Metroguide Legal Question

[+Milbank]

I know I can't copy the software for others to use on there computer.

From what I have read I also can't make myself a copy then sell the factory CD to someone.

 

 

Does anyone know if there would ever be any legal problem with just downloading maps from my computer to other peoples Garmin GPS?

 

I'm planning to have a event cache next year and I was thinking it would be preaty cool to have my computer on site and use it to download MetroGuide maps of the area for the geocachers that come to the event.

 

Of coarse this would be done for free.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[+Renegade Knight]

Did you read the license agreement that you had to check off on to install the software? It if doesn't say no, I'd assume yes.

 

However I'll bet it's covered.

[+LordSaw]

I am not sure about Metroguide, but City Select has a two GPSr limit, and you have to unlock it for each GPSr. It checks the identity of the GPSr each time you try to download. I would imagine that you won't even be able to do it.

 

Cache Well

[+Milbank]

Did you read the license agreement that you had to check off on to install the software?

 

No, I was to excited to get it installed

I have read the Software License Agreement in the user manual.

 

Here is the part about the agreement that I question.

 

It says

 

2.YOU MAY:

 

a) install and use one copy of the product on a single computer or network. This copy is to be used by only a single user at a time. If you wish to use the Product for more users, you will need an additional license for each user.

 

b)Make one copy of the Product for archive or backup purposes.

 

 

3.YOU MUST NOT: rent,lease,loan, sub-license,distribute,assign, or transfer the Product except as set out in Section 2 (d) above.

 

 

My question then would be what exactly is "the Product".

Would that be the software on the two cd roms, right?

 

I would still be using the software on my computer, the computer I installed it on.

No one would be taking anything home from the event to install on there computer.

 

This copy is to be used by only a single user at a time

 

I would be the only one using the computer at the event to load the maps.

 

What do you think?

Edited October 31, 2004 by Milbank

[+Milbank]

you have to unlock it for each GPSr

 

Interesting, I have not had to enter any unlock codes.

When you go to download the maps it searchs for the model of GPS you have connected.

There is a button you can push if it does not auto find your gps connected.

 

Maybe the first thing to do is find a second gps and give it a try.

[+Texan78]

Well see this is what i wonder. If you can only download maps to only one GPS for the program, then what is one to do when you have more than one GPS personally. That would mean you would have to have a maps disc for each Unit. So i would imagine that you could load from one computere to multiple GPS. I dont think Garmin would make you buy a disc for every GPS you own. Say you buy one and two weeks it breaks, you send it in and get a new one. Your going to tell me i would have to buy anothing Disc that i just bought 2 weeks ealier when i first bought it. Just my opinion

[+Milbank]

Texan78 I think you have it right, but I won't know for sure until someone that has tried it post or until someone sends me there gps for me to try and load a map for them.

 

I wonder what Garmin would have to say about it if I emailed them and told them what I would like to do with the program at the geocache event?

 

Maybe they would tell me "go ahead, no problem"

 

I would guess after people seen it at the event some of the geocachers may go out and buy a copy for themselfs.

[+LordSaw]

I checked out Metroguide and it is fully unlocked, so I don't imagine that it would prevent downloading to multiple GPSrs. But I think if you email them, they will tell you that what you desire would be a violation of the licensing agreement. If you download a map to someone else's GPSr, then how would you control it to ensure that you didn't violate the one user at a time clause.

 

Cache Well

[+S&G.Davison]

yMaybe the first thing to do is find a second gps and give it a try.

Milank - let me tell you what happens ....

 

You can download any and all Garmin maps to any and all Garmin GPS units ...

 

However ... unless you have an valid unlock code what happens is the GPS unit just kinda ignores the downloaded map..

 

From what I can gather the Unlock code is used to hash (encode) the map which you download to the unit - as the unlock code is tied to the units Serial number you need to "register" the map set with the unit you are downloading it to. I have multiple Garmin units and multiple Garmin map sets ..do you maybe think I have tried every way I can to get a map set loaded without registering

 

Do you think I failed

 

Tyhe simple rule is ... Garmin allow all of their mapsets to be registered to 2 * GPS units .. the owner (of the map set) is supposed to "own" both GPS ....

[+Milbank]

S&G.Davison, you are taking about Metroguide North America v6?

Edited October 31, 2004 by Milbank

[+Milbank]

However ... unless you have an valid unlock code what happens is the GPS unit just kinda ignores the downloaded map..

 

What is a unlock code?

I have never been asked for one.

 

If it's a code that is created when the software is installed could I not uninstall the program and then install it again so I could then use it on two more gps?

 

I really wish knew more about software

[+Milbank]

If you download a map to someone else's GPSr, then how would you control it to ensure that you didn't violate the one user at a time clause.

 

I was thinking it was one user of the PC the program was installed on, not one user of a gps.

 

If it's one user of the gps I can not download the map to my gps and then give the gps to my son to use as it would not be legal, right?

Edited October 31, 2004 by Milbank

[+LordSaw]

However ... unless you have an valid unlock code what happens is the GPS unit just kinda ignores the downloaded map..

 

What is a unlock code?

I have never been asked for one.

 

If it's a code that is created when the software is installed could I not uninstall the program and then install it again so I could then use it on two more gps?

 

I really wish knew more about software

An "Unlock Code" is something you need to allow certain Mapsource products to be downloaded to a GPSr. It is tied to both the Mapsource Product and a specific GPSr.

 

According to the Garmin Website, Metroguide 6 is a "Totally Unlocked" product, therefore you don't need the unlock codes required for some Garmin MapSource map products. When installing Metroguide, you did not see any reference to "Unlock Codes" as it was unnecessary.

 

Cache Well

[+Texan78]

I wouldnt call Garmin and ask them, they will tell you no your not allowed to upload maps to multiple units from one computer. It's considered Software Piracy, so its like bootlegging. You would be giving away a product for free which would result in the loss of sale from people who would have gone out in bought it. If you upload maps for them for free, they would have no reason to have to buy it and spend that money. So thats money Garmin would be losing. So most likely they will tell you no. know if you call them and tell them what you wanna do and see if they have some kind of demo disc to where it has features of the actual product but not all of it that encourages people to wanna go out and purchase the full product and make Garmin money then they will be all about it im sure.

[+welch]

2.YOU MAY:

 

a) install and use one copy of the product on a single computer or network. This copy is to be used by only a single user at a time. If you wish to use the Product for more users, you will need an additional license for each user.

 

b)Make one copy of the Product for archive or backup purposes.

 

 

3.YOU MUST NOT: rent,lease,loan, sub-license,distribute,assign, or transfer the Product except as set out in Section 2 (d) above.

 

My take on this would be the 'product' is anything on the disc. So loading up maps on other people units would be violating the part about DO NO DISTRIBUTE. Your not making a copy of the CD for everyone, your just skipping right to handing them the data...

 

Interesting side note though, the part you quoted doesn't say anything about a person owning more than one gpsr. It says user... unless they consider the unit a user?

[+Milbank]

Interesting side note though, the part you quoted doesn't say anything about a person owning more than one gpsr. It says user... unless they consider the unit a user?

 

I also can't find anyplace were is says anything about a person owning more than one gpsr.

 

I can't see it being a problem loading a map into a family members gps or close friends.

A caching event is what I wonder about

 

It could also see it being a problem if I posted on the internet, "send me your gps and I will load your map of choice for free, you just pay postage"

 

Now that could be trouble.....

Edited November 1, 2004 by Milbank

[+Renegade Knight]

Reading what you quote you use the product to put maps on GPS units. There was no mention on the number of GPS units. It looks like so long as you do the work as the "user" you are good to go.

 

City Select has unlock codes. Metroguide does not.

[+Renegade Knight]

You could always ask Garmin.

[Vlad]

no you cannot do this - by loading the maps to other people's gps units you are pirating the product (the maps).

 

the cd itself is merely the media on which the product (the maps) are distributed. even though you are not copying the cd and distributing it you are still distributing the product (the maps) to other gps units.

 

unlock codes are irrelevant - some garmin products do not use unlock codes - the same rules still apply - ONLY the PURCHASER of the product (the maps) has the right to LOAD AND USE the product (the maps).

[Vlad]

further to this - products that do not have unlock codes are products where garmin's royalty payment (to others) is minimal (or maybe even non-existent). several garmin products do not use unlock codes.

 

those with unlock codes are for products where the original content provider (let's use Navteq in the case of City Select) has a requirement that the software be usable by only one (or two) gps units.

 

in all cases their software agreement mandates that the original purchaser is the only one allowed to load and use the software.

 

if you happen to own 5 gps units and you're using a product that does not have an unlock code then say "thanks garmin!" because you only need to buy it once and you can load it on all 5.

 

if you are using a product with lock codes then you're going to be less happy - you would need to purchase 3 copies of the software because each one will only accomodate 2 gps units.

 

that's not so bad though, it could be worse - magellan products like direct route and topo canada only allow you to use them with a single gps unit (not 2)...

[peter]

I agree with several previous posters that Garmin would probably consider this a violation of the license agreement. I know of at least one Garmin dealer who used to be willing to load a few maps onto GPS units that his customers purchased so they could get a feel for how the unit worked with the maps before having to buy the software (I believe this was before Garmin had their MapViewer on the website). Garmin told him that this violated the license and to cease offering that service.

 

The case of a geocaching event seems fairly similar but it's less clear if Garmin would seek to enforce their license agreement in such a case.

[coolclay]

Thought I might add my 2 cents even though it might fire some people up.

 

First I think if you are only uploading one or just a few mapsets, to each gps there is nothing wrong with this. The people that don't own it will think wow this is really nice maybe I should buy this.

Secondly why do people feel piracy is such a bad thing if done in moderation, I don't feel it's right to charge tremedous amounts of money for a program or information. If most software developers weren't greedy pigs maybe I would buy the program. I can see spending $30 or less on a program but $50-$100 that's just greedyness. There are many wonderful programmers out there that program for the good of human kind, and only ask for donations, I admire this when they could charge immense sums of money for it. Not everything that is illegal in this world is evil. Yes, I have payed $100 for a mapsource program, did I enjoy paying that much, no, but I feel that by paying $100 for something, I should at least have the right to share it with a few others that are not as fortunate as me.

Disclaimer: These are just my views, if yours are different thats alright but don't hate or try to change mine.

[+welch]

if you happen to own 5 gps units and you're using a product that does not have an unlock code then say "thanks garmin!" because you only need to buy it once and you can load it on all 5.

 

if you are using a product with lock codes then you're going to be less happy - you would need to purchase 3 copies of the software because each one will only accomodate 2 gps units.

 

Hey Vlad, would you know if you could just purchase more unlock codes from garmin? or do you have to get another actual CD?

[+Texan78]

First I think if you are only uploading one or just a few mapsets, to each gps there is nothing wrong with this. The people that don't own it will think wow this is really nice maybe I should buy this.

Secondly why do people feel piracy is such a bad thing if done in moderation,

Thats the thing. if you go around giving it away these are FULL verisons and then they wouldnt have a reason to go buy it. This is no different than music shareware programs. Every download made is another dollar lost from the Label and Artist. Just like with this every free download of this made you give away, is another dollar that Garmin is lossing. Its stuff like this with Piracy that makes prices outragous. These prgams take alot of time and money to make. If you serach around you can find these programs cheap. The wholesale price on these are cheap. Its the stores that jack up the price. I found the new MetroGuide V6 for $89. These maps are kinda like a OS for a computer. Without them your unit is going to work to its top performance. Its like buying the windows OS for your computer. They are exspensive to buy but its an essential, but like i said it is also very exspensive to make and takes a long time to make. Thats why if you notice the older it gets the cheap it gets. Piracy is Ileagal and it hurts everyone and its not right no matter how you explain it.

 

To give you an example. Their is a music program for DJ's called PCDJ. They were offereing a Demo for this program on thier site. Well on Kazaa their was a guy allowing you to download his serial number for this program and got hundreds of downloads. Needless to say this guy got arrested and is now serving a 25 yr prison sentence for share serial numbers for these programs. The company lost millions of Dollars and now to buy that program the price has gone up to cover the cost of losses

 

Another example, what if you developed a program like this and dumped all your money and time to make it and then someone buys it and starts sharing this program with everyone for free. You would start losing your hard earned time and money because no one is buying it cause they are getting it free from someone else sharing it. Then you would have to rasie the price to cover the cost. Now tell me that Piracy is right. I've been a victim of it on the music industry and it sucks. Some people have familys to raise so why steal from these companys, a USA one at that.

[peter]

First I think if you are only uploading one or just a few mapsets, to each gps there is nothing wrong with this. The people that don't own it will think wow this is really nice maybe I should buy this.

Secondly why do people feel piracy is such a bad thing if done in moderation,

Thats the thing. if you go around giving it away these are FULL verisons and then they wouldnt have a reason to go buy it.

Actually I think in the case described by the original poster there's a strong likelihood that distribution of a few map regions would increase rather than decrease sales.

I've met lots of people with a Legend, eMap, Meridian, or similar GPS unit who had only seen and used the basemap. They are usually very surprised when I show them all the things you can do with detailed MetroGuide and/or Topo maps loaded on my eMap. Give people like that a few map regions and they're very likely to decide that they really want to be able to use additional detailed map regions for their next trip or even just to cover their local area more completely. So they'll then purchase the MapSource or MapSend products whereas otherwise they'd just continue using the basemap - you don't miss what you never experienced.

 

However, I agree that the decision is up to the owner of the intellectual property rights of the software. So if Garmin chooses to prohibit such partial distribution of a limited number of map regions it's certainly their right to do so.

[+Texan78]

I see your point and i have mentioned that before to offer a demo type that doesnt have all the full features to encourage people to wanna buy it. For most people though they might only need and just use that region and wont go buy it. Besides he is wanted to share the FULL verison of the MetroGuide though so people would not need to go purchase it. Demo verisons are good ideas and can boost sales but you also take a 50/50 chance of people not making a purchase and sticking with what they have. Thats why some programs disable themselfs after so many days, or they ask for a credit card to do a free trial so if you dont cancel after the free trial you end of buying it. Their is no way to do something like that in this case. I'm all about getting and finding good deals but not at the expense of everyone else, which all its going to do is make us pay more in the furture and cost new reasearch and units to cost more to cover overhead costs.

[+welch]

I see your point and i have mentioned that before to offer a demo type that doesnt have all the full features to encourage people to wanna buy it. For most people though they might only need and just use that region and wont go buy it.

...

I don't have metro guide, but how big are these divisions??

I mean if you gave them a 20*20mi sq block of map data, thats plenty to play with, but not enough keep many occupied for long unless you center it on their home in Supercachedensity, USA.

[+Texan78]

Thats what im saying that would be a demo verison that lets you play with it in your area. For some thats enough, but for others they will probably buy it if they like what they see. BUT, Metroguide is the whole US, Canada and PR. its not some small region. So if you download it then your getting it all not just some small area. Therefor no one would would need to go buy it if they get it free, and Garmin doesnt offer a demo verison of just one small region. Trust me i checked.

[Vlad]

well the other side to this is that all of metroguide is 100's of megabytes of detail so if someone was loading software for people (not providing the cd) you wouldn't be able to load it all anyway. also from a logistics point of view 8 megs of data via serial port is 20 minutes of time...

 

coolclay - don't start up a software company because i think you might have a completely different perspective if you do.

 

welch - i'm not sure on on your question - it would make sense but somehow i don't think so. i'll email garmin and get back to you here.

Edited November 2, 2004 by Vlad

[peter]

Thats what im saying that would be a demo verison that lets you play with it in your area. For some thats enough, but for others they will probably buy it if they like what they see. BUT, Metroguide is the whole US, Canada and PR. its not some small region. So if you download it then your getting it all not just some small area. Therefor no one would would need to go buy it if they get it free, and Garmin doesnt offer a demo verison of just one small region. Trust me i checked.

Look back at the original post in this thread. He's not suggesting that he's going to download the whole MapSource/MetroGuide program&data to anyone's computer. What he proposed is to download the MetroGuide maps 'of the [event] area' to their GPS units. So they'd get to use MetroGuide maps for that little area (maybe a couple MBs of data) on their GPS, but they'd still have to buy their own MetroGuide CDs if they later wanted to download any other area. MetroGuide is divided into regions that average about 1 MB each and you select one or more of those regions to download to the GPS at one time. At this event he'd probably only download one or two of those regions. That's much more likely to get someone interested in getting detailed maps than it is to discourage sales since hardly anyone will only want maps of a single community.

 

But again, the decision is up to the owner of the IP rights, so if Garmin chooses not to allow such distribution it's their right - and they may well be restricted in what they can allow due to contractual arrangements with NavTeq - the supplier of MG data.

[Vlad]

welch - yes garmin can issue additional unlocks for products like city select. so my original post where i stated you'd buy 3 copies of the program to serve 5 (or six) units is still correct - but a second option is that you can also go the route of buying additional unlocks.

 

pricewise it might not be all that different if you needed 2 unlocks but if you're only looking for 1 then buying a single unlock would definitely be cheaper.

[+Right Wing Wacko]

On the products with Unlock-Codes (IE City Select), Garmin will actually send you the CD's for free if you request it on their website. Of course, the CD's are useless to you unless you have the appropriate un-lock codes, which you can purchase directly from Garmin.