Need To Vent A Little...

[+Team Four Paw]

When is a multi a multi or a puzzle a puzzle?

 

I see so many caches nowadays that are labeled as traditional when they clearly should be something else.

 

I mean if there is more than one leg, ie "Go to the coords above, find some numbers do some math, etc" This is a multi.. Yet for some reason its labeled as a Traditional. Same goes for the puzzle caches. If I have to do anything other than go to the posted coords then to me this is a puzzle cache and should be labeled with the ?.

 

With all these caches mislabeled its makes any filtering mechanism in any app pointless.

 

Now I'm not saying I dislike multis or puzzles, etc.. All caches types have their place with me in which I enjoy.. I'm just saying if I don't want to do a particular cache type I should be able to filter what I want.

 

Am I the only that feels this way? Speak up.. !

[+briansnat]

I've seen very few mislabelled caches. I guess the approver in this area does a good job of correcting them before they are posted. I know most try to do this, but may miss a few. But at least in my region there are so few that it's not an issue.

 

If you find examples mislabelled caches, point them out to your local approver and he will probably try to correct them.

[Keystone]

The line between multi's and puzzles is a fuzzy one, but the line between a traditional, on the one hand, and a multicache or mystery/unknown cache, on the other hand, is pretty clear.

 

A traditional cache can be found at the posted coordinates. Period. No re-directors, puzzles, extra stages, combination locks, etc. If you encounter a traditional cache that is really a multicache or a puzzle cache, then one of the following things have happened:

 

1. It is a very old cache, hidden before most of us paid much attention to such things, and when everyone read each cache page instead of dumping waypoints into their GPS 500 at a time.

2. It was reviewed and listed as a traditional cache, but the owner later changed it without involving their friendly neighborhood volunteer cache reviewer.

3. The friendly neighborhood volunteer cache reviewer was asleep at the switch. This rarely happens in Texas, where you live, but it is theoretically possible. Even 9Key has an off day. Heck, I recently corrected a mistake I made in May 2003.

 

Regardless of the reason why the cache is listed under the wrong type, Jeremy has asked the volunteers to correct these miscategorizations as we see them or as they are brought to our attention. Send an e-mail to the volunteer and they can make the changes. Note that sometimes intense flames result from this, so there may be some tiptoeing involved.

[+Team Four Paw]

The line between multi's and puzzles is a fuzzy one, but the line between a traditional, on the one hand, and a multicache or mystery/unknown cache, on the other hand, is pretty clear.

 

A traditional cache can be found at the posted coordinates. Period. No re-directors, puzzles, extra stages, combination locks, etc. If you encounter a traditional cache that is really a multicache or a puzzle cache, then one of the following things have happened:

 

1. It is a very old cache, hidden before most of us paid much attention to such things, and when everyone read each cache page instead of dumping waypoints into their GPS 500 at a time.

2. It was reviewed and listed as a traditional cache, but the owner later changed it without involving their friendly neighborhood volunteer cache reviewer.

3. The friendly neighborhood volunteer cache reviewer was asleep at the switch. This rarely happens in Texas, where you live, but it is theoretically possible. Even 9Key has an off day. Heck, I recently corrected a mistake I made in May 2003.

 

Regardless of the reason why the cache is listed under the wrong type, Jeremy has asked the volunteers to correct these miscategorizations as we see them or as they are brought to our attention. Send an e-mail to the volunteer and they can make the changes. Note that sometimes intense flames result from this, so there may be some tiptoeing involved.

I love those guys 9key and Prime Approver. They do an awesome job. I think my intentions here is more or less to have people be more mindful when they submit their caches. This is absolutely not the best way to do it.. but today it's raining and I just wanted to stir the pot a little.

[CoyoteRed]

I need a ruling here.

 

A cache listed as a traditional but the coords are intentionally off to expand the search area. The hint is given to then narrow the search area some distance away like 100' or better.

 

Traditional or offset?

[Jeremy]

Traditional or offset?

Sounds like a puzzle/mystery

[+Cherokeecacher]

This is an example of what Geek is talking about. The description is from an actual cache that is listed as a Traditional.

The above coordinates are not the cache location. No boat is required as cache is on dry land. Look for a coffee jar. All calculations are spherical. Hints gives coordinates

 

The skipper of the Schooner 5 sets sail from the above coordinates on a course of 60 degrees true making 10 knots. The crew informed the skipper that a ship bearing the Jolly Roger had been spotted in the distance astern. After 15 minutes of sailing the skipper marks his DR position on his chart as well as a LOP of Everbright lighthouse (N30° 01.017 W95° 22.694), bearing 3 degrees true from his current position. The skipper is confident that the Schooner 5 will not be overtaken. However, he decides to throw his cache overboard to be retrieved at a later time. After the Schooner 5 had sailed an additional 30 minutes, the skipper signals his crew to throw the cache overboard. The skipper marked his second DR position on his chart as well as a second LOP of Everbright lighthouse, bearing 261 degrees true from his current position.

 

Did the captain ever return for this watery cache? Does it await the FTF that plots the correct course and drags it up from the shallows?

 

The point of geeks post, I think, is to raise the cache owner’s awareness of how they classify their caches. If the cache is not at the listed coordinates, for ANY reason, it is not, and should not be listed as, a traditional cache.

 

This topic really is that cut and dry.

[+The Puzzler]

So, what if a cache is hidden under heavy tree cover where GPS signal sucks, and so the posted location is given for a stump in a clearing nearby and simple directions are provided from the stump to the cache as "go 50 meters bearing 128 degrees true from the stump"? Yes, this is an offset. Frankly, it is an offset that is easier to locate than many caches without an offset, but lousy GPS signal. Would this get listed as a multi, a puzzle, or a regular cache?

[+Cherokeecacher]

So, what if a cache is hidden under heavy tree cover where GPS signal sucks, and so the posted location is given for a stump in a clearing nearby and simple directions are provided from the stump to the cache as "go 50 meters bearing 128 degrees true from the stump"? Yes, this is an offset. Frankly, it is an offset that is easier to locate than many caches without an offset, but lousy GPS signal. Would this get listed as a multi, a puzzle, or a regular cache?

It is clearly NOT a Traditional cache, the cache will not be found at posted coords. I understand your question, and reasoning, and am not sure what the correct "label” should be, but I can tell that it is not a traditional.

[Keystone]

An offset is a simple form of a multicache.

 

From the Geocache Listing Requirements/ Guidelines:

 

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches.  They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type.  They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers NEVER deface public or private property).  The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.

[+The Puzzler]

This topic really is that cut and dry. 

Okay, let's get more specific. Let's look at Spirit Park Toyland.

 

This cache is under very heavy tree cover. Any GPS location given would be +/- 50 m. The Location give is what was a best guess of an accurate cache location when the cache was first hidden. But, because of the questionable coordinates, the cache location is accurately described using directions from a nearby intersection. This cache is an offset from the interesection, although the coordinates given are really a best attempt (although a poor one) for the cache which is close to the intersection.

 

Is this really that cut and dry? If it is misslabled, I'm sure I hold enough sway over the cache owner to get it changed.

[CoyoteRed]

Okay, let's get more specific.

If you know the cache is 199' at 233° true from a specific point, couldn't you take accurate coords at that point and extrapolate the cache's coords from that? Fizzymagic has an excellent tool for doing just that.

 

So what if there is heavy tree cover. You got accurate coords, let the hunter do the same.

 

Besides, maybe some of use aren't as bothered with heavy cover as others.

[+Cherokeecacher]

In the example you give, the cache owner has decided to make it an offset, which should be listed as a Multi.

 

Now I completely understand “why” the cache owner has set it up this way, no signal requires it in this case, but it should still be listed as a multi so people will understand that there is more to it than loading to cords and finding it.

 

“My understanding” of a traditional cache.

Absolutely no additional navigating, projecting, measuring, puzzle or riddle solving, is involved. To over simplify it, no additional thinking required. Just load the posted coordinates into the GPS, follow the GPS, look for a perfect pile of twigs and sign the log

[+CYBret]

“My understanding” of a traditional cache.

Absolutely no additional navigating, projecting, measuring, puzzle or riddle solving, is involved. To over simplify it, no additional thinking required. Just load the posted coordinates into the GPS, follow the GPS, look for a perfect pile of twigs and sign the log

Also from this page:

 

Traditional Cache

This is the original cache type consisting, at a bare minimum, a container and a log book. Normally you'll find a tupperware container, ammo box, or bucket filled with goodies, or smaller container ("micro cache") too small to contain items except for a log book. The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page is the exact location for the cache.

emPHASis mine.

 

Bret

Edited November 1, 2004 by CYBret

[CoyoteRed]

Traditional Cache

This is the original cache type consisting, at a bare minimum, a container and a log book. Normally you'll find a tupperware container, ammo box, or bucket filled with goodies, or smaller container ("micro cache") too small to contain items except for a log book. The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page is the exact location for the cache.

emPHASis mine.

 

Bret

I think the underlying point here is if even though you can get exact coords to the cache you can't use a GPS at the cache site to find it. Is it still a traditional?

[CoyoteRed]

Traditional or offset?

Sounds like a puzzle/mystery

I was thinking as much. A multi, at least.

[+fly46]

In the example you give, the cache owner has decided to make it an offset, which should be listed as a Multi.

 

Now I completely understand “why” the cache owner has set it up this way, no signal requires it in this case, but it should still be listed as a multi so people will understand that there is more to it than loading to cords and finding it.

 

“My understanding” of a traditional cache.

Absolutely no additional navigating, projecting, measuring, puzzle or riddle solving, is involved. To over simplify it, no additional thinking required. Just load the posted coordinates into the GPS, follow the GPS, look for a perfect pile of twigs and sign the log

Hey, now... The DNF that comes from going to a cache and realizing later it was an offset is what makes caching fun.

 

 

Note that I did that on two caches I went to within 10 caches of each other... You'd think that soon I'd think to check. Luckily, for one of them, I have the cache owner on speed dial, so I called him and was like.. what's up.. The other one I just claimed a DNF on and decided to look later.

[Team Misguided]

I interpret the cache types as follows:

 

Traditional The posted coords are the actual coords for the cache.

Multi/Offset The posted coords take you to the starting point for your hunt. This starting point may be a container you've placed with additional clues or the starting point for a bearing/distance offset hunt. It can also be an object that you get information from to fill in the blanks in the final coords.

Unknown The posted coords are not for anything specific, just a random set of coords to place the cache in the general area. (typically within 1 mile of the actual cache). This type lets the finder know that some advanced work may need to be done to find the correct coordinates.

 

I hope that helps.

Edited November 1, 2004 by Team Misguided

[+Isonzo Karst]

This thread is very similar to another recent thread. After reading that thread I changed the cache type of one of our caches from multi to mystery. But I think it's not always clear whether a cache is an offset multi, or a mystery. If the calculation/arithmetic/navigation is pretty simple, I'd call it a multi not a mystery. I have a cache that involves a bit of very simple arithmetic that I'm calling a multi as the calculation is so easy. Here's a mystery cache that I think is correctly labelled. Individually, each of the calculations is easy and all the information is in front of you - but you do have to work through 6 calculations and some alphabetical gyrations to generate your second stage coords.

[Jeremy]

This cache is under very heavy tree cover. Any GPS location given would be +/- 50 m. The Location give is what was a best guess of an accurate cache location when the cache was first hidden.

That is a traditional cache. Many caches give additional clues to locate the cache once you get near enough. If the cache hider gives the best location of the container, it fits the description.

 

There are plenty of traditional caches with less than perfect coordinates. Even 30 feet on an incline is a large search radius on the ground.

[+CYBret]

This thread is very similar to another recent thread.

THANK YOU!!!!

 

I thought I was having the worst case of deja vu EVER!

 

Bret

[+Touchstone]

I need a ruling here.

 

A cache listed as a traditional but the coords are intentionally off to expand the search area. The hint is given to then narrow the search area some distance away like 100' or better.

 

Traditional or offset?

How about put a stamp in it and call it a Letterbox Hybrid. Shoot, you guys can make your own stamps