Another Cache Is Blown Up: California

October 29, 2004

This is the thread to discuss the California Cache that was blown up by the bomb squad. Sorry about the confusion, I felt it would want to be discussed on the Indiana thread. If you read through the thread, the links should be in the first few replies.

Edited October 29, 2004 by amytincan

3.8k · October 29, 2004

The actual post is here

1.7k · October 29, 2004

Perhaps the guidelines should include that hiding a cache near a school woudl not be a good idea, unless you have permission from the school.

October 29, 2004

Why not move the discussion here? The other thread is about the Indiana case.

The article: Toy figures really get a lot of action

The cache page: Lion's Pride

October 29, 2004

I don't know how to edit my title to not say "No text"

21.9k · October 29, 2004

I am confused. What is this thread about? Without an opening post it is hard to tell. And what should it be called? Or should it be closed as having been created by mistake?

EDIT: The original poster has clarified her original post. Thanks.

And I have changed the thread title per her instructions.

Edited October 29, 2004 by Keystone Approver

1.2k · October 29, 2004

No, this new california report on a bomb incident DEFINITELY needs it's own thread. This one is separate from the Indiana incident, though a similar problem. If this is the thread for discussion, the "no further text" subhead should be removed.

Here ya go...

Edited October 29, 2004 by Sparrowhawk

2.3k · October 29, 2004

Oh, darn. usually we're hopelessly confused in these forums, but we understand what this one is about-- the bomb squad blew up a cache placed at an elementary schllo.

October 29, 2004

Yeah, I am going to start thinking twice before even looking for caches in an open public place. I'll stick with my hiking trails.

2.5k · October 29, 2004

What stupid cache owner would have a cache active at an elementary school during the school year....

And what stupid cache hunter would go hunt one on a school day?

2.5k · October 29, 2004

From the cache page:

it was marked as being a GEOCACHE complete with the web information

This is the stuff that annoys me. In the IN incident, the cacher offered to open the container and show all the contents to police, in this incident, the cache was plainly marked.

Why not do logical things before you go all psycho and waste taxpayer money?

5.9k · October 29, 2004

I mention in the other thread that this is an isolated incident, no need to change rules or complicate the approval process.

Edited October 29, 2004 by Criminal

21.9k · October 29, 2004

When I see a new cache that's placed on school grounds, I often send the following message to the cache owner:

I'm sorry, but between the heightened risks of terrorism, and crimes against children, this cache appears to be too close to the school building for comfort. Also, there are laws in many communities that consider it trespassing to be on school grounds without permission. If you can show written permission from the school administrators to allow this cache to be hidden, as well as granting permission for people to seek it, I will reconsider listing it.

Now, I may not catch every one... I have to gain a suspicion that the cache is near a school, either because of something said on the cache page, or because I've opened a map or aerial photo and there's an obvious school building next to the red dot for the cache location. I probably miss some. And some, but not all, of the other reviewers are doing the same thing. In the first instance, it is up to the cache owner to (1) gain proper permission for their cache placement and (2) exercise common sense in the choice of location and cache container.

In response to questions about caches on school grounds, the reviewers sometimes receive hate mail of indescribable venom. We're sometimes accused of being reactionary worriers who construct wild fictional scenarios. The "too many rules" crowd does not like someone telling them where they can or cannot hide a geocache.

There is an ongoing discussion that the volunteer reviewers are having about recommended updates to the cache listing guidelines. I will add this issue to the list for consideration.

This post represents my own personal opinion as a volunteer cache reviewer. Other reviewers (or Groundspeak) may have different opinions, because there is no specific formal policy for us to follow on this subject.

October 29, 2004

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...5b-c156c32296bb

it is about 501 feet from the school.... or at least the address that the school uses. It does look closed than 500 feet in an areal photo.

Edited October 29, 2004 by *gln

1.7k · October 29, 2004

When I see a new cache that's placed on school grounds, I often send the following message to the cache owner:

I'm sorry, but between the heightened risks of terrorism, and crimes against children, this cache appears to be too close to the school building for comfort. Also, there are laws in many communities that consider it trespassing to be on school grounds without permission. If you can show written permission from the school administrators to allow this cache to be hidden, as well as granting permission for people to seek it, I will reconsider listing it.

I think KA has come up with a very appropriate approach to dealing with caches placed on school grounds. I hope that it is adopted by other reviewers as well.

21.9k · October 29, 2004

Here is an aerial photo with the cache location marked with a red dot.

October 29, 2004

I think KA has come up with a very appropriate approach to dealing with caches placed on school grounds. I hope that it is adopted by other reviewers as well.

It is, I guess this cache slipped by the very bsy folks in California.

9.4k · October 29, 2004

What stupid cache owner would have a cache active at an elementary school during the school year....
And what stupid cache hunter would go hunt one on a school day?

I've looked for caches at schools during school hours. Of course, I have my own kids with me so I fit in just fine.

When I was in Chicago last summer, I went to look for a cache in a park. I felt like I was being watched the entire time, since my kids were 1500 miles away at the time.

24.7k · October 29, 2004

The words "Geocache" must of been the military markings they saw. The comment about military markings was a press soundbite. It denotes competence unless you know "Geocache" is rather unmilitary, but who but an attorney would say "look you ditz, what is military about the marking "Geocache". Regardless once the call is made...

As for caches on school grounds. Some schools allow their property be be used for recreational purposes after school hours and on weekends. Since they usually have a vast amount of open space they make great places to launch model rockets. Some of those eject motors that if found could generate a call due to the 'military' markings.

I don't place caches on school grounds that allow after hours recreation for one reason. The kids will find it. That's what they do. They are the world worst (or best depending) cache mugglers.

2.5k · October 29, 2004

Here is an aerial photo with the cache location marked with a red dot.

well, it *is* a good distance from the building. Still, if I were placing one on or near school grounds it'd be on the other side of that field. Off near the baseball diamond or something.

1.7k · October 29, 2004

The cache description below, makes it very clear its on school grounds.

*****************

This cache is located on school grounds so going during school hours might not be a good idea.

Actually locating the cache location should prove easy however finding a time when you can go look when you will not be seen is the hard part. Cache is a tupperware container camo'd. Contains various items.

Happy Caching!

******************

Lions Pride Cache

Edited October 29, 2004 by magellan315

October 29, 2004

I wonder if it might not be useful to raise this issue in the GPS in Education forum?

Perhaps some teachers or school administrators might have a useful and/or helfpul

perspective on this?

Just a thought.

2.1k · October 29, 2004

To answer fly's comments on "logic first"...

Bomb squads operate by a simple logic: if we can't conclude anything via x-ray...blow it up in a controlled manner.

If it *is* a bomb and the "cache owner" came over and said he'd open it to show you...you can't determine if he's not just going to detonate the bomb in a suicide manner now that it has been found.

Also, obviously, anyone who wanted to hide a bomb could easily label it "geocache" or "used ice cream" or whatever else and if the squad were to simply trust labels, then they'd never be cautious enough to catch a real bomb.

Labels and worried owners aren't going to deter the bomb squad. Only deterministic X-rays...and still, I'm sure these guys get a kick out of blowing up tupperware every now and then.

3.8k · October 29, 2004

That building (the one at a 45 degree angle) just below the school, in the photograph, looks suspiciously like an arms bunker to my trained eye. :mad:

20.7k · October 29, 2004

Is it my mistake, or has the last three 'blown-up' caches been tupperware. There should be a rule which forbids the use of plasticware as cache containers. Everyone should be required to use ammo boxes or pvc pipe. :mad:

24.7k · October 29, 2004

I wonder if it might not be useful to raise this issue in the GPS in Education forum?

Perhaps some teachers or school administrators might have a useful and/or helfpul

perspective on this?

Just a thought.

It would not suprise me if a few caches have been placed on school grounds as part of a class project. I know they have released travel bugs to aid in teaching geography.

1.6k · October 29, 2004

Whatever you think is "right" and "wrong" about the situation, it would seem to me that if this hobby has any hope of continuing, all practical steps must be taken to reduce the likelihood of these incidents. Here is my list of thoughts:

1. As many have said, be paranoid in picking a location. No cache should be near anything with more strategic importance than trees and shrubbery. I'm even worried about a couple micros I placed, although we might be just a hair less paranoid about micros.

2. While permission might be required, these experiences show that it is not sufficient to prevent an incident, so don't rely on anyone near a site to know anything.

3. I would not use ammo cans or any camo tape. Those have too many connotations. I can't understand why plastic containers have a poorer track record at this point. See also next point.

4. Containers of significant size MUST be transparent enough to make out the contents. Many of the plastic ones are too cloudy or become that way with age, so choose with care. I'm still pondering whether black film cans are ok. And I don't want to give bad guys too many ideas, but if you think about it there are other sorts of trouble that can be made using a geocache, and the ability to see inside helps avoid at least one of them, too.

5. Make the labeling as helpful as possible. Use something more recognizable in addition to "Geocache". Most people will not understand it and therefore be frightened by it. Should we adopt "scavenger hunt" or "treasure hunt" or some other recognizable phrase? The neat Groundspeak emblem should probably stay inside the box as it will not be recognized by non-cachers.

6. Marking the container with the URL and the Cache Name are good so someone can check it out if they want, without opening it. If you do this think about what the cache name will conjure up in the mind of a suspicious person.

7. Jeremy-how about a search by cache name on the top level web page so non-cachers can as easily as possible check out a named cache they accidentally encounter? And you might want to change the default in the country search to avoid exciting anyone.

8. Do not write the coordinates on the cache. I often see that, but don't see a need--hey you already know what coordinates you are looking for. Those numbers in an unfamiliar format may add to the "mysterious" or "military" impression.

9. Pick as innocent a user name as possible. There are some pretty colorful names seen here. Ask yourself how it would sound on the evening news or whether you could explain its meaning to a deputy.

10. Educating people could help overall, but you can't count on the right person being there to make the decisions, nor for the bystanders who might call in to all have heard of the game.

6.5k · October 30, 2004

What stupid cache owner would have a cache active at an elementary school during the school year....
And what stupid cache hunter would go hunt one on a school day?

I would guess its not really all that rare. Especially since more and more schools seem to be creating prarie/naturetrail/bird or butterfly garden/animal blind/wildflower display/ or aboretum type things. Many of these are either school owned but 'open to the public', or ownered by someone else but worked/tended in part by the the school (maybe students maybe not).

Well, I guess any time you can cache is the right time ?

I probably would if the cache was away from the buildings / watching people. But if I knew/felt I could easily be watched, then probably not, just depends on the location location location.

4.7k · October 30, 2004

i have three that are on school property. one is IN the school. they ALL have permission from the principals in question, and at least one is used by teachers with classes.

crime is not new in the world; global reporting of it is. the times haven't changed so much. there have always been wars and abductions and attacks and i'm NOT saying that caches should be placed willy-nilly around schools but i AM saying that our present trend toward hysteria isn't doing anybody any good.

the more we bring out our kids and go play in public spaces in healthful ways the better off we all are. using an area for legitimate recreational activity keeps it alive and vibrant and makes it less available to dangerous uses.

a closed campus is a very bad place for a cache. hidden corners near school buildings are also bad ideas. something in the open and with the knowledge and consent of the school administration can help strengthen school/community links.

so i think i'd like to suggest that it's not appropriate to categorize all caches near schools as stupid. paranoia should not be the cultural norm. it is possible to rank "i'm looking for the geocache" right up there with "i came for open gym".

when i'm hunting a cache near a school i approach it with the attitude that everybody knows it's there; if they know about it, my presence will not be alarming (of course, i look like i might be a perfectly serviceable little middle aged schoolteacher, if a little scruffy), and if they don't know about it, the cache ought to be removed for lack of permission.

i am aware that there is a risk involved that an overzealous neighbor may suggest to local law enforcemement that i be questioned. in my neighborhood, the local law enforcement personnel know where geocaches are, so explanations will be kept to a minimum. if i REALLY want to go after a cache at a scool at a weird time, i'll just call up the law enforcement officials in question and see if they want to come with.

October 30, 2004

One idea a local cacher came up with to mark our cache containers is to print "game piece -- do not remove" on the lid of the cache. It seems pretty nonthreatening and lets folks know just to leave it in place for the game players.

October 30, 2004

As I stated in the CVC thread, I will state here.

This is just another victory for those who profit from our fear. We live in a society driven by fear. This fear causes loss of freedoms and will be the death of this sport. When everybody is deathly afraid of everybody else nobody is safe. Modesto, terrorist target, Yeah Right!!!!!! Yes there are some sickos in the world and we should be on the watch for them, but who has ever found a bomb in a tupperware container??? I think our culture of fear is only perpetuated by stories like these and is promoted by those who profit from it. By blowing up a geocache every once in a while the bomb squad shows us that there is a real threat out there and we need to fund them more to protect us from those dangerous McTrinkets. Now because of this, several long time geocachers have pulled ALL their caches and are going to quit the game. Is this living free??? Do some research and find out who profits by us being afraid.

I for one refuse.

Peace!

20.7k · October 30, 2004

Bill93, your post was so interesting that I could not resist commenting on a few of your statements.

it would seem to me that if this hobby has any hope of continuing...

I don't think that incidents like this have any chance in killing off the game. Remember, no laws can be enacted to stop cachers from placing or finding caches that are hidden with permission. While it is true that in some cases, a person who is ignorant of the game or the permission given may call the authorities, resulting in a destroyed cache and a news story, this does not make our activities wrong or enable anyone to tell us not to play the game.

1. As many have said, be paranoid in picking a location...

While I agree that the cache container should be chosen with the location in mind, I think it has more to do with finding a container that is properly 'hidable'. This is why micros are best in a populated area. Beyond that, it is the finders responsibility to retrieve and replace a cache without being spied. This is not an issue that has changed since 9/11.

2. While permission might be required, these experiences show that it is not sufficient to prevent an incident, so don't rely on anyone near a site to know anything.

This is certainly true. In my opinion, these bomb scare calls are just another type of muggling. Caches will be muggled. Some will disappear without any fanfare, others will depart to the boom of the water cannon. The only thing that can be done to prevent it is to hide caches well and to find them stealthily.

3. I would not use ammo cans or any camo tape. Those have too many connotations. I can't understand why plastic containers have a poorer track record at this point.

I will continue to use both. However, I will pick the best container for the location. Plastic containers have the poorer track record because they are more likely to be hidden in a populated area as they are smaller. Ammo cans tend to be off trail and are less likely to be stumbled upon by Mrs. Kravitz.

4. Containers of significant size MUST be transparent enough to make out the contents. Many of the plastic ones are too cloudy or become that way with age, so choose with care. I'm still pondering whether black film cans are ok. And I don't want to give bad guys too many ideas, but if you think about it there are other sorts of trouble that can be made using a geocache, and the ability to see inside helps avoid at least one of them, too.

Ummm, OK.

What we've seen, however, is that any cache found could be destroyed by the men in blue. It does not matter if it is clear or not. I will not live my life out of fear simply because my activities might give a terrorist an idea. Believe me, there are plenty of ideas already in there, they don't need to start converting my tupperware.

5. Make the labeling as helpful as possible.

Bomb squads are unlikely to be disuaded by a label. Otherwise the bad guys could just put a 'not a bomb' label on all their stuff.

Should we adopt "scavenger hunt" or "treasure hunt" or some other recognizable phrase?

The problem with this is that it is not a scavenger hunt and treasure hunt gives a connotation of digging. That would be worse that our caches being muggled.

The neat Groundspeak emblem should probably stay inside the box as it will not be recognized by non-cachers.

I disagree. The logo gives the impression that we want. I don't see how hiding a logo is going to resolve anything. Honestly, I don't even see an emergent issue here. Caches being destroyed by the bomb squad is just a natural conclusion to muggling. The cache was found by someone who didn't play the game. This can result in new players, caches being looted, going missing, or being destroyed in this manner.

6. Marking the container with the URL and the Cache Name are good so someone can check it out if they want, without opening it. If you do this think about what the cache name will conjure up in the mind of a suspicious person.

I don't think that changing the names of all of our caches is going to stop bomb squads all over the world from practicing there training.

7. Jeremy-how about a search by cache name on the top level web page so non-cachers can as easily as possible check out a named cache they accidentally encounter?

I think a search by GC number would be more helpful to most players and nonplayers. The web address to the cache page could be written on the box. That way, anyone investigating a cache can easily find it.

And you might want to change the default in the country search to avoid exciting anyone.

INteresting idea, but geocaching is an international game. The most logical way to search by country is alphabetically. Afghanistan starts with 'A'.

8. Do not write the coordinates on the cache. I often see that, but don't see a need--hey you already know what coordinates you are looking for. Those numbers in an unfamiliar format may add to the "mysterious" or "military" impression.

I've also always wondered why people write them there. I don't think they cause caches to be destroyed, however.

9. Pick as innocent a user name as possible. There are some pretty colorful names seen here. Ask yourself how it would sound on the evening news or whether you could explain its meaning to a deputy.

The best tool to use to explain the hobby is the cache page. Why would I tell a police officer my geocaching name? The only time it would come up with a reporter is if I agreed to help him/her with a story.

10. Educating people could help overall, but you can't count on the right person being there to make the decisions, nor for the bystanders who might call in to all have heard of the game.

You are exactly right. Some caches will get muggled. This has been the reality of the game since day one. It has not changed due to 9/11. Edited October 30, 2004 by sbell111

1.6k · October 30, 2004

sbell111, thanks for the thoughtful comments. I'd like to hear more peoples' perspectives on these ideas.

My major rebuttal is that we have three chances to avoid an incident: 1) don't get muggled, 2) make the cache as innocent and easy to check out as possible to prevent a call, and 3) ditto to ease the fears of the responding officers.

You are right, at stage 3 it is often too late and these ideas aren't much help. But I think more good can be done at stage 2 than you give credit to.

October 30, 2004

And what stupid cache hunter would go hunt one on a school day?

According to the paper no one was hunting this one a janitor just came across it.

I agree that caches hidden on school grounds should never be searched for during school hours. If they have to be hidden on school grounds at all. I know there are a few like that in Washington state.

I'm beginning to like the idea of using see through containers more and more. At least in urban areas.

October 30, 2004

What about stage 4? Where the geocacher who placed the cache is held responsible and charges are brought up against him(California incident,Felony) because the cache was near a school & he may be held responsible for all costs incurred for the incident. That has been enough to have several cachers in the area archive all their caches & refrain from geocaching all together! I can understand why too, if all geocaches are treated in this manner & let's say someone discovers a cache & it appears suspicious & authorities called, Bomb squad called, Emergency personell all respond, ultimately they will determine who placed the cache & the owner will be responsible for the costs of all these agencies not to mention any possible charges that may occur! I believe that's what the individual in California is facing. All caches appear suspicious to non-geocachers, so the potential for anyone of us to find ourselves in the same situation as the California incident is very real.

24.7k · October 30, 2004

sbell111, thanks for the thoughtful comments. I'd like to hear more peoples' perspectives on these ideas.

My major rebuttal is that we have three chances to avoid an incident: 1) don't get muggled, 2) make the cache as innocent and easy to check out as possible to prevent a call, and 3) ditto to ease the fears of the responding officers.

You are right, at stage 3 it is often too late and these ideas aren't much help. But I think more good can be done at stage 2 than you give credit to.

sbell111 did a good job overall so I'll just address your points and another one that's been posted.

1) I agree. Prevention is hiding the dang things so non cachers don't find them. It's also finding them so muggles don't see you and freak out.

2) Failing #1 marking the container is such a fashion as to lessen the chance for a call.

3) Protocol takes over. Unless an officer has first hand knowledge (and I'm not even sure about that) it doesn't matter what it looks like or what kind of container. If they are unsure in any way. That's that.

Since #1 and #2 are the goals of anyone actually planting a bomb, what we are really doing is making a community gesture.

JEEPYSR As for holding someone responsible. I'm sure angry government officials will try, and maybe they will succeed on occasion. However the response of anyone is beyond our control. If you leave a shoebox in the back of your truck when you park at the courthouse to renew your drivers license and someone calls it in because they saw a fuse (shoelace) hanging out of the box. You never intended any harm. You didn't mark the box "bomb" you didn't make a hoax. You didn't sound a false alarm. The one reality of our post 9/11 world is that there will be more false alarms of all kinds because we are looking for this kind of thing. Why hold people responsible for living their lives and trying to have fun? There is no harm intended with geocaching. This isn't the same as throwing matches out your window when driving through a forest.

Edited October 30, 2004 by Renegade Knight

1.2k · October 30, 2004

Hey guys, why not just write in the logbook "TNLN" and then log on geocaching.com that you found it and didn't like the hidingplace. Why use explosive to demonstrate that you disapprove the cache?!? :rolleyes: :anicute:

October 30, 2004

I think this sort of thing is going to continue, perhaps become more common, as long as cache hiders continue to place containers in areas where 'muggles' are common. I have yet to read of a bomb squad 'detonating' a well-camoflaged backcountry cache...

-Bob

October 30, 2004

Has anyone considered that the occasional call to the bomb squad to blow up a cache provides some really excellent on the job training and practice for those brave souls who work to protect us from terrorists?

October 30, 2004

Has anyone considered that the occasional call to the bomb squad to blow up a cache provides some really excellent on the job training and practice for those brave souls who work to protect us from terrorists?

well yes, but should the cache placer be charged for their services? should the cache placer be charged with a felony offense, or even a misdemeanor? the cache is insignificant compared to the freedom of the cacher.

24.7k · October 30, 2004

I think this sort of thing is going to continue, perhaps become more common, as long as cache hiders continue to place containers in areas where 'muggles' are common. I have yet to read of a bomb squad 'detonating' a well-camoflaged backcountry cache...

-Bob

They still get reported.

October 30, 2004

I am beginning to think that education and partnering with local law enforcement is becoming priority. I am considering printing out a few brochures http://www.geocacher-u.com/resources/brochure.html and taking them to local police office just to make them aware that caches are out there.

Edited October 30, 2004 by nrune

2.6k · October 30, 2004

I am beginning to think that education and partnering with local law enforcement is becoming priority. I am considering printing out a few brochures http://www.geocacher-u.com/resources/brochure.html and taking them to local police office just to make them aware that caches are out there.

That's the most logical suggestion I've read yet.

Additionally, I know it would be pain taking to send a LostOutDoors satellite photo of each cache but maybe that would help too. It would definitely add support to a 'good intent defense.'

October 31, 2004

I am beginning to think that education and partnering with local law enforcement is becoming priority. I am considering printing out a few brochures http://www.geocacher-u.com/resources/brochure.html and taking them to local police office just to make them aware that caches are out there.

Almost sounds good on the surface, but I wouldn't be too sure that it won't backfire. Kind of like the Sheriff that said you're going to have to find some other game to play.

October 31, 2004

Is it my mistake, or has the last three 'blown-up' caches been tupperware. There should be a rule which forbids the use of plasticware as cache containers. Everyone should be required to use ammo boxes or pvc pipe.

Ok, excuse the dumb question, but how is PVC or an ammo box better than clear tupperware in situations like this?

PVC has been and will continue to be the source for many a pipe bomb and an ammo box, well, lets just say that would be an idea bomb container IMO.

October 31, 2004

I am beginning to think that education and partnering with local law enforcement is becoming priority. I am considering printing out a few brochures http://www.geocacher-u.com/resources/brochure.html and taking them to local police office just to make them aware that caches are out there.

That's the most logical suggestion I've read yet.

Additionally, I know it would be pain taking to send a LostOutDoors satellite photo of each cache but maybe that would help too. It would definitely add support to a 'good intent defense.'

I work as a Deputy Sheriff and I can tell you right now that you could educate every cop on the street from here to Timbuktu and in every situation, they are going to error on the side of caution. They cannot afford to do otherwise.

The first thing they will tell you after the Bomb squad destroys a cache is "how do we know the terrorists didnt disguise it as a cache, knowing those are harmless?"

A good example is yesterday. The cache I hunted for yesterday was in a rusty but still usable ammo can. I knew what it was, I knew it was supposed to be there and yet I was still apprehensive about picking it up and opening it. We know what was in it when it was put there by the original cache owner, but how about since? Maybe it was just my mind being ever vigilant? My point is, they have reason to be very suspicious of any containers.

Ive seen perfectly clear plastic containers, so why not use those for caches? Make it the responsibility of the cache owner to ensure his or her cache is easy to identify visually? I mean, we will take time to replace the log book, so why not this?

6.5k · October 31, 2004

Whatever you think is "right" and "wrong" about the situation, it would seem to me that if this hobby has any hope of continuing, all practical steps must be taken to reduce the likelihood of these incidents. Here is my list of thoughts:

*since you asked, here is my reply.

Its good to think about what could be done to prevent something you don't want to happen from taking place. But its also very hard to find any rules/guidelines that fit every situation, and of course getting everyone to go along.

1. As many have said, be paranoid in picking a location. No cache should be near anything with more strategic importance than trees and shrubbery. I'm even worried about a couple micros I placed, although we might be just a hair less paranoid about micros.

* Good thinking, 'we' will never get a 100% success rate since everyone views things differently, but good to work toward.

2. While permission might be required, these experiences show that it is not sufficient to prevent an incident, so don't rely on anyone near a site to know anything.

* Ok? I guess I didn't read enough of the recent bomb threads to know what this pertains to.

3. I would not use ammo cans or any camo tape. Those have too many connotations. I can't understand why plastic containers have a poorer track record at this point. See also next point.

* I think what sbell111 is pretty true, they're in some places that an ammo can would have been a poor (er) choice, so some plastic container.

Ammo cans can make very good containers, and tape a very easy and quick cover material. Which explains why they're used . Of course no what what container you end up using is someone gets the wrong idea, like that its a bomb, the police will be called.

4. Containers of significant size MUST be transparent enough to make out the contents. Many of the plastic ones are too cloudy or become that way with age, so choose with care. I'm still pondering whether black film cans are ok. And I don't want to give bad guys too many ideas, but if you think about it there are other sorts of trouble that can be made using a geocache, and the ability to see inside helps avoid at least one of them, too.

* Well like I said, no matter what container you use, if someone has the wrong idea, they'll call in. Besides, Im not a bomb squad person (like some here apperently are), but I would think it they thought it was a bomb they're not going to get that close to look inside. And if its covered with sticks/leaves/etc they sure don't want to start moving it around to see inside. This also applies to 5. labeling.

5. Make the labeling as helpful as possible. Use something more recognizable in addition to "Geocache". Most people will not understand it and therefore be frightened by it. Should we adopt "scavenger hunt" or "treasure hunt" or some other recognizable phrase? The neat Groundspeak emblem should probably stay inside the box as it will not be recognized by non-cachers.

*Phrase or not if they don't get it they are going to be frightened. Don't get me wrong, consider container, label, etc, but they are not going to be a 100% fix. I can't really think of one that is or I would suggest it.

Maybe you could use 'geocaching scavenger hunt' if you don't like just plain geocache.

I don't know what to think about the Groundspeak logo. I guess someone should take a group of non-cachers and show them a flash card of a sticker or stincil logo to see if they think its miltary related, or what sort of connotations it may have. Personally I don't use the logo anywhere to prevent possiable logo use violations. (yea yea I know, i can use it for person use, if I don't change it, and its less than 25 time and spend a couple hours cutting a stencil out)

6. Marking the container with the URL and the Cache Name are good so someone can check it out if they want, without opening it. If you do this think about what the cache name will conjure up in the mind of a suspicious person.

* Sure, but they have to be able to see the writing, something that can't be assured one finder later. And they have to know all the strange digits are a url and what to do with them.

7. Jeremy-how about a search by cache name on the top level web page so non-cachers can as easily as possible check out a named cache they accidentally encounter? And you might want to change the default in the country search to avoid exciting anyone.

* This is to Jeremy, so no need to respond.

8. Do not write the coordinates on the cache. I often see that, but don't see a need--hey you already know what coordinates you are looking for. Those numbers in an unfamiliar format may add to the "mysterious" or "military" impression.

*If someone wants to check the gc.com website for a cache, it would probably be better to do it by location than name, because a name search will find all duplicates and possiable similar ones. Where a location search should put them right on top of it.

But like the url, if someone's freaked out they may not think about what the 'code message' means.

9. Pick as innocent a user name as possible. There are some pretty colorful names seen here. Ask yourself how it would sound on the evening news or whether you could explain its meaning to a deputy.

* LOL. My test would be, would you be willing to go and introduce yourself as USERNAME everywhere you go?

10. Educating people could help overall, but you can't count on the right person being there to make the decisions, nor for the bystanders who might call in to all have heard of the game.

* True

My major rebuttal is that we have three chances to avoid an incident: 1) don't get muggled, 2) make the cache as innocent and easy to check out as possible to prevent a call, and 3) ditto to ease the fears of the responding officers.

* Muggling can't be totally prevent. Certainly don't make it easier, but theres a certain risk that any cache (low for Tahosa's that are 2miles off the road up a mountain or whatever) will be found by non-cachers. If those people are thinking 'bomb' thats what they'll find.

Two and three have the same problem. If they think its dangerous they won't touch it. If they don't open it they can't find any sort of stash note (that should be inside!). No, I don't think it would funny to paint a cache up with radation hazard icons, but all anyone has to go is the outside. I guess I would put 'geocache' on the outside on the chance they know what that is, and can read it when needed. And pick containers that aren't obvious unless someone's looking for it and locations that most wouldn't go without a reason (I hope).

24.7k · October 31, 2004

... We know what was in it when it was put there by the original cache owner, but how about since? Maybe it was just my mind being ever vigilant? My point is, they have reason to be very suspicious of any containers.

Ive seen perfectly clear plastic containers, so why not use those for caches? Make it the responsibility of the cache owner to ensure his or her cache is easy to identify visually?...

I think you answered your own questions.

You can clearly mark a cache as a cache but you can never be sure that it's not something else.

You can mark it so that if it is discovered it's less likely to get a phone call that causes a response team to come out. However once discovered a call can happen so it's better to make it harder to discover by a muggle.

The trick then become how do you disguise it so a cacher can find it, a muggle won't, but if they do they won't call it in?

Nothing will stop the bomb squad from playing it safe and following protocol once they are dispatched.

October 31, 2004

so now, because everybody is paranoid, there is really little hope of overcoming the increasing pressure for security.

2.5k · October 31, 2004

I knew what it was, I knew it was supposed to be there and yet I was still apprehensive about picking it up and opening it.

You're paranoid because you were trained to be. It's like once you were in the service, part of you always thinks like a soldier.

I still think that what you people need to do is educate your local police force.

Agree to work with them. Help them.

Then they'll realize that we're good people and not terrorists.

Another Cache Is Blown Up: California

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment