Liability For Contents -

1.2k · October 15, 2004

I was just visited by two police officers.

A fellow cacher (who had logged a find without further comment!) called the police and said that they had found some white powder in one of my caches, but then spilled it on the sand. They had the suspicion that it was an illegal substance.

Nothing could be found, but the police traced the cache to me and wanted to learn what this was all about.

I was obviously very cooperative, explained the rules about the absolute no-no on illegal substances, food, weapons, etc., and they were quite understanding, and they now intend to make an internal study of the game. They did not even remove the cache, since they understood it was a game piece on public property.

I asked them about liability, and they said that they would 'go after me' if something like this happened again. They later qualified that as 'contacting me for information purposes', but also said that they could not rule out that a civil lawyer might convince a court that if someone was harmed by a substance retrieved from my property, I might be liable for the results.

I am inclined to pull all my caches. Or at least write some sort of disclaimer on each cache page, saying that I am not responsible for the contents. Or perhaps this should be a standard default element of a cache page...

Someone must have been through this kind of thing before. Is there anyone who has some good suggestions as to how to deal with this?

Thanks!

1.3k · October 15, 2004

WTF?

Argh... What is wrong with people? How much police time has been wasted on chasing "white powder."

Sorry I can't add anything, just wanted to express my annoyance.

Maybe travisl or one of the other legal eagles will chime in.

October 15, 2004

I don't really have a good suggestion how to handle this. But it seems that everyone is paranoid all over the United States because of fear of lawyers and their lawsuits.It makes me Kinda sick to see so many people more fearful of lawyers than terrorists.

The only way to be sure not to be liable is to pull all caches and quit the game.

If the statement on the cache page that the seeker assumes all liability doesn't work nothing else will

3.5k · October 15, 2004

I found some white powder in a cache once! Lots of it!! Only it turned out not to be "the" cache. And the big baggie of white powder turn out to be someone's creamated remains! To make it even funnier all this took place in a blizzard on a mountain top!

October 15, 2004

Seriously, it's occurred to me - what is the liability of geocaching.com and/or the cache owners for all these caches? I mean, what if somebody fell off a cliff whilst nabbing a cache, or broke a leg while grabbing an urban micro, etc. Or... yep like some fool dropping drugs in a cache... g-knows all these things and more could, and likely eventually will happen.

When I started running adventure trips to Central America back in the 80's - even Lords of London wouldn't insure me. So I leastwise had everybody sign a liability waiver and - by some miracle made it through quite a lot of adventures (incl. an earthquake in Costa Rica) with few mishaps and no litigation.

But I just wonder about the liability of - the cache owners perhaps, but more likely Groundspeak 'cuz they're a commercial company after all...

1.3k · October 15, 2004

Seriously, it's occurred to me - what is the liability of geocaching.com and/or the cache owners for all these caches?

Well,Groundspeak calls itself a "listing service" so they limit their liabilities.

This is on every cache page:

"Note:To use the services of geocaching.com, you must agree to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer."

And this is in bold on the link: "Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache."

Whether that would hold up, I have no idea.

As for owners?

24.7k · October 15, 2004

I were to have a dislaimer it would be something like "You assume all risks seeking this cache..."

This is an example of BS. Nobody is responsible for themselves anymore but everyone is responsible for everyone else. That's bass ackwards.

I, personally wouldn't do a thing different though. (When it comes to hiding and seeking caches)

Edited October 15, 2004 by Renegade Knight

October 15, 2004

This is an example of BS. Nobody is responsible for themselves anymore but everyone is responsible for everyone else. That's bass ackwards.

And that, folks, is what Political Correctness has gotten us.

I, for one, have no use for PC. It has caused more bad than good IMO.

3.5k · October 15, 2004

This has been gone over before. Anyone can sue you for anything. No one will sue you unless they think they will come out on top, because of the expense and hassle. Basically, if you willfiully and knowingly lead someone into a hidden hazzard that you knew about but did not warn about, then you could get legally nailed for that. Otherwise, it is the cache finders responsibility to take responsibility for his or her own actions.

3.5k · October 15, 2004

In the case of the white powder in a cache box, or anything in a cache box, if you didn't put it there and didn't know about it, I don't think there would be any case at all. An example. Your mailbox on a stand down the street. Your mailbox. If some idiot put something in it, yes, the police will come and ask you what you know, but what liability would you have over that as long as you did not put it there or knew of the exisitance of something in your mailbox? Should I remove my mailbox because this might happen?

3.5k · October 15, 2004

...And don't bother asking me what my avatar means,... I have no idea!

October 15, 2004

I was just telling a fellow cacher on Wednesday that it would be some stupid action from another cacher that would drive me away from this game. That was stupid. I take it the stupid jerk didn't contact you before the police. Hmm... Peace, Nolenator

October 15, 2004

I was just telling a fellow cacher on Wednesday that it would be some stupid action from another cacher that would drive me away from this game. That was stupid. I take it the stupid jerk didn't contact you before the police. Hmm... Peace, Nolenator

I had just finished writing something like that to Bugel. If I were a geocacher who found white powder in a cache, I would dump it and send a private e-mail to the owner. I would not call the police. Kind of like poking yourself (or geocaching) in the eye with a stick.

Perhaps there's a valid argument for involving the police, but it would not be my instinct to do so.

October 15, 2004

While doing maintenance on a cache, we found a small vial of pot seeds had been left. It came with instructions to plant and use for medicinal purposes. The home made, waterproof vial was too cool so we kept it and disposed of the seeds.

No matter our position on pot, it clearly had no place in a cache. And we would have removed the white powder also without giving it another thought.

Don't know why that was so hard for the cacher who called the cops.

3.5k · October 15, 2004

First of all, everyone jumps to conclusions. Whose to say what the white powder was. Everyone is thinking cocaine. BUT why would someone leave that in a cache? My understanding is that it is not cheap. People steal and kill for the stuff. It is addictive. A user would not be so wasteful. Leaving it for a friend, buyer? Unlikley! Cachers might find it. The idea of a GPS type cache would work for them, but they would not advertise or use a cache the is posted. Thus my conclusion is that it was nothing of importance. Maybe baby powder. Either left in the cache as a trade item, or as a hoax trying to spook people into thinking it was cocaine. If hoax, why? Common plunder-vandel types, or targeting a cache for revenge.

Then again, if it was on the beach, maybe it was natural. Dried salt powder inside the box.

9.5k · October 15, 2004

Either left in the cache as a trade item, or as a hoax trying to spook people into thinking it was cocaine.

Or anthrax... that's the more common scare right now.

In either case, I think you might be onto something there what with the recent events Bugel has gone through with the car break-in and his cache being declared placed in a sensitive area.

3.5k · October 15, 2004

(See, I was originally going to put under my avartar "2'sq". Kind of a puzzle avatar. You know... 2sq foot = one foot by two foot....oh, never mind.)

9.5k · October 16, 2004

Ok folks... we really need to get EraSeek out and on his feet again.

3.5k · October 16, 2004

October 16, 2004

...action from another cacher that would drive me away from this game.

Nolenator, I noted your archives. Wish I could contend that your decision was capricious. Fact is I've considered pulling my caches (even though they are only a few) based on the concerns expressed here.

3.5k · October 16, 2004

Take a breath before you react. It is easy to get scared by these things. There are things you can do to reinforce your postion if it worries you. Post a short disclaimer on your pages has I have been doing on some of mine. If you are worried about contents of your caches, post that they are logbook only and nothing is to be left in them. All of this is probably an over reaction, but it shows clear intent by you, if the worse actually happens.

October 16, 2004

Awww Nolenator, I thought you were joking about pulling all of your caches. I was hoping someday to find the time to do Something Evil in West Seattle. I hope you give it a bit more thought.

There's stupid people who do irrational things in every hobby, but you can't just quit having fun and let the stupid people take it all. :mad:

Ahh well, you'll do what's right for you. I just thought I'd let you know that your caches will be missed.

Why is caching morale so low in the PNW lately?

October 16, 2004

I was just visited by two police officers.
A fellow cacher (who had logged a find without further comment!) called the police and said that they had found some white powder in one of my caches, but then spilled it on the sand. They had the suspicion that it was an illegal substance.

one imagines it would have worked out a lot better if you'd been notified, and called the cops yourself. who knows what this person said, if they even explained the game. seems obvious they could have contacted you pretty easily if they logged a find.

Why would someone call the police first on a cache? I've called the police about things *near* a cache, but not a cache itself. (Of course, the cops turned out to be useless and the cache owner ended up CITOing his way to a visit from the hazmat team and into quarantine for a few hours... but that's a story for later.) And in that case, other cachers had made note of the things in the cache's logs way beforehand.

9.5k · October 16, 2004

Awww Nolenator, I thought you were joking about pulling all of your caches. I was hoping someday to find the time to do Something Evil in West Seattle. I hope you give it a bit more thought.

There's stupid people who do irrational things in every hobby, but you can't just quit having fun and let the stupid people take it all.

Ahh well, you'll do what's right for you. I just thought I'd let you know that your caches will be missed.

Why is caching morale so low in the PNW lately?

That's a true knee jerk reaction and it's a bummer that you would give up so easily. I almost had the opportunity to hunt your Schmitz Preserve Park cache, and had it on my to do list.

But if all it was going to take was one stupid person to cause you to leave this hobby, then you were probably looking for a way out anyway. Hope you change your mind but if not, sorry to see you go.

3.7k · October 16, 2004

Awww Nolenator, I thought you were joking about pulling all of your caches. I was hoping someday to find the time to do Something Evil in West Seattle. I hope you give it a bit more thought.

There's stupid people who do irrational things in every hobby, but you can't just quit having fun and let the stupid people take it all.

Ahh well, you'll do what's right for you. I just thought I'd let you know that your caches will be missed.

Why is caching morale so low in the PNW lately?

Me too! C'mon, Nolenator, don't let the turkeys get you down. While I was stunned by the behavior of the Unknown Geocacher who called the police, changing my caching behavior or disabling my caches never entered my mind. MA had a cache 'disarmed' by the Bellevue bomb squad a couple months back....this stuff happens.

People unfortunately die in traffic accidents, too, but I'm still driving. Your chance of being in a fender bender are undoubtedly higher than being arrested for illegal substances in your caches.

October 16, 2004

Those of you who know me, know that I find humor in almost any situation. I didn't find any of this funny. I only disabled my caches, so don't worry too much. I guess it was just a bad geocaching day. If I could send stupid jerk a little personal flame it might make me feel better.

On a lighter note, I went and did a little maintenace on the first waypoint of Something Evil... this morning and it should be a little easier to find. See I am not giving up. Thanks for all the love guys and gals.

Peace, Nolenator

Edited October 16, 2004 by nolenator

October 16, 2004

Speaking of "lighter notes," I was about to offer to adopt Something Evil... if only 'cuz then you would have to give me it's secrets!

Glad to see it's back.

9.5k · October 16, 2004

Those of you who know me, know that I find humor in almost any situation. I didn't find any of this funny. I only disabled my caches, so don't worry too much. I guess it was just a bad geocaching day. If I could send stupid jerk a little personal flame it might make me feel better.

On a lighter note, I went and did a little maintenace on the first waypoint of Something Evil... this morning and it should be a little easier to find. See I am not giving up. Thanks for all the love guys and gals.

Peace, Nolenator

Very cool. Glad to hear of your change of heart! :mad:

1.5k · October 16, 2004

Those of you who know me, know that I find humor in almost any situation. I didn't find any of this funny. I only disabled my caches, so don't worry too much. I guess it was just a bad geocaching day. If I could send stupid jerk a little personal flame it might make me feel better.

On a lighter note, I went and did a little maintenace on the first waypoint of Something Evil... this morning and it should be a little easier to find. See I am not giving up. Thanks for all the love guys and gals.

Peace, Nolenator

Super-glad you're hanging in there, Nolenator! :mad:

October 16, 2004

...See I am not giving up...

Whew! Glad to see you've come to your (dubious) senses. :mad:

g-knows the Planet is verily rife with it's fair share of idiots, but once we start giving them the power to run our lives - nay suck the joy from our daily grind... all is surely lost indeed.

Besides Nol, if you dump all your wondrously clever caches, then morally you'll not be able to likewise hunt for others. And Clam Cowboy (with a certain beneficent sparkly gold bison) doth await the deft fingers of the PM...

P.S. oh goody, I just now see that Lincoln Logs by you and the diminutive Peace Mongerette is back in business. I've had the maps/pages for a West Seattle run this weekend ready and waiting all week - and that brilliantly fun puppy was at the top of my list - yea!

1.2k · October 16, 2004

First of all, thank you all for your encouraging words, here and in personal e-mail. I am feeling much better now. I am inclined to believe that it was just some sand, and I will follow Eraseek's advice about the disclaimer notes on the cache pages. I am also glad to hear that Nolenator is not really pulling his caches.

Yesterday I visited most of my active caches around town, and found that they were all in fine shape, without suspicious stuff inside. I checked out some other caches in town as well, and they were in fine shape too. I am now less inclined to think that someone was targeting me personally, or geocaches in town in general.

I also visited the cache in question. I was positively impressed with the way that the police officers had rehidden the cache. I also nobody had signed the log since 10/9, and I suddenly realized that a police officer would be very unlikely to refer to people by their geocaching handles if they know their real names. I had understood that the person who logged the cache 5 days before the police visited me had been the person who had informed the police - something I found weird in its own right, but I now realize that the police must have mentioned that person as 'previous' finder, and that the person who called the police was someone who did not log the log book, and who also did not log online. Yet, he knew enough about geocaching to explain the sport to the police in such a positive way that the police didn't mind leaving the cache in place. If the person really thought it was a hazardous substance, I can understand that they dropped everything and didn't sign the log. But why didn't they sign it after the police went through the cache and through the log book, and approved of the content? And why didn't they claim their find online? I hope that person will come forward. I may also ask the police to tell me who it was, so I can contact that person privately and find out what exactly happened.

I'll keep you posted if I find out what happened, or about further developments.

1.1k · October 16, 2004

I only disabled my caches, so don't worry too much. I guess it was just a bad geocaching day.

Wow! I didn't think you were serious either. In fact I was not sure that was even possible :mad: . Glad you had a change of heart.

What would you have done with all those cool coins anyway .

9.5k · October 16, 2004

First of all, ...

=-=-edited for brevity=-=-

Glad to hear of this Bugel! I hate to think anybody would be targeting you or your caches.

As with Nolenator, I understand your initial post was just a venting of steam. Cache on gents!

Cheers!

TL

Edited October 16, 2004 by TotemLake

1.1k · October 16, 2004

BTW guys every cache page has these words on it.

Note:To use the services of geocaching.com, you must agree to the terms and conditions in our disclaimer.

Now it is written to protect Groundspeak but this sentence stands alone in large bolded letters.

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

October 16, 2004

My horrorscope was a 6 yesterday, I should have known better. Peace, Nolenator

3.5k · October 16, 2004

(note to self: reads horrorscope. wears grass skirts. )

1.9k · October 16, 2004

If it were not for the effort I have gone through to devise a couple caches of mine I would have archived them all several times over because of just this sort of thing.

I still think about doing it every once in a while.

Maybe one day I'll pull oll my caches and leave this game... for now I have a PQ to generate for an upcomng trip.

On second thought... Maybe I'll pull most of them...

I wonder, if a cacher had a virtual cache at a location where a dealer did drug drops, would they be liable?!? Sounds just bout as assinine to me as what happened here.

3.5k · October 16, 2004

Nothing really happened here! Cops came, not quite knowing what to make of Geocaching, said "someone thought they found white powder in one of your boxes. What can you tell us about it?"

So what happened? People who found said white powder freak, cops who did not find said white powder freaked, geocaching community freaked.... Over what? Nobody knows! Everybody just freaked!

It's just a lesson, folks! An oppurtunity to take a little forethought if anything turn out to be real! That's all. Be carefull, think ahead. No need to hide from life.

October 17, 2004

My therapist even thinks I am crazy. Argh! Peace, Nolenator

3.5k · October 17, 2004

(amend note to self: checks horrorscope, wears grass skirt, sees therapist. )

October 17, 2004

My therapist even thinks I am crazy. Argh! Peace, Nolenator

Oh heck, if you want to have a real implosion, just contact me. But I think you've already been loved out of it! You're an important member of the local geocaching community, and an important person because you're you!

Be well, and

Peace,

KB

3.5k · October 17, 2004

(and does a pretty dam good job of climbing a mountain too!)

October 17, 2004

..........

I'll keep you posted if I find out what happened, or about further developments.

Well, good. If there should ever be any more trouble 'round here, we'll enter this thread as proof of your complete innocense.

I can see us all swearing in at court. Name please?

Uh, Bumbling B's, sir. (Oh, yeah, that would carry some weight, wouldn't it?)

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