awhile to correct the situuation (I also e-mailed the owner).

 

Kind of a crummy way to get a DNF. I am certain I would have found it if I had a bit more time.

That should be a SBA log, not a DNF

Link to comment

I say ALWAYS log DNFs. That way others can confirm that it's gone or not.

 

Give it a good shot 20mins or so when your GPS says you should be standing on it. Or if you can't spend that long then come back in a day or two and give it another go. If you can't find it then log a DNF. If a number of people in a row can't find it then log a DNF and email the cache owner asking them for an additional clue or suggest that they may want to visit and see if it's missing. If the cache owner doesn't reply fire off a second email to them, failing a reply on that one after 2 wks (allow for vacations etc) then log a SBA or email the mods.

Link to comment

I always log my DNFs. Even if its a 1/1 and the sort of cache of thing that a one-armed, one-legged, blind, brain-injured person with a hangover and recovering from triple bypass surgery could have easily found without even halfway trying. If I went looking for it and didn't find it - then saying I couldn't find it is all part of the game. Secretly, I suspect the people who don't log DNFs are the type who also drive very large vehicles to make up for (ahem) "short comings".

Link to comment

My philosophy: log a DNF if I made a concentrated, lengthy, and unrestricted effort to find the cache and I couldn't locate it. The purpose of my log is to let the owner and other potential cachers know that there may be a problem.

 

If I made a half-hearted scan of the area and left before finding the cache (ie, I got bored, or was driven away by muggles, or felt that the cache wasn't worth my time and effort), I don't log a DNF since the cache may be there but I just didn't take the time to find it. In this case, my logging a DNF would provide no meaningful information to the owner or other potential cachers.

 

Jean

Link to comment

I'm a Process Control Manager and you cannot track your trends without the failures. How do you know what to fix if you do not acknowledge it? Some call it the Deming Process or SPC. Being a rookie to G-Cache, I post my DNF's. In Benchmarks, I had 5 DNF's before I had my first success and then had two successes in a row! :rolleyes:

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Followers 2
×
×
  • Create New...