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Passion Of The Rock Cache


southdeltan

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In the way that I interrupted the guidelines on religious agenda, the last line “ Study The POI “ is an agenda. Inside the cache it contained material relating to the POI and knowing what the POI is, it was an agenda, but again trying to discuss religion and politics I cut it short not wanting to discuss it , my fault again, because I knew there was no way to convince anyone, and yes I asked that it be posted here for everyone to see as there were threads on two different clubs forums. Hoping to see other views on the subject.

I'm a bit confused on this - as stated I do not have all of the information.

 

I am assuming (foolishly perhaps) that POI stands for Point of Interest.

 

I took the line "Study the POI" to mean look at the interesting POI - meaning the big rock.

 

Could you explain more? Or perhaps Redleg?

 

sd

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I took the line "Study the POI" to mean look at the interesting POI - meaning the big rock.

 

I'm not a rocket scientist... I do have a college eduaction and numerous technical certifications and even hold an POST certification, but I freely admit that I'm nowhere near the smartest guy in the world.

 

When I read the cache page I also thought POI was point-of-interest and that it referred to some kind of rock. I haven't visited the cache, so I'm not for sure, but that's what I would expect B)

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It happened as a chain of events on the same day, a complaint was sent to me about the cache in question, a new cache was posted with a stronger religious agenda and the first response from the new cache owner was, well there is this cache Passion of the Rock cache that is the same as mine and it was approved why not mine so I went back and looked at the cache and archived it without any prior notification to the cache owner, this was wrong on my part.

Incidentally, here's a line from the listing guidelines:

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches.  This means that the past approval of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the approval of a new cache.  If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

Unfortunately - the individual items aren't dated - just the document as a whole: 11/05/03

 

The cache was listed: 3/11/2004

 

That's 4 months after the last change - but that doesn't tell us what the last change was.

 

---------

 

Of course - that doesn't matter if the cache isn't soliciting. I still don't think it is based on the information given.

 

The cache wasn't archived because of a complaint but because somebody wanted to list something that was similar in some fashion but clearly over the line.

 

southdeltan

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I am one of only 13 cachers that have actually found Passion of the Rock and I very much enjoyed seeing that strange sight. I live in the same part of the state and before the geocache was placed I had never heard about it. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I like to see when I go caching. Even if you don't agree with the underlying philosophy, it is still an interesting sight.

 

Everything about Passion of the Rock makes it a first rate cache: good puzzle, interesting sight, and an ammo box with trade items that carry through with the theme. My whole family enjoyed sitting around the dining room table helping to solve the puzzle.

 

Passion of the Rock is a better geocache than 98% of the caches out there. It is actually well thought out and INTERESTING - not just a leaky film canister stuck in a hole in a tree for the purpose of increasing someone's statistics.

 

It should be reactivated.

Edited by Pushmataha
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...As I was writing a response (now deleted) this there was a news brief. Any child who dressed up for Halloween will be sent home. They gave three reasons. The third is the kicker. A child dressed like a witch might offend a member of the Wiccan Religion.

 

That's an agenda. That's reaching out to push it. That's messing with traditions in the name of "Political Correctness" That's the schools saying you can't practice your religion but you have to be sensative to another one.

 

This cache doesn't proactivly push any particular agenda. It exists, the rock exits and neither forced or even asked for a policy change. It doesn't ask you to believe something other than what you do, It doesn’t care if you are Wiccan or Christian or whatever. It just exists.

 

Archiving it because of an agenda, especially after it had been approved was not the right thing. My local school banning dressing up for Halloween though comes from an agenda.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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...As I was writing a response (now deleted) this there was a news brief. Any child who dressed up for halloween will be sent home. They gave three reasons. The third is the kicker. A child dressed like a witch might offend a member of the Wiccan Religion.

Considering we don't really wear pointy hats and turn people into toads, I'm pretty sure we're more amused that we're that misunderstood than upset to the point of offense over it.

 

But, that's a perfect example, I'm sure, of part of the problem with this cache. People are so worried that someone will be offended by steryotype that they don't take the time to understand something and see if it's really offensive.

 

Hey, wait.. We're going to have to quit using Signal. Witches turn people into frogs, didn't you know that? B)

 

I agree with what Pushmataha had to say. I'd take an interesting cache - regardless of what it's reasoning was - over a boring cache any day.

 

And, quite honestly, we should be glad that this cache owner had the balls to tell us what his cache was about *before* people got there. Give us the option to see this instead of just cramming it down people's throats by making them walk past it unsuspecting.

 

I guess I just have a problem with this when there are other caches that are allowed for the same reasons this one was archived... this one, for instance - the full statue is of Jesus crying with a quote at his feet.

 

I'm not saying by any means to archive that cache, too.. I'm just saying that we need to step back and think about what we're doing here.

 

Druids, Wiccans and a few other religions are nature based. Our gods and goddesses are a part of everything. Does that mean that now we can't hide caches in trees because it will become religious to the Wiccan faith?

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....  Does that mean that now we can't hide caches in trees because it will become religious to the Wiccan faith?

What it comes down it is that we should'nt be afraid to hide caches in spite of all the agendas saying we shouldn't. We sholdn't be affraid to approve them either.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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PC running riot again.

Why can't people be allowed to take responsibility for their own actions? The arrival of the concept of PC in the arena of human action and consciousness was a very sad day. If you take a good long look at the thing you will see that it is a very insideous form of mind control. Obviously it is possible to offend others with things that we say but the FEAR of offending others is a nasty kind of limitation that is foisted on us by various do gooders. I don't believe that people are as easily offended as some would have us believe. I know that I would rather risk being offended and be allowed to make my own call on things than have someone else decide what will offend me and then TAKE ACTION to ensure that I never get to see it!

 

The basic concept of PC is a far greater offence in my eyes than a cache which uses the Bible as a source of information to solve a puzzle. I could care less even if a cache was stuffed with religious items. I would sign the log and leave the cache as I found it. The next visitor might well be ready to learn about what ever religion was represented there - I don't have the right to stop that happening any more than I have to close down the church on the main street in town. I am responsible for ME. The next guy is responsible for himself. This is religious freedom. As I have said before, if one is not READY for a religious conversion it will not happen because of a cache.

 

I find it more offensive that people think they have the right to STOP me seeing a religious cache than I do that some would place such a cache in the first place.

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On this case I agree with the approver, Requiring someone to look somethng up in a Bible or the Koran orany other religous book smacks of promotion of the relegion.

How is this different than a cacher owner requireing me to look at a greek statue or to find an element name on a chemestry chart?

A greek statue or an element name are not RELIGOUS icons.

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How about this one?

 

Easter Egg hunt 2

 

Easter Eggs are a derivative of a religious holiday celebration. Shouldn't this cache be archived as well?

AN easter egg hunt has nothing to do with any religion, the idea of an easter egg hunt is something that is promoted by retailers to sell merchandise, I guess you are going to try and claim that the easter bunny is mentioned in the bible, try again an don't insult my intellgance.

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Which is why it would be nice to ask questions first and shoot later

 

As someone who has been shot at and and fired-back, it's safe to assume that you've never been shot at have you Jeremy?

I assumed the meaning was clear, but if it wasn't I apologize. I was expressing that it is better to be pragmatic and do some investigating before taking pot shots at one person or another. If you notice I said ask questions first indicating a wait and see approach. I wasn't indicating that anyone should pop a cap in anyone else.

 

No, I haven't been shot at and as far as I know I haven't shot anyone else, but I was perfectly willing to die for my country when I was enlisted in the Air Force. I don't have any purple hearts but that doesn't make me less of a patriot, or more of a coward.

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On this case I agree with the approver, Requiring someone to look somethng up in a Bible or the Koran orany other religous book smacks of promotion of the relegion.

How is this different than a cacher owner requireing me to look at a greek statue or to find an element name on a chemestry chart?

A greek statue or an element name are not RELIGOUS icons.

A greek statue could be of an old greek god, and some people look upon science as a religion...

 

Edit: spelling error.

Edited by Corp Of Discovery
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How about this one?

 

Easter Egg hunt 2

 

Easter Eggs are a derivative of a religious holiday celebration. Shouldn't this cache be archived as well?

AN easter egg hunt has nothing to do with any religion, the idea of an easter egg hunt is something that is promoted by retailers to sell merchandise, I guess you are going to try and claim that the easter bunny is mentioned in the bible, try again an don't insult my intellgance.

Read this.

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How about this one?

 

Easter Egg hunt 2

 

Easter Eggs are a derivative of a religious holiday celebration. Shouldn't this cache be archived as well?

AN easter egg hunt has nothing to do with any religion, the idea of an easter egg hunt is something that is promoted by retailers to sell merchandise, I guess you are going to try and claim that the easter bunny is mentioned in the bible, try again an don't insult my intellgance.

Read this.

thisa is only one of many pages about easter eggs and religion. Google " meaning of Easter Eggs" and you will see many more.

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Good Lord people... I was busy sitting on my couch reading my bible, watching porno on the big screen, listening to Amy Grant on the stereo and drinking my nightly 12 pack of brewski's (okay so I wasn't listening to Amy Grant) when I decided to log on to the forum ... I wasted 20 mins reading this ridiculous thread. There is more than one poster here thats going to have some regrets in the morning (me for one). I wish people were as defensive about making this world a better place to live as they are about their precious religious beliefs. B)

 

How cool would this world be if religion existed only in our minds and did not affect our speech or actions. You could belief whatever the hell you wanted to believe, no one would ever know or care. You would only have a personal relationship with your maker with no way of communicating your beliefs to the outside world. Total religious freedom. Whoa, I've been watching the Matrix too much ... :lol:

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If it didn't meet their guidelines, they shouldn't have approved it!

This is true. Why was it approved if it did not meet GC.com Guidelines? I personally have no problems with the cache. But are we going to say no to anything like no cemetarys, isin't that disrespectful, some would ask. Isin't this 'game' to find places and things that you would have never took the time to really look at. I mean no matter what it is? You can't hardly get a virtural approved anymore so maybe the owner of the cache thought that this was a way of getting someone to that particular place to look at it. People have rights too. No one is forcing people to go and look for this cache. It is all done by free will. I don't think that the owner of the cache was trying to force any religious views or tactics on anyone. I just think that there should be more precice rules as to how the game is played. I'm not saying more rules just tell exactly what is to be and what is no to be. And also how can anyone or anything be 'neuteral'? Includidng CG.com? I am assuming that most people have a problem with someone or something or they way things are done. Wether or not you believe to be neutral. I don't think that it can be totally neutral in any way. I think that someone somewhere is going to be offend by every little thing in the world.

 

Ltljohn makes a good point about the fedral reserve notes. Dosent each and every americian have something that says 'God' on it. How are these people living? I'm sure 99% of people have bill that have to be paid. And people who buy things everywhere. How can they manage not to have 'GOD' in context anywhere.

 

If someone is patriotic isin't there some form of 'religion' in that? In God we trust, 'tell the truth the whole truth so help you 'God', One nation under God? Aren't these the things that all of us were brought up to as children? "In god we trust" is in everyone's home like it or not. Any one who has ever been part of a Jury or on Trial or has had to testify has some point in the wole truth. "One nation under God", 99% of us who can remember when you were allowed to say that sentance in school. That comes back to the speration of church and state. But what about the freedom of speech. Can't we have any freedom any more?

 

this is all just my 2 sence and I am not trying to make anyone mad. Just my thoughts. This is a free country.

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I'm reading where several of my fellow geocachers are getting embroiled in this topic. Once I read all the posts, and names, I decided that I would jump into it also.

 

First of all, let me say how much respect I have for everyone's views in this. I consider Southdeltan and Mtn-Man geocaching mentors for me. They are a true asset to the whole community, so if they get involved in something, then I know it's worthwhile for everyone to listen. That being said, let me get back to the topic at hand.

 

I, personally, have requested several caches to be archived. TNGeocacher and Mnt-Man have both accomodated my requests on several occassions. All of these caches had been abandoned though and were not active ones. After reading TNGeocachers reply to the whole thing, I can accept what happened on his part. To err is human, just as it's human to overreact sometimes.

 

I have not looked at this cache yet, and don't feel I need to. The whole controversy over this cache is indicative of a greater underlying problem in this country. What has happened to the term "Majority Rules"? This cache is in the same boat as many of our laws are. The vast majority support it, but one or two individuals are able to have it thrown out. This is wrong, but sadly enough, is being allowed to happen in our courts---and now in geocaching. This needs to stop in both of these venues. It just takes a group effort.

 

Jeremy, as a fellow business owner, I'm sure you're aware of the "Majority Rules" concept. When you're deciding what products to sell to geocachers, you base your decisions on which ones will be the most popular and in turn sell to the most people(The Majority). You're not going to invest your time and resources in a product for just a few people. It doesn't make good business sense to do that, just as it doesn't make good business sense to not listen to the majority of your customers. Yes, geocachers are your customers since you are running a for profit venture as you have stated. It's quite obvious from reading the log posts, the majority have spoken and expressed their wishes---------unarchive this cache.

 

Thank You

LSUFan

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Good post, LSUFan.

 

There is more than a bit of truth to what you say. However, there are issues that should have no compromise. I've coined a phrase elsewhere that a cache should be "safe, legal, and ethical."

 

You can't blindly allow majority rule, because sometimes the majority is not right. For instance, what if we all decide that we should place caches on NPS land without permission? Would that be right? Would that be in the best interest of the hobby? Of course not. "Majority rule" is sometimes called "mob rule" for good reason.

 

So while you can't just go with majority rule, you can listen to those you serve and get a feel of what direction they want you to go.

 

The rest are comments in general.

 

Personally, I'd have only the slightest problem with the cache in question and it does have to do with my beliefs--I'd be a liar if it didn't bother me in the least. However, that's not saying I wouldn't hunt this cache. I deal with religous materials practically every day. You might be amazed at how many Bible versus I put on jewelry and awards. I even have a site bookmarked to help me make sure the versus are correct. It's called biblegateway.com. It has something like 18 to 22 translations of the ancient texts, so if it's not in there... Well then I don't know where that quote would have come from. I would have searched those verses and had that puzzle solved in nothing flat.

 

While I understand there is a fine line between a Bibically themed cache and prothelizing one, not allowing any mention or use of religous artifacts would greatly reduce the viable options of interesting caches.

 

I'm a full-on atheist (little "a"), but find many aspects of religion and worship interesting. I'll even place a cache at a church or other religious location as long as I'm safe, legal, and ethical. Thing is, I consider most religions fiction based loosely on fact and don't care to pattern my life around it.

 

It so hard to find that line to know where to draw it. Maybe this is an example of it needing to be in a different place.

 

(Sorry, if I offend anyone, but that's my belief and I respect your right to belief what you want. Please respect mine. Thanks.)

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How cool would this world be if religion existed only in our minds and did not affect our speech or actions. You could belief whatever the hell you wanted to believe, no one would ever know or care. You would only have a personal relationship with your maker with no way of communicating your beliefs to the outside world.

I think when people are passionate about something, and it is something they do and believe in, they will talk about it, share it and it will be evident in their speech and actions. Everyone is passionate about something, and that will be what they talk about and think about. I'm glad being a Christian affects my speech and actions.

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Good Lord people... I was busy sitting on my couch reading my bible, watching porno on the big screen, listening to Amy Grant on the stereo and drinking my nightly 12 pack of brewski's (okay so I wasn't listening to Amy Grant) when I decided to log on to the forum ... I wasted 20 mins reading this ridiculous thread. There is more than one poster here thats going to have some regrets in the morning (me for one). I wish people were as defensive about making this world a better place to live as they are about their precious religious beliefs. B)

You don't have a clue about my religious beliefs.

 

I have stated from the beginning that I think this cache was archived for no good reason. I can't figure out why somebody thinkis looking at a rock is soliciting - so I'm asking them WHY. I still haven't recieved a full answer.

 

I would like to know what the complaint was. It can be quoted without mentioning the person who issued the complaint.

 

I'd like to know why the page is being interpretted as a solicitation. What information is out there that "we" don't know about that TNG knows.

 

sd

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PC running riot again.

Why can't people be allowed to take responsibility for their own actions? The arrival of the concept of PC in the arena of human action and consciousness was a very sad day. If you take a good long look at the thing you will see that it is a very insideous form of mind control. Obviously it is possible to offend others with things that we say but the FEAR of offending others is a nasty kind of limitation that is foisted on us by various do gooders. I don't believe that people are as easily offended as some would have us believe. I know that I would rather risk being offended and be allowed to make my own call on things than have someone else decide what will offend me and then TAKE ACTION to ensure that I never get to see it!

 

The basic concept of PC is a far greater offence in my eyes than a cache which uses the Bible as a source of information to solve a puzzle. I could care less even if a cache was stuffed with religious items. I would sign the log and leave the cache as I found it. The next visitor might well be ready to learn about what ever religion was represented there - I don't have the right to stop that happening any more than I have to close down the church on the main street in town. I am responsible for ME. The next guy is responsible for himself. This is religious freedom. As I have said before, if one is not READY for a religious conversion it will not happen because of a cache.

 

I find it more offensive that people think they have the right to STOP me seeing a religious cache than I do that some would place such a cache in the first place.

Amen Brother!

 

and on a side note (no sides taken):

 

I can probably think back through my day at night and name off at least 20 occasions where I could have gotten mad during the day at any one point-and-time for stupid reasons. What it boils down to is you CHOOSE to get mad or offended over things. It's everybodies own personal right, but not to the blame of the person who you perceive as the instigator. I don't think the cache owner's intent was to offend people. In sense, we are dealing with an inanimate object here. Religion is not an entity you can touch, it is only found in the person who believes in it. For the most part I consider all caches neutral because I have the right to find any one of them, or not find them. On a further note I can't believe I took the time to read all these posts. I could have gone out and found a cache in less time.

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Man these things get me worked up as well. I am an atheist and I have to tell you I am not bothered by this type of thing. What always bothers me is being PC. So somebody gets offended. So what! We live in a society where anybody can be offended by anything and we are expected to somehow deal with that and change everything to make sure that nobody is ever exposed to something they may find offensive. I am offended by many things everyday. But I act like an adult and just ignore it. Get a grip and move on. How do you handle the fact that people get offended by people that get offended?

 

I just wonder where it does stop. What about cemetery caches? Don’t they promote a religion? You don’t often find Christians buried with Jews buried with Muslims. So why is nobody worried about offending people that have to walk around looking for a cache in an area that has all those crosses religious figures and quotes? If cemetery caches end up getting banned, I guess you can all blame me for pointing that out, and I apologize in advance.

 

But it is clear from the start what is involved. If you don’t want to do then move along. As I have asked so many times in the past, what is so hard about that?

 

And yes even as an atheist I know that last clue is John 3:16. Hey the cache is archived I figured there is no harm in letting that big clue out of the bag.

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A greek statue or an element name are not RELIGOUS icons.

A greek statue IS a religous icon. Many Greek statues represent "gods" from ancient Greet Mythology. In all honesty, theres no way you can be saying that its okay to use a greek god for a centerpoint but not a Christian God. Religion isn't just Christianity. We all have religious beliefs or disbeliefs. By making the statement you made I feel that you are trying to enforce an atheistic religion on me. If we have to ban Christian icons from geocaching, then we have to ban all others that can be argued as being offensive including caches around greek statues and around places that are deemed offensive even by Christians.

 

BTW, yes, that would also include your easter egg cache!

Edited by bamageek
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Good Lord people... I was busy sitting on my couch reading my bible, watching porno on the big screen, listening to Amy Grant on the stereo and drinking my nightly 12 pack of brewski's (okay so I wasn't listening to Amy Grant) when I decided to log on to the forum ... I wasted 20 mins reading this ridiculous thread.  There is more than one poster here thats going to have some regrets in the morning (me for one).  I wish people were as defensive about making this world a better place to live as they are about their precious religious beliefs.  :lol:

You don't have a clue about my religious beliefs.

 

Nor do I care ... that was my point.

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I too don't see the problem. I would not be offended if I had to consult a religious text--be it the Bible, the Koran, the Tao te Ching, the Zend-Avesta, or even the Kama Sutra for that matter.

Ding ding ding. I don't have a single problem looking to a very WIDELY-AVAILABLE book for clues. Anyone can get one, or at the bare minimum, knows someone who has one.

 

If offense is taken with this cache, then I know a couple of caches that use the Periodic Table for info also. I know a lot more about one than the other -- should I be offfended?

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What does that have to do with the question "Does this cache push a religious agenda?". ?

 

That's the issue here. Since there are a lot of other issues tied in with that - I think that's being lost in the mix. Of course dealing with religion is going to bring passionate responses - especially when it appears to some (not me) that the cache was archived because it mentioned the Bible.

 

There's also the issue of communication, is the guideline fair, is the guideline misguided, plus a whole lot of issues that locals have with our out of state approver and his (other) actions and explanations. There's a fair bit of confusion and this is a subject that should stir passion. A lot of people see people say "don't force your religion on me" yet they're getting a "no religion" agenda pushed on them - I'm sure that pisses a lot of people off.

 

But I digress - back to the real issue - does this particular cache "solicit" someone to become a Christian (ie, "Promote an agenda"). Based on what I've read I do NOT beleive it does.

 

sd

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No, I haven't been shot at and as far as I know I haven't shot anyone else, but I was perfectly willing to die for my country when I was enlisted in the Air Force. I don't have any purple hearts but that doesn't make me less of a patriot, or more of a coward.

Jeremy, thank you for your service to our country. Tennesse Geocacher, thank you for the great work you've done in approving our caches. We appreciate it and respect you.

 

Having said that, we think it is a darn shame that this cache is outlawed by the rules. We think this is a terrific cache!! We are Christians, but we would not be offended by an identical cache that was themed as Islamic, Jewish, or what have you. We think the rules should be modified in such a manner that caches like this one would be allowed.

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We think the rules should be modified in such a manner that caches like this one would be allowed.

I just want clarification on why this violates the current rules. As the rules are currently written - solicitation (or promotion... or pushing an agenda) is banned - not religion in general.

 

I think there is some confusion about what the rules mean.

 

It is my interpretation that religion isn't banned - but openly and/or actively promoting one religion is. I'm not sure that mentioning a religion is promoting it. If that's the case there are a lot of other caches that need to be archived.

 

From the posts I've read on MSGA, Alacache, the Cache page and the forums - some people may beleive that this cache is being archived because it mentions religion (specifically Christianity) and therefore it's banned. That's not sitting well with some people.

 

I know that TNG, Redleg, and the GC.com admin haven't had time to offer all of the details - but to make sure these important questions don't get lost:

 

What about this cache was interpreted as being a "solicitation"?

 

What did the complaint(s) say?

 

southdeltan

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From the posts I've read on MSGA, Alacache, the Cache page and the forums - some people may beleive that this cache is being archived because it mentions religion (specifically Christianity) and therefore it's banned. That's not sitting well with some people.

 

I know that TNG, Redleg, and the GC.com admin haven't had time to offer all of the details - but to make sure these important questions don't get lost:

 

What about this cache was interpreted as being a "solicitation"?

 

What did the complaint(s) say?

We need to just wait and see what they say.

 

I think the problem is that we aren't seeing anything in the cache that could be deemed a "solicitation". Therefore, we are presuming that this said "solicitation" is simply the point of interest itself. If that is the case, then we can only presume that GC.com is banning the cache because it mentions Christianity. If thats the case then all of the concerns in this thread are valid to the point at hand.

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enough, already! Unarchive the cache.

First off, I usually don't spend 30 minutes of my time reading all these posts, but I did on this topic. I found that many people are passionate about this cache and/or the bliefs tied with this cache.

 

There is a cache in my area (I belive it is W.W.J.C which stands for What Would Jesus Cache) This cache is for trading religious materials. I didn't like the theme of this cache so I didn't hunt it. I guess I could have gotten some "non-christian" religous materials and put them in the cache to make a point, but why ruffle feathers. Would I suggest this cache get archived? No. Would I suggest the archiving of "Passion of the Rock?" Yes. The difference, because having to find Bible versuses is a little too too much. You might be able to sway me if you say "how many letters are in Joe 3:12" and I could google the answer.

 

The response from some people remind me a pet peave of mine. I often find trail heads "littered" with religous materials. This same material is also left on my car at the trailheads too. Why do people do this? If I wanted information on their religion I would seek it out. While I understand that one of the foundations of some "major" religions is to get everyone to convert or subscribe to it, I should have a choice and not have it "forced" on me.

 

Major religous themes have no place in geocaching. How would people feel if I placed a cache that was "Vote for John Kerry" And in order to log this cache you had to view Fahrenheit 9/11 and pull some random numbers from the movie to get the finial coordinates?

 

Keep it archived...

 

Edit: I'm a bad spelled

Edited by DeskJocky
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FWIW, this is the standard disclaimer that some approvers use when dealing with a cache that contains religious materials or a religious theme:

 

Disclaimer: Geocaching.com does not permit the advocacy of any particular religious or political agenda on its web site. While this puzzle cache requires finding clues in a book that is used as a reference document by several organized religions, it is not the intent of this cache or the web site to promote any particular belief system or viewpoint

 

If the approver of the cache had placed this standard disclaimer on the cache when it was approved it would have saved all this fussing and fighting over a box hidden for others to find.

 

FWIW, I found this disclaimer on several Biblical themed caches from different parts of the country.

So all you have to do is put this disclaimer on your cache and even if you do intend to promote a particular belief system or viewpoint, you're in the clear.

 

Any one who has ever been part of a Jury or on Trial or has had to testify has some point in the wole truth. "One nation under God", 99% of us who can remember when you were allowed to say that sentance in school. That comes back to the speration of church and state. But what about the freedom of speech. Can't we have any freedom any more?

 

Making me say, "So help me God" doesn't make me more apt to tell the truth. I'll tell the truth because I'm an honest person. It's just something you are required to recite. Freedom of speech and requirement of speech are not the same. You can still pray in school and say "One nation under God". No one will try to stop you.

 

On one hand, I wonder, "Why toe the line?" Looking at the cache page, the pics show crosses on the cache container (is that a crown of thorns sitting on top of the container too?), and people log taking "the Book" (their capitalization, not mine) and a "camo-testament". This is obviously a theme cache and the theme is Bible, Christian, Jesus. No agenda? I call bullsh*t.

 

On the other hand, this is a whole lot of hub bub over a cache. I would just ignore it if it was in my area, just like I ignore cemetery caches. PC is out of control. I'm glad that we have the freedom to argue about this and we all feel comfortable saying what we want to say. But if GC says a certain cache that I place is inappropriate that's their perrogative. I agreed when I signed up to be subject to their rulings. They are the referees in this game and even if I don't like a call that they make, they are ultimately the ones who make the decisions.

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I agree with bamageek and southdeltan. It seems that the issue here is not really religion, but solicitation. Did this cache solicit? From what I can see, no. However, let's be rational and calm here. TPTB are working on it and probably have more information than we have.

 

All I ask is that if the cache does not eventually get unarchived, I'd like to know the specific reason for it.

 

Jeremy, Hydee, and TNG: THANKS for the work you do, and thanks for taking a close look at this issue.

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There is a cache in my area (I belive it is W.W.J.C which stands for What Would Jesus Cache)  This cache is for trading religious materials.  I didn't like the theme of this cache so I didn't hunt it. 

 

 

Nobody is forcing you to hunt this cache. You already said you didn't hunt a previous cache because you didn't like the theme. What does this cache have that forces you to hunt it that the other one didn't have?

 

Major religous themes have no place in geocaching.  How would people feel if I placed a cache that was "Vote for John Kerry" And in order to log this cache you had to view Fahrenheit 9/11 and pull some random numbers from the movie to get the finial coordinates?

 

If I found it offensive, I wouldn't look for it.

 

As a non-religious person I don't understand the belief that because you look in the Bible something is being pushed on you. Are you afraid that reading it might change your views? I'm not - I'd read anything. I won't touch the bit about religion - it doesn't matter to me but it is hypicritical to push your view on somebody else in the name of preventing something from being pushed on you. If you don't like it - ignore it.

 

If this is about archiving anything that is offensive - I'll be using the search feature on the website very soon to eliminate everything that I find offensive. Somehow I think that if everybody did that we wouldn't end up with many caches.

Edited by southdeltan
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So all you have to do is put this disclaimer on your cache and even if you do intend to promote a particular belief system or viewpoint, you're in the clear.

 

To be honest, I don't know but I did find the exact same disclaimer on Biblically themed caches in various parts of the country. I would have to assume that an approver or employee of Groundspeak is placing this disclaimer on the Biblically themed caches.

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How would people feel if I placed a cache that was "Vote for John Kerry" And in order to log this cache you had to view Fahrenheit 9/11 and pull some random numbers from the movie to get the finial coordinates?

The name of the cache could possibly be presumed as "solicitation" However, other than that if you worded the cache carefully as the cache owner did in this case there shouldn' be a problem with this type of cache. Requiring somebody to view "Farenheight 9/11" (which I'm assuming is a book) in my opinion wouldn't be considered "solicitation" providing that it is publicly available without having to puchase it.

 

Thats the point being argued here.

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because having to find Bible versuses is a little too too much. You might be able to sway me if you say "how many letters are in Joe 3:12" and I could google the answer.

 

The response from some people remind me a pet peave of mine. I often find trail heads "littered" with religous materials. This same material is also left on my car at the trailheads too. Why do people do this? If I wanted information on their religion I would seek it out. While I understand that one of the foundations of some "major" religions is to get everyone to convert or subscribe to it, I should have a choice and not have it "forced" on me.

 

How would people feel if I placed a cache that was "Vote for John Kerry" And in order to log this cache you had to view Fahrenheit 9/11 and pull some random numbers from the movie to get the finial coordinates?

I think using the Bible, a historic book, whether you believe it or not, is not asking too much of someone to decode a cache. That's ridiculus! The Bible is online, and very searchable from any search engine.

 

I would hunt a cache if I had to watch a movie and get numbers from it, in order to find and log a cache. However, I wouldn't hunt and log a cache if I was required to vote for that particular person the cache was about, in order to get a smiley.

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Now, let's (all geocachers) continue debating why a geocache that was previously approved was suddenly archived even though there were no disparaging remarks made on the cache page....

To make an assumption (haha) it is probably the same reason why the cache owner didn't post this topic. Most people don't enjoy being a part in controversy.

 

Which brings up a good point. This topic raises the big reason why we try to keep these issues out of geocaching.

in full agreement...we should keep religous stuff out 'cause like sex and politics, quickly deteroriates into lot of name calling...not that there's anything wrong with sex, politics, or religion...but true gentlemenn don't discuss any of them in public 'cause it gets people so riled up :lol:

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However, let's be rational and calm here. TPTB are working on it and probably have more information than we have.

 

All I ask is that if the cache does not eventually get unarchived, I'd like to know the specific reason for it.

 

How long can it really take to work on it? TNG said he received a complaint about it. All he has to do is paraphrase the complaint to TPTB and then they could issue their final ruling and let us all know the specific reason for the rulings.

 

As I said previously, I do drink the Groundspeak koolaid.gif and do support most of what they do. I do pay them my $3/month and will continue to do so. I will also continue to promote geocaching.

 

I think we all just want to know why TNG archived it... the explicit, exact reason and we also want to know if this is a precedent setting event and if all other religious themed, specifically Christian, geocaches will be similarly archived. It's hard to play by the rules if the rules are not spelled out in black and white. We need black and white in this regard, not shades of grey.

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but true gentlemenn don't discuss any of them in public

 

Then I guess I'm not a true gentleman, although I do hold the door for people and do say "yes ma'am" and "no ma'am".

 

So, since you are now participating in this thread does this also now mean that you have lowered yourself to our standards of being non-true gentlemen? :lol:

Edited by jeff35080
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Now, let's (all geocachers) continue debating why a geocache that was previously approved was suddenly archived even though there were no disparaging remarks made on the cache page....

To make an assumption (haha) it is probably the same reason why the cache owner didn't post this topic. Most people don't enjoy being a part in controversy.

 

Which brings up a good point. This topic raises the big reason why we try to keep these issues out of geocaching.

in full agreement...we should keep religous stuff out 'cause like sex and politics, quickly deteroriates into lot of name calling...not that there's anything wrong with sex, politics, or religion...but true gentlemenn don't discuss any of them in public 'cause it gets people so riled up :lol:

If that's the case - then there are a lot of caches that need to be archived.

 

I understand the intent of the rule. However - it really seems that a helluva lot more people were offended by this being archived. I can't see how you can justify offending somebody to prevent somebody else from being offended.

 

The only way to avoid the controversy is to stay neutral. Banning religious references is not staying neutral.

 

TPTB avoids the controversy of the legitimacy of finds by staying out of any cache owner/finder arguements. If you want to avoid controversy - stay out of the issue.

 

sd

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The topic came to my attention around 5pm my time, and since this is a global site there are folks involved who are unavailable at certain times of the day, it does take longer than a few hours to sort out the sordid details.

 

Hydee works with the approvers and I don't override what she has to say since I don't actively get involved in the approval process any more. So give it a rest. I'm sure we'll come to some conclusion by the end of the day. The cache isn't going anywhere.

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