Passion Of The Rock Cache

[+Dagg]

Hmmm quite a thread here!  It’s not my business to make the rules here, but I would like to express my opinion.  I am “on-topic” and not trying to offend anyone.  I am a Christian so I very much liked the cache theme, and I also feel like everyone should know the verse – it’s the basis of our faith.  I don’t think of the bible as “religious”; the bible isn’t just a book (as I have read several times here) – it is God’s living word.  Not believing that doesn’t change the fact.  All caches reflect the owner’s hobbies, preferences, interests, favorite natural areas, interesting games, etc.  That is what makes caching interesting; and reasonable, moral folks know where to draw the line while others try to push that line.  I think some of the facts about this particular cache aren’t known to most of us, but we sure have a lively thread!  Best regards!

Comments like this are precisely why religious caches should not be permitted.

The fact that the approver did not contact the cache owner first, was wrong. But the approver has apologized for his error.

Keep it archived.

[+sept1c_tank]

Religion and geocaching. What a swell combination.

I don't care what they say! Now that's funny!

[+briansnat]

Does this thread prove the point about how any social, political, or religious agenda should be kept out of geocaching? Probably

 

But then what is a social, political or relgious agenda? Was my cache that reqired that the seeker answer questions about the life of Grover Cleveland political? How about if the subject was John Kerry, or GW Bush instead?

 

Is a cache where the owner makes a donation to a cause for each find pushing a social agenda? What about one that that solicits donations for a food bank?

 

How about a cache that required me to enter St. Patrick's Cathedral to get clues, or how about the cemetery at historic Trinity Church? Are those pusing a religious agenda, or just meant to show someone a interesting, historic site?

 

I can see banning caches that blatantly push an agenda, but there are a lot of caches in sort of a grey area. They may have a subtle agenda, or no agenda at all, but may appear to others to have one. Take my idea of a St Patrick's Cathedral based cache. The owner's only thought might be to bring people to a beautiful and historic edifice, but I'm sure someone out there will be offended and complain that its a religious cache.

Edited October 22, 2004 by briansnat

[+southdeltan]

What rights are being removed? It's just a cache using references from a simple book, right?

 

I think you're missing my point. People beleive that this is being archived because it is Christian. I'm not a religious person myself, but I know as well as many do any percieved attack on a religion is going to attack somebody. I didn't say it was the approvers or Groundspeak's intent.

 

And what beliefs do you think I have? You'd probably be wrong (back to the assumption point).

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with the arguement. I am sure that you haven't voiced any opinion one way or the other except that the line about "being ashamed" was probably a bit over the top and I agree with that.

 

Christianity has the lion share of the religious "market" so it's not unusual that there would be a larger share of religiously themed caches around Christianity, right? So are these caches being unfairly attacked? Not really. There are just more of them because geocaching.com is an english web site with the majority of folks living in a Christian based country.

 

I agree with that. It's also a fact that many people beleive that PC attempts to prevent controversy by banning subjects that people are passionate about is hypicritical. "I'm an athiest, so that offends me - stop cramming that down my throat" so "they" get rid of religious references - which pushes athiesm on the other person (in their view). I personally have never felt that GC.com was attacking Christianity or any religion but I am well aware that some people may not be clear on that.

 

Does this thread prove the point about how any social, political, or religious agenda should be kept out of geocaching? Probably.

 

I agree, and I'd like to quote El Diablo on this:

 

If this site wants to be neutral...so be it, If you ban religious caches, then you are taking a side. To be totaly neutral, you have to allow both sides.

 

I'm not pushing my beliefs on you....don't push yours on me.

 

Screw PC...if you are going to be neutral...then be neutral.

 

IF this cache remains banned, it's very likely that even though the intent is to prevent controversy, you'll have created a lot more than there was to begin with. It will look (to some people, based on the responses and numbers of comments possibly to many) that it's anti-Christian which makes this site look like it has an anti-Christian agenda.

 

I KNOW it doesn't - but I know that public opinion doesn't always go with the facts...

 

sd

[Jeremy]

I can see banning caches that blatantly push an agenda, but there are a lot of caches in sort of a grey area.

Hope I'm not pulling this out of context, but I agree with this statement. There are definitely grey areas. We are not a court of law so we use guidelines to make sure this does not become a platform for one agenda or another.

[+briansnat]

IF this cache remains banned, it's very likely that even though the intent is to prevent controversy, you'll have created a lot more than there was to begin with.

 

That's true, as we already see here. Even non-Christians and agnostics have posted responses in favor of this cache and there have been very few who've come out in support of Tennesee's action. It doesn't make sense to tick off so many people to protect the sensibilities of the handful of people who would be offended by a cache this.

Edited October 22, 2004 by briansnat

[+southdeltan]

While I don’t assume to have the wisdom of Solomon (oops, Biblical reference), I feel that changes to the cache and the listing can allow the cache to exist and be acceptable to all. Isn’t that preferable to all this petty arguing?

One of the many issues with this cache is the lack of communication between the approver and the owner. The cache was archived with no warning and a brief explanation. Emails by the owner were not replied to.

 

Add that with the fact that the theme is religion then people start making assumptions.

 

I can't fault somebody for being passionate about something that many base their lives around.

 

sd

[+southdeltan]

Hmmm quite a thread here!  It’s not my business to make the rules here, but I would like to express my opinion.  I am “on-topic” and not trying to offend anyone.  I am a Christian so I very much liked the cache theme, and I also feel like everyone should know the verse – it’s the basis of our faith.  I don’t think of the bible as “religious”; the bible isn’t just a book (as I have read several times here) – it is God’s living word.  Not believing that doesn’t change the fact.  All caches reflect the owner’s hobbies, preferences, interests, favorite natural areas, interesting games, etc.  That is what makes caching interesting; and reasonable, moral folks know where to draw the line while others try to push that line.  I think some of the facts about this particular cache aren’t known to most of us, but we sure have a lively thread!  Best regards!

Comments like this are precisely why religious caches should not be permitted.

The fact that the approver did not contact the cache owner first, was wrong. But the approver has apologized for his error.

Keep it archived.

It's obvious that religion is an issue here but so is perception.

 

This kind of post is the kind that some people can interpret as pure hypocrisy.

 

Some view it like this: You don't agree with their religion (or any religion) and you don't want to hear it - yet that also prevents the person from expressing their belief and that forces your belief on them.

 

(That being said, one can't determine your religious beliefs or lackthereof from your post).

 

It's a tricky issue.

 

sd

[+sept1c_tank]

...One of the many issues with this cache is the lack of communication between the approver and the owner. 

Now we're getting somewhere. Communication (or the lack there of) is the root of all evil.

[+SixDogTeam]

there have been very few who've come out in support of Tennesee's action.

I know this may not be exactly what you meant, Brian, but we support Tennessee's action 1000% . He is an excellent approver and did what he thought was proper and in the best interest of the sport, ( and I know you didn't mean to imply anything to the contrary, so don't get me wrong) and we thank him for his good work...(We've got your back, Tennessee) However, we think that the instant replay shows he erred in this case. We just think he should be over-ruled. And this wildly popular thread was suggested by him...

[Jeremy]

...One of the many issues with this cache is the lack of communication between the approver and the owner. 

Now we're getting somewhere. Communication (or the lack there of) is the root of all evil.

You're telling me. And, of course, any communication with Groundspeak falls on deaf ears.

[+Renegade Knight]

Given that Athiesm is presented as a religion anymore and that religions are obviously presented as religions all caches that mention a religion or mention athiesm by lack of mentioning a religion should be banned. Yeah that's the ticket.

 

Haven't they unarchived this cache yet so this thread can die? There is nothing family unfriendly about the cache. The book used is one kids are allowed to read. It's not prohibited by law to the underaged.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Why not let people hide and present caches themed as they wish? If they hide a political or a religious cache, we can choose to hunt or not.

 

El Diablo

Great! So can I now start allowing gay porn caches?

Not quite, unless you want to stop being "family-friendly" around here.

 

Last time I checked, though, the Bible was full of murder, rape, incest, damnation, etc, etc. However, it isn't referred to as non-family-friendy. In fact, kids are encouraged to have their own copy and to read it often. Can you say the same about your gay porn collection?

 

 

 

(I'm not implying that Jeremy has a gay porn collection, just making a point)

[Jeremy]

Even non-Christians and agnostics have posted responses in favor of this cache and there have been very few who've come out in support of Tennesee's action.

It's far easier to jump on the "winning side" and most people stay away from controversial topics.

[Jeremy]

Haven't they unarchived this cache yet so this thread can die?

It won't die. It will be resurrected into another topic, I'm sure.

[+rjb43nh]

SixDogTeam-“Condescending? Yes. Uncalled for? Yes. Doesn't belong? Probably. UnChristian? Now YOU've gone over the line. We don't need to be calling each other names here.

Please read what I said. “The condescending remark (You should be ashamed if you don't already know this one) in the listing, was unchristian, was totally uncalled for and doesn’t belong on any listing page, religious or not.“ I only said the remark was unChristian, not the person. I don’t think you could find anyone who would claim Jesus could have said that. I think that if the remark is, as you admit, condescending, uncalled for, and doesn’t belong, then it is also unChristian. As I mentioned, I can only take the remark at face value because I don’t know the person.

 

The question I posed is whether the cache can be changed so it continues to exist and meets the current cache guidelines. That will take some flexibility on both sides. I would like to see that happen and the cache be unachieved. Isn’t that your goal also?

[+The Puzzler]

Does this extend to usernames? I won't mention names because I don't want to screw anybody but I know of some names that are clearly solicitations.

I wonder. Do the terms proselytize and prostitute come from the same root origin? They do both involve socially controversial soliciting.

[+CapnJackSparrow]

I consider myself to be responsible for myself and, as such, can walk away from things that offend me.

 

However, it just seems to me that this topic is starting to "beat a dead horse" in that those who don't agree the cache should be archived will never agree and vice versa.

 

It looks like in the end it's still going to be left up to the approvers. Doesn't it?

 

I am very new to this sport and am just as addicted as the 2000's, but what I see here is hard feelings about something that is intended to be fun, get people outdoors, and bring people together. Not tear them apart.

 

IMHO, this is exactly why we have been "asked" to keep politics and religion out of it.

 

P.S. I Hate Rap Music

[+MacDaddy]

Threads like this are the best type of promotion for this site, increases traffic, gets people talking, and guess what, no one will quit caching because of it. Pick your battles, and take them to the correct arenas. This is a GAME SITE. There are a million places starting outside your door where you can go and exercise your rights. This is (as previously noted) a private site, not government run. There are other caching websites to choose from, so we do have a choice.

I laugh, as a Christian, a cacher, a father, at the expenditure of energy here, even my own.

We are truly blessed if this is the worst incursion on our "rights".

 

GOD BLESS ALL OF US!

 

MacDaddy

[+southdeltan]

Haven't they unarchived this cache yet so this thread can die?

It won't die. It will be resurrected into another topic, I'm sure.

Only if an approver suggests we start another thread about it.

 

 

sd

[+vree]

-rjb43nh, right on!

 

-unchristian? um, yeah! that's not a bad word, it's an accurate description. you know, that whole judge not thingy? shame on you for not recognizing that!

 

man. i feel like i just sat down to thanksgiving dinner with my family.

[+SixDogTeam]

“ I only said the remark was unChristian, not the person.

I think you're splitting hairs here, but anyway, you're right on the subject of my aims. My goal in my posts, is two-fold--to keep the discussion of a potentially volatile subject gentlemanly, and to get the cache re-activated...

[Jeremy]

man. i feel like i just sat down to thanksgiving dinner with my family.

My in-laws introduced me to the dinner bell. The rule is anyone can ring the bell and the subject at hand must immediately change. It works well when politics or religion are discussed at the table.

[+Divine]

My in-laws introduced me to the dinner bell. The rule is anyone can ring the bell and the subject at hand must immediately change. It works well when politics or religion are discussed at the table.

Boy would I have fun with that kind of bell.

[+SixDogTeam]

DING DING!!

[+sept1c_tank]

Ring!

[+Dagg]

man. i feel like i just sat down to thanksgiving dinner with my family.

My in-laws introduced me to the dinner bell. The rule is anyone can ring the bell and the subject at hand must immediately change. It works well when politics or religion are discussed at the table.

wanna trade inlaws?

[+CapnJackSparrow]

man. i feel like i just sat down to thanksgiving dinner with my family.

My in-laws introduced me to the dinner bell. The rule is anyone can ring the bell and the subject at hand must immediately change. It works well when politics or religion are discussed at the table.

Can't change the subject! Don't want to go "off topic"

[+Divine]

Waiting when my Infero caches will be archived...

[+fly46]

Last time I checked, though, the Bible was full of murder, rape, incest, damnation, etc, etc. However, it isn't referred to as non-family-friendy. In fact, kids are encouraged to have their own copy and to read it often. Can you say the same about your gay porn collection?

Well, last I knew most gay porn does NOT include rape, incest or damnation. In fact, most gay porn shows people being loving and caring and compassionate to one another.

 

I think we've solved it. Toss out all the bible caches, switch them with gay porn.

 

 

it’s the basis of our faith.  I don’t think of the bible as “religious”; the bible isn’t just a book

And most religions of the world would agree - as a counter argument. Yeah, it's the basis of *your* faith... the old testiment is the same religious book that jewish people would use... but most other religions - mine included - view it as a work of history and not religion.

 

 

As for the greek statue comment about two pages ago, for confirmation that those are actually dieties still worshipped, I direct you to 'pagan' religions.. Oh, and it's not just greek. It's Egyptian, Japanese, Roman, Norwegian, etc.... I'll spare you the complete religious explanation.

[+southdeltan]

Waiting when my Infero caches will be archived...

The background image on that cache is scary! I'm gonna hit the archive button on that before somebody else has to go through what I went through.

 

sd

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Last time I checked, though, the Bible was full of murder, rape, incest, damnation, etc, etc. However, it isn't referred to as non-family-friendy. In fact, kids are encouraged to have their own copy and to read it often. Can you say the same about your gay porn collection?

Well, last I knew most gay porn does NOT include rape, incest or damnation. In fact, most gay porn shows people being loving and caring and compassionate to one another.

My apologies, I haven't ever watched gay porn, so I didn't know that it was really about caring, loving, and other good family values.

 

How do you know so much about it?

[+SixDogTeam]

DINGDINGDING!!!

[+fly46]

Last time I checked, though, the Bible was full of murder, rape, incest, damnation, etc, etc. However, it isn't referred to as non-family-friendy. In fact, kids are encouraged to have their own copy and to read it often. Can you say the same about your gay porn collection?

Well, last I knew most gay porn does NOT include rape, incest or damnation. In fact, most gay porn shows people being loving and caring and compassionate to one another.

My apologies, I haven't ever watched gay porn, so I didn't know that it was really about caring, loving, and other good family values.

 

How do you know so much about it?

I lived in a college dorm for a year and one of my best friends was this deaf gay guy that lived in my building. We used to get together and watch porn for kicks.

 

You should watch it some time... Much more interesting than traditional porn. And it even has a story line usually!

[+southdeltan]

deaf

Hearing impared - and why is that an issue?

 

 

sd

[+wimseyguy]

Wow have a little afternoon crisis at work and miss an afternoon on the forums with the hottest topic since, hmm.. I'm not sure when. So I'll reply with my $.02 and minimize the quoting of previous posters. In fact I'm pretending to be a cacher visiting from out of town who might seek this cache.

1. Hmm a puzzle cache. Well I'm not crazy about them, but it's nearby so let's check it out.

2. Hmm seems to have a Christian theme to it. Looks like I need to read some Bible verses to find the true coords. Well, I'm not very religious but I can find a bible pretty easily so let's have at it. After all, it's just a cache.

3. Hmm seem to be interesting selections to read for the clues, but it's just a cache. I'm not gonna get converted or even baptized from reading a few bible verses.

4. What's the point of this comment here " (You should be ashamed if you don't already know this one.)? That's pretty arrogant even if we are in the Bible Belt. This line about the contents is kinda odd also "TPotR contains theme items, and also material relating to the POI. Take all you need, & don't worry about leaving anything unless you have related items". Maybe someone is promoting an agenda and not just hiding a cache?

5. Well it did take me to a nice spot, not a guardrail. It was an interesting puzzle, and not too hard to solve. I'm not so thin-skinned that I'm pushing the SBA button or emailing my local approver, but I do think this cache crosses a few lines with the sole contents being religious tracts. I hope they don't mind me leaving the sweet potato tracts behind. I do think they should edit that 'ashamed' comment out of the cache page though.

Oh well, it's just a game-on to the next cache. Sheesh 5 miles away-some density around here.

 

I won't even get into my own religious or political views here, since this is just a listing service forum for a game I and many others play with passion.

It does seem from what I can read that this cache does conform with the listed guidelines, but barely in two spots. I'm a little surprised that it was handled so heavily without better communication. Now all I can do is sit back and watch.

If a vote were to be taken mine would be cast for Unarchive, but please remove that "ashamed" comment from the cache page and loosen up the trading item suggestions. At the end of the day it's either just a cache, or a vehicle promoting an agenda. That choice is the cache owners and no one elses.

[+LSUFan]

deaf

Hearing impared - and why is that an issue?

 

 

sd

I guess if you watch it with someone who is deaf, then it's funnier. You probably need to watch it with Closed Caption turned on. Can you imagine reading the sound effects from a porn movie? I can, and it's hilarious thinking about it.

 

LSUFan

Edited October 22, 2004 by LSUFan

[+SixDogTeam]

wimseyguy, your voice of reason approach is not appreciated in this here thread....

[+The Puzzler]

Can you imagine reading the sound effects from a porn movie?

You're all really perverts!

 

Where do I get in line.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

You're all really perverts!

You just now figured this out?

[+Renegade Knight]

Amost all of my caches have an agenda. Most of the time I just didn't explain it in the cache description. Sometimes the agenda was political, sometimes based on a discussion in the forums, sometimes the agenda was to take you to some nice scenery. But the agenda is there just the same.

 

An agenda is not the reason this cache was archived. It's archival was fundamentaly related to soliciting for a religiouse cause. I must of missed the invitation to be saved. The one blip is a personal opinion. By the way, if you know western civilization you should be ashamed if you don't know who Jesus, Zeus, Baal, Odin, Isis, Mohamad et all are. Their followers shaped your world.

Edited October 22, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[Earthdog Patrick]

Hi, guys--just got in from a morning of shooting geese from my swift boat while listening to gospel music on my walkman--does anybody keep stats on the most views and replies to a thread in a single day (OR TWO)? What's got the record? are we going for one here? My vote is: UNARCHIVE!

[Wet Noodle]

The passion portrayed in this thread in and of itself is exactly why this cache, and all caches like it, should be archived.

 

As an atheist, I say there is no god, therefore there should be no religious caches.

[Dino Hunters]

Just an FYI...

 

This puzzle is an easy one to solve without a Bible since there are numerous searchable web based Bibles.

 

1: I like this cache idea.

2: I'd like it if it was another book too.

3: I am not offended by the cache.

4: I would not be offended by a cache using any other book used as a religious reference.

 

I too find the (you should be ashamed) comment a little bit rude, but no more so than I would find being told I should be ashamed of not knowing Newtons 3rd law of motion.

 

This topic to me is like when people complain about what is being shown on TV, while they sit there with the remote control in their hand and refuse to push the on/off button.

 

I am scratching my head trying to think of any theme that could not in some way be linked to a religion. So much of earths culture is intermixed with religion that it would be difficult to find a theme without a fairly short logical link to a religion. (other than a porn themed cache maybe)

 

All this thinking however has given me one possible idea for a puzzle cache. Maybe two !

[+Awsome Ev]

(You should be ashamed if you don't already know this one.)

 

I just want to know. Is this the line in the cache page that people are having issues with. If I haden't grown up in a church or did not know nothing about this I would be offeneded by this line in the cache page.

 

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches.  This means that the past approval of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the approval of a new cache.  If a cache has been posted and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be “grandfathered” and allowed to stand as is.

 

To me this makes me think that this sort of thing has been made a big controversary before. I know that there are the guidelines that have been dated. And realize that this cache was placed after the fact. My question is why if ( something related) this was a big controversary before why was the mistake made again? I do realize that people are only human and that people make mistakes and it is possible that the approver may have overlooked this. And I also realize tht the approvers do this because they appriciate the game. And I myself appriciate the approvers. I know that there are specific guidelines to be followed and can respect that.

 

Just a question.

[+bamageek]

Religion and geocaching. What a swell combination.

With some of the cache hiders we have down here you got to have a little religion to go out on the limbs that they take us!

[+SixDogTeam]

 

 

To me this makes me think that this sort of thing has been made a big controversary before. I know that there are the guidelines that have been dated. And realize that this cache was placed after the fact. My question is why if ( something related) this was a big controversary before why was the mistake made again? I do realize that people are only human and that people make mistakes and it is possible that the approver may have overlooked this. And I also realize tht the approvers do this because they appriciate the game. And I myself appriciate the approvers. I know that there are specific guidelines to be followed and can respect that.

 

Just a question.

Dunno, Ev. Was Tennessee the original approver? nor not? Anyway, what side do you come down on Amish Geocacher?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Deleted

Edited October 22, 2004 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Team Tigger International]

Guidelines ... We dont need any guidelines, for that matter What do we need Laws for heck why do we need Rules of any kind for ? If they are all made to be broken just because ? Imigine that a "Free" society without any guidelines or rules or laws ....

Let CAOS reign ! (yes I am being a smart A**)

 

Ashamed , of not knowing a bible verse humph .... I dont think so .

 

If you let one guideline be broken why not them all . Bring back Locationless , make it easier to get virtuals approved , heck why not even let people place caches directly on Railroad Tracks !

 

My 2 cents !

Star of Team Tigger International

Edited October 22, 2004 by Team Tigger International

[+SixDogTeam]

more blood has been shed throughout history in the name of religion than any other cause

I don't think we have to worry about dead geocachers as a result of this cache, one way or the other.