Trade Items

[GPS-Hermit]

I just got a post indicating that a knife was removed from my cache due to the fact that it wasn't a recommended item. Does this include small useful pocket knives or is this a call to not put weapons in the cache. Just want to hear from other on this - I have put and taken pockets knives into caches several times thinking it was not a problem - I would avoid such things as a ninja type weapons and other ugly curved blade narly bad looking stuff - etc. what do ya'll think????

[+The Puzzler]

I am a parent of two yong boys that have been geocaching since they were 4 and 7 and each excitedly gravitates to any knife they see, until recently when they've finally seen enough that other toys can take precidence.

 

Personally, I think those small swiss army style knives make inexpensive and very exciting swag. Personally, I think they add to each cache that we find them in. I agree with the OP.

 

Because of the condemnation of knives by many on this site and my other prefered trade items, I have never left a knife in a cache (or taken one for that matter).

 

My two cents: Parents are almost always present when kids find caches. Small knives are exciting swag for kids. I have no problem with them whatsoever as swag.

[+carleenp]

Knives were listed as impermissible in caches because some land owners and park officials expressed concerns about them. Thus, there was concern about caching being banned or highly regulated in some areas because of the possibility that knives and other items might be left in the caches. Leaving a knife could also be illegal in some areas.

 

So, I understand and respect the rule. With that said, yes, they could be nice trade items in many instances. I think that in reality they generally do not/would not cause a problem. But the problem is the smaller group of people out there who think differently and have the power to make caching difficult in areas because of it. I would rather see knives banned from caches, than caches banned altogether.

[Bobthearch]

I think the rule is "No knives". Simple rule that applies to small pocket knives or utility knives too.

 

-Bob

[+The Puzzler]

So, this brings us to the spirit of the rule and how to self-regulate accordingly.

 

Clearly, the no-knives "rule" has been present for some time, and continues to be made clear in these public forums. By the way, I have never seen it "in writing" other than through discussion in the forums. Can anyone tell me where this rule is stated formally?

 

I would not choose to have such a broad and absolute rule if I were god, luckily, I am not. However, I am willingly support this community in choosing to be more cautious than I would if it were just me. I hate seatbelt laws also.

 

But, is it the responsibility, or even the right, of a cacher to remove a knife that someone else has traded into a cache? Wouldn't that fall under the umbrella of the cache owner's responsibility?

 

If a cacher sees a trail being worn to a cache (frankly a more serious problem than knives for at least some land managers) we do not consider it acceptable for a cacher to move the cache to a "better location".

 

I would suggest that policing knives (and other non-dangerous, inappropriate trade items) is the responsibility of the cache owner, not a cache visitor.

 

Of course, for those cachers that fancy themselves "community police" a "fair" trade for any knives they find would be well within their rights, even if removing them without trading for them is not.

[+Renegade Knight]

Knives are a point of contention. Most cachers I know love to find them as trade items. A few had them as signature items.

 

However as Carleenp has said Land Managers have concerns and to keep the hobby viable (since parks and public lands are vital to this RASH) knives were removed as accepable trade items.

 

The only way to change that is to change the thinking of the land managers. Geocachers in general don't have an issue with them.

[+greende]

So, this brings us to the spirit of the rule and how to self-regulate accordingly.

 

Clearly, the no-knives "rule" has been present for some time, and continues to be made clear in these public forums. By the way, I have never seen it "in writing" other than through discussion in the forums. Can anyone tell me where this rule is stated formally?

 

I would not choose to have such a broad and absolute rule if I were god, luckily, I am not. However, I am willingly support this community in choosing to be more cautious than I would if it were just me. I hate seatbelt laws also.

 

But, is it the responsibility, or even the right, of a cacher to remove a knife that someone else has traded into a cache? Wouldn't that fall under the umbrella of the cache owner's responsibility?

 

If a cacher sees a trail being worn to a cache (frankly a more serious problem than knives for at least some land managers) we do not consider it acceptable for a cacher to move the cache to a "better location".

 

I would suggest that policing knives (and other non-dangerous, inappropriate trade items) is the responsibility of the cache owner, not a cache visitor.

 

Of course, for those cachers that fancy themselves "community police" a "fair" trade for any knives they find would be well within their rights, even if removing them without trading for them is not.

It is in writing. Under the FAQ section under what not to put into a cache.

[+carleenp]

Clearly, the no-knives "rule" has been present for some time, and continues to be made clear in these public forums.  By the way, I have never seen it "in writing" other than through discussion in the forums.  Can anyone tell me where this rule is stated formally?

 

It is in the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines.

 

Specifically:

 

Cache Contents

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages. . . .

 

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

Edited October 14, 2004 by carleenp

[+YuccaPatrol]

#1) I don't leave knives in caches since it is considered unacceptable, although I think they are fantastic trade items

 

#2) I love finding knives because I have a responsibility to remove an unacceptable item for the safety of those who can't be trusted around pointy things. I have only found one, a big honkin antler/bone handled hunting knife with leather sheath. I did leave a trade item for it, but it was not an even trade since I did not have a better item and it was my "responsibility" to remove the dangerous item.

[+The Puzzler]

It is in writing. Under the FAQ section under what not to put into a cache.

I was unable to find any "what not to put in a cache" heading in the FAQ section. Or any text containing the word "knife".

 

I was able to find knives included in the taboo list as shown by Carleen in a previous post.

 

Thus, the guidlines do tell cache OWNERS not to include knives. But, there is nothing I found that lists inappropriate trade items for people hunting caches.

 

But hey, nitt picky text possitioning is not the topic of the thread.

[+carleenp]

I was able to find knives included in the taboo list as shown by Carleen in a previous post.

 

I quoted it from the link in my post!

 

In the link I gave, it is under "cache contents"

 

If a cache has a knife or is later found to have a knife, it can be disabled until removed. I suppose people can trade them, but of course one showing in a listing can lead to the cache being disabled, which yes, I suppose is then the owner's worry, but the upshot is that placing kinves in caches is a bad idea.

Edited October 14, 2004 by carleenp

[+clearpath]

Cache Contents

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages. . . .

 

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

It would be difficult to justify leaving a knife in a cache the way the rule is written. I to think its sad. To me a pocket knife is more of a tool than a knife. Realistically, how do we go about trying to change this rule? Maybe we institute a ban on blades that are over 3 inches in length (or something similiar).

[+The Puzzler]

I did leave a trade item for it, but it was not an even trade since I did not have a better item and it was my "responsibility" to remove the dangerous item.

This is more to the point of this thread.

 

Is it my responsibility, or that of any other cacher to remove a knife from a cache?

 

If one of us feels compelled and is willing to trade for the knife (let's avoid issues of even or better trades for now), then, of course, removing the knife is not beyond the cacher's purview.

 

BUT, is it acceptable to remove a knife without trading as well as you can for it?

 

On principal, I think not. I think only the cache owner has any responsibility for policing his/her cache for non-dangerous items without trading.

[GPS-Hermit]

Well - that is pretty good input from many of you and I have lots of great stuff to put in caches other than knives so I will keep the piece and avoid this item. I kind hate the 'it could be a problem' - I could get lost, drop my GPS, fall off a cliff, get eaten by big foot, or breathe in a fungus unknown to all scientist - so why cache in the first place. I don't like catering to cry babies. But I will! Thanks for the input and no more knives from this boy! Cache On!! And have a ball!

[+The Puzzler]

I quoted it from the link in my post! 

I'm sorry. I must not have been clear.

 

I had no problem finding your quote Carleen. It was spot on.

 

The point I was trying to make (one of dubious value I might add) was that the only place knives are discouraged is in text refering to the hiding of caches. I did not find any reference to knives in the general FAQ section (as suggested by someone else).

 

Thus, a geocacher that is not hiding caches may not read the only text that discorages the hiding of knives.

 

To belabor this relatively pointless point (I must have too much time on my hands), the actual text on geocaching.com that we have been reffering to suggests that caches with knives listed may not be enabled by the approver. At no point is the TRADING of knives directly discoraged. It is only inferred by the guidlines for creating caches.

[+YuccaPatrol]

Well, when I traded for the knife, I traded the best item I had with me. It was my second or third cache and I had read in these forums that knives were not allowed and should be removed because they are dangerous. At the time I believed I was doing the most responsible thing, and I do not regret it or feel bad that I traded down. I did the best I could and acted with the best intentions.

 

The cache was in a small city park behind the little league size baseball field. Any kid who wanted to go look for lost baseballs and walked down that little trail to check out a small creek could have easily stumbled upon this cache. It really was not an appropriate place to leave a knife, much less a non-folding 6 inch blade.

 

In a more perfect world, I would think nothing of leaving a small swiss army knife or multitool in a well hidden cache located several miles up a hiking trail where children are unlikely to be playing unsupervised.

 

Now that I think about it, although the knife is large, it is the sort of very cheap, crude and chunky item you might see for sale at a flea market or import shop or TV Shopping Channel that sells 200 assorted knives for $99.99. Heck, my limited edition MINI Cooper keychain was probably a significant trade UP!

 

Edited October 14, 2004 by YuccaPatrol

[+carleenp]

I had no problem finding your quote Carleen. It was spot on.  .  .  .

 

To belabor this relatively pointless point (I must have too much time on my hands), the actual text on geocaching.com that we have been reffering to suggests that caches with knives listed may not be enabled by the approver.  At no point is the TRADING of knives directly discoraged.  It is only inferred by the guidlines for creating caches. 

I think I might have accidentally read your word "able" as "unable" when I replied. Ooops!

 

Anyway, it still is clear that knives are not wanted in caches listed on the site. Hence, the site will disable a cache that shows a knife in it. Yes, it is the owner's responsibility to then remove it. But the polite thing would be not to put an owner in that position. I know if one of my caches got disabled because a knife was in it, I would be grumbling to myself about the person who left it there as I drove out to the site to remove it.

 

On other subjects raised, I do trade for knives and try to leave something of equal value. I don't play cache cop and write the owner or the person who left the knife and whine though. I understand why people believe they are good trade items. I also believe they are good trade items except for the problem of those park managers who disagree......

Edited October 14, 2004 by carleenp

[+bigredmed]

Now that kind of knife clearly exceeds the bounds of good sense even if it weren't for the rule.

 

The thing that gets me is the number of times people will graze by the rule by leaving a "keychain" which is really a little swiss army knife or a tool that is really a mini leatherman.

 

These are great swag and I love finding them as do others who have posted. I wonder if we could agree on a new rule and that is to agree on no knife caches depending on the area you are in.

 

We already have bright line rules regarding the NPS versus the federal land controlled by the BLM, why not a bright line rule that says "cache owners will list land ownership/control and unacceptable swag in the cache description."

[+wimseyguy]

Funny observation-almost every time I have gone to my RDU TB Hotel Cache for a maintainence visit I have found some sort of knife there.

Not once has there been a log entry either online or physical. I gettiing quite the little collection. Maybe I'll pass them out at the next event.

[+Team Perks]

Just turn the knife into a travel bug and you're home free.

 

I've seen knifes, bullets, and even food (if you consider SPAM to be food) turned into TB's.

[Keystone]

I am the reviewer for new caches hidden in Ohio, a State with well over a dozen different geocaching policies. Permit processes are overlooked regularly -- I have six or so caches on hold right now because the owner did not obtain the required permit. And now it's proposed that the cache owner be responsible for determining whether cache contents are in compliance with local laws? That didn't work too well in the past. A single keychain pen knife, found in a cache by a county park employee, resulted in a permanent ban on caches in that Ohio County. The rule linked to above at least gives us something to point at when a land manager complains to Geocaching.com about "dangerous items" left in geocaches. It also helps in convincing land managers to allow caches in their park, because there are listing standards here. Concern about inappopriate items in caches is one of the top three things I hear when dealing with land managers.

[+greende]

It is in writing.  Under the FAQ section under what not to put into a cache.

I was unable to find any "what not to put in a cache" heading in the FAQ section. Or any text containing the word "knife".

 

I was able to find knives included in the taboo list as shown by Carleen in a previous post.

 

Thus, the guidlines do tell cache OWNERS not to include knives. But, there is nothing I found that lists inappropriate trade items for people hunting caches.

 

But hey, nitt picky text possitioning is not the topic of the thread.

OK, someone may have to help me out here as I am not the most compter literate person on tne globe. I went to "Getting Started" forum, clicked on "Pinned Topic-Read 1st-FAQ", clicked on Official Geocaching.com FAQ's" just to the right of Jeremy's picture, then scrolled down to the heading "What shouldn't be in a cache".

I would have Markwelled or linked it but I don't know how.

 

David

 

Edit: I also don't think knives are bad items but to keep the peace, I comply.

Edited October 14, 2004 by greende

[+carleenp]

OK, someone may have to help me out here as I am not the most compter literate person on tne globe. I went to "Getting Started" forum, clicked on "Pinned Topic-Read 1st-FAQ", clicked on Official Geocaching.com FAQ's" just to the right of Jeremy's picture, then scrolled down to the heading "What shouldn't be in a cache".

I would have Markwelled or linked it but I don't know how.

 

Here is the quote from The FAQ:

 

What shouldn't be in a cache?

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, ammo, knives, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache. Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches, so use some thought before placing an item into a cache.

 

[+greende]

Thanks carleen

[+Team Neos]

I hearby solemly promise that as a cache owner, I will willingly, and without hesitation, remove any knives that find their way into my cache. In fact, you other owners may feel free to send me any knives that you find in your caches. I will take personal responsibility for keeping them out of your cache as well as my cache. I will not place them into another cache. I will remove them from public property, and place them in a secured location in my private domain, where no child will ever be allowed to touch them without parental presence and permission.

[+Sputnik 57]

I understand the rule, and comply, but it's shame that multi-tools are caught up in this. I guess I just need to keep looking for multi-tools that don't include a knife. I think they make great swag.

[solohiker]

Knives and multitools? You people are living large. I had to remove a few of my caches when my permits expired and I brought home a used range ball ball, a bumper sticker, piece of what was once hard candy, used crayon, fake $100 bill.

 

In my opinon these are the trade items that need to be banned.

 

The first rule of geocaching as defined by me, "No matter how worthless the junk a person puts into a cache it will be replaced with something of lesser value."

[+hedberg]

I would avoid placing dead bodies in a cache..