Shame Shame

[ju66l3r]

The original thread was closed by its creator, but I thought I'd make sure this point was discussed, since it hasn't been brought up recently and I think Geo-Explorer got a bad rap on the knuckles wrongly (can't see what help he asked for though anymore).

 

Asking for help on puzzle caches is not wrong. Asking for the solution....or someone else to do the puzzle for you is wrong. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for a hand in solving the puzzle. For example, sputnik's answer in the other thread (pointing out that the constants can be found on the web necessary to solve the puzzle) is a small nudge in the right direction that helps a person find their track again...nothing more than what their GPSr is going to do once they head off into the woods to find the cache.

[+Doc-Dean]

I would agree the guy juggling the etrexs.

 

I would never turn down helping someone with a puzzle if I thought I could help. Giving away a puzzle that you have already done is a completely different issue.

Lord knows, there's been many times when I could use help with puzzles!

[+Team Perks]

Asking for hints is fine. Asking for the answers is a little different...and that's what I gathered the previous poster was asking for.

Edited October 11, 2004 by Team PerkyPerks

[+Firehouse16]

I want the solutions. Having only 6.2 minutes to figure out and find a cache doesn't leave me much time to do puzzles!~ Don't blame me, I just happen to hang out with the #4 cacher in the world and he makes the rules!

[+bumblingbs]

I think proper protocol would involve asking the cache owner for a hint, if one was needed. That way the cache owner can decide if s/he wishes to offer help.

If I had a puzzle cache, and "A" solved it on their own, and then "B" went directly to "A" for a hint, I might not be delighted.

[CoyoteRed]

My take from the OP was they had no clue where to begin. The puzzle was fairly complex. That would mean a lot of hand holding in a fairly permanent medium where others can see. I though the Perky was a lot more tactful than some others could have been. The OP probably took it a little harder than intended.

 

My take is puzzles are supposed to be puzzles. They are supposed to have varying degrees of difficulty and they are supposed to stretch one's mind. Having the answer hand-fed to you doesn't accomplish this.

 

Never be afraid of walking away from a challenge until you are able to revisit it better prepared. Even then, realize you can't get them all.

[+The Puzzler]

Being a fan of puzzles, I feel obliged chime in on this one.

 

I believe the fundamental goal of both geocaching and puzzle solving in general is to have fun.

 

Some people decode geocaching "hints" before searching for a geocache. Others only decode as a last resort. Each decodes to maximize their personal fun, not some high-falut'n ideal, unless that high-falut'n idea is part of the fun.

 

Puzzles are the same deal. If people don't have fun doing puzzles, they shouldn't do them, i.e., they can do other geocaches instead. But, for those of us that love puzzles, there is a point that even we quit having fun and need a little nudge to keep up our spirits and be reminded that a solution is possible.

 

As a rule, I never want to spoil someone's fun by giving them the answer to a puzzle, but nudges, clues, hints, etc., that still leave at least some of the solving fun to be had are an important part of having fun - our central and primary goal.

 

So IMHO, I believe answers are unacceptable unless someone has struggled for a very long time and has just completely lost interest because of truely being beat. Prior to that time, which most all of us have surely reached at least once or twice in our lives, a string of increasingly "helpful" hints can add significantly to the fun.

 

As to who provides the hints, I don't see any moral imparatives here. Whoever can provide the most provacative, fun, useful and timely hints should not hesitate. Afterall, we help maintain each other's caches. We can also help maintain fun for other geocachers by providing quality hints when asked.

[+El Diablo]

I personally believe that only the cache owner should give hints or clues. If I hide a cache that is a level 5 due to a puzzle having to be solved, then I don't want some one else turning it into a level 2 by giving out hints. I have no problem with people teaming to find the solution.

 

El Diablo

[+ShadowAce]

I personally believe that only the cache owner should give hints or clues. If I hide a cache that is a level 5 due to a puzzle having to be solved, then I don't want some one else turning it into a level 2 by giving out hints. I have no problem with people teaming to find the solution.

 

El Diablo

This is exactly my take on it.. Nice Diablo..

 

Someone (usually a friend) calls and says, hay new puzzle, lets tackle it.. I am all for it. Someone calls and says "Hay you solved XXXX, can you help me?" I politly tell them that I cannot assist them, but if they contact the cache owner, most often help will come.

 

We have Many puzzle caches in Arizona and I take a certain pride in the fact that some have very few finds and my name is one of them.. When I hear about another cacher helping people solve puzzles it takes alot of the pride away.

 

I consider it the same as Sandy climbing the mountain and bringing the 3/5 cache down the 4 miles of cliffs and hiking to the parking lot so 15 others can sign the log before she takes it back. Giving away the answer to someones puzzle ruins the effort the cache owner put into it and belittles the efforts of those who solved it.

[GeoWorms]

Isn't a cache kind of like a work of art?

 

Once you put it out there you have to let people approach it on their own terms. If that means they'll have more fun with someone else connecting the dots for them, where's the harm? I'm not talking about blatantly giving away the answers, but how much control should the cache hider have over the seeker's experience?

 

Should we be as critical of people who hike out to a cache but don't sufficiently enjoy the view?

[CoyoteRed]

...how much control should the cache hider have over the seeker's experience?

I think you can look at geocaching as a form of entertainment. Some hunts take you on long, physical trips to see breathtaking vistas. Some challenge your mind in the form of a puzzle and the hunt is the research and work involved solving it.

 

How much entertainment would there have been if someone told you the twist for the end of "Sixth Sense?"

 

Most of the puzzles I've come across asking for help isn't like asking "what's a five letter word meaning to hide supplies?" Many times it's one element that when revealed the rest of the clue unravels.

 

Back to your query. A cacher is pretty much responsible for your entertainment during the hunt for your cache. This can only really be front loaded and you're right, once it's out there the owner can only look over it. By taking the easy route you undermine and devalue his efforts.

[+El Diablo]

Isn't a cache kind of like a work of art?

 

Once you put it out there you have to let people approach it on their own terms. If that means they'll have more fun with someone else connecting the dots for them, where's the harm? I'm not talking about blatantly giving away the answers, but how much control should the cache hider have over the seeker's experience?

 

Should we be as critical of people who hike out to a cache but don't sufficiently enjoy the view?

Your point is well taken Doctor. However when I hide a puzzle cache I want people to feel like they have accomplished goal when they solve the puzzle. In a way I am controlling their experience.

 

If you had been given the answers to the finals in medical school, would you feel the same pride or sense of accomplishment that you do today?

 

El Diablo

[ju66l3r]

How much entertainment would there have been if someone told you the twist for the end of "Sixth Sense?"

 

Actually the movie is differently entertaining when approaching it with that apriori knowledge. The new kink is to see how the director deviously hid the possible spoilers for the twist and see how he put one over on you at every plot turn.

 

Knowing the final outcome let's you get into the director's head.

 

This is a good analogy.

[CoyoteRed]

How much entertainment would there have been if someone told you the twist for the end of "Sixth Sense?"

 

Actually the movie is differently entertaining when approaching it with that apriori knowledge. The new kink is to see how the director deviously hid the possible spoilers for the twist and see how he put one over on you at every plot turn.

 

Knowing the final outcome let's you get into the director's head.

 

This is a good analogy.

I'd agree when seeing it for the second time.

 

[The rest deleted lest I be accused of giving things away even though I think most people already know the twist.]

[+globalgirl]

...In a way I am controlling their experience.

Uh, there's that silly "control" word again. Sorry Diablo, but I agree with Puzzler. Surely the essence of geocaching is to have FUN - not to [try to] control how folks play the game (and lest we forget, it IS but a game, yes?)

[+Team Perks]

CR, I'll admit that I have never seen "Sixth Sense." (I know, I'm lame.) However, when I finally do, I don't want to go into it knowing how everything is going to turn out.

 

I don't have too many intensely difficult puzzle caches, but I like knowing that those people who did go after them got to enjoy the challenge. I'm happy giving out hints on my own caches if requested, but I would not want to take away the challenge intended by another cache hider in giving out answers to their puzzles.

[+The Puzzler]

. . . when I hide a puzzle cache I want people to feel like they have accomplished goal when they solve the puzzle.

I think all of us would agree with that statement. The ambiguity comes when the puzzle is no longer fun and the chance for at least some sense of accomplishment or possitive experience is lost because the puzzle is to hard for the solver to solve on their own. I know several people that lost interest in puzzles all together because they had a few bad experiences where they put tremendous effort into a puzzle with no sucess in the end.

 

In contrast, some of the greatest glee I have watched in people's expressions has been when they have solved very hard puzzles, but having struggled to the point of faileur, received some small clue that provided them with just enough of a nudge to think out of the box and then solve the rest of the puzzle on their own. They feel like they have pushed themselves to the limit, and with a little help, managed to acheive their goal.

 

I think the secret here is to give a thoughtful nudge, but not so much of a clue that the remaining solution is no longer an valued challenge. I also think it is too bad when someone gives away the answer to a puzzle freely (note, I do not include solutions with any of my puzzles, although I am glad to try and provide insightful clues - not spoilers - if asked via email).

 

I often make people mad for not giving enough away, but I will always give some when asked. People diserve to be given the benifit of the doubt when it comes to what is fun for them, not just what is fun for a sadistic puzzle nut like myself. Maybe I've learned this the hard way.

[+The Jester]

If you had been given the answers to the finals in medical school, would you feel the same pride or sense of accomplishment that you do today?

If I didn't have somebody to guide me toward the answers, I'd never get out of school. That's the role of teachers. If the finals all dealt with things not studied (i.e.. unknown), who'd ever graduate?

 

For the most part puzzles are fun. But if I don't have any background that gives me a start at it, I can't do anything but get frustrated - no fun. There have been a couple in my area that I couldn't even figure out what was the puzzle! I could design a puzzle based on my experience/knowledge as a magician that only a another magician with knowledge in a particular area would understand, a great 'puzzle' but who would enjoy it? So asking for some help - a nudge or hint, not the answer - is fine. And what difference does it make who you ask? A friend who's solved it is better than the hider who gives a hint that I still have no handle to understand.

[CoyoteRed]

I think The Puzzler's last post is just about dead on. The only thing that I would add is advise on not giving up too early.

 

We've been stumped on a puzzles only to gain insight at some later time. Several times we've had the meaning of clues come to us out of the blue while doing other things.

 

Patience is one of the virtues.

 

If we had given up too early and asked for help, even a nudge, we wouldn't have had that pleasure for ourselves.

[Mushtang]

It seems that most people in this thread are against giving out hints, and all are opposed to giving out the answers.

 

But how is this different from other forms of "cheating"? Whenever a thread comes up where someone complains about a cacher logging a find on his own cache, or people logging multiple finds in the same cache, most of the replies are "If that's how people want to cache, let them. It's not hurting anyone". Or, "I wouldn't do it that way, but if they want to then I don't care".

 

So if that's true, then how is it different for puzzles? If someone doesn't enjoy puzzles but still wants to find the cache, then what's wrong with giving him the answers, or at least a strong hint?

 

If he wants to "cheat" and get a smiley that others worked harder for, is that not the same as logging your own cache?

[+ShadowAce]

It seems that most people in this thread are against giving out hints, and all are opposed to giving out the answers.

 

But how is this different from other forms of "cheating"? Whenever a thread comes up where someone complains about a cacher logging a find on his own cache, or people logging multiple finds in the same cache, most of the replies are "If that's how people want to cache, let them. It's not hurting anyone". Or, "I wouldn't do it that way, but if they want to then I don't care".

 

So if that's true, then how is it different for puzzles? If someone doesn't enjoy puzzles but still wants to find the cache, then what's wrong with giving him the answers, or at least a strong hint?

 

If he wants to "cheat" and get a smiley that others worked harder for, is that not the same as logging your own cache?

IMHO a major difference is player one can go log his own caches and it affects nobody but them..

 

If player two or three give the answer to my puzzle to player one, then you now have three people involved in ruining what I put work into.. Some of these puzzles take weeks to months to create.

 

Now if player one was able to get the answer without working the puzzle, do you really think they wont tell others?

 

So player logs there own cache. Affects them only.. When they freely give out the answers to a puzzle it affects many many people...

[Mushtang]

If player two or three give the answer to my puzzle to player one, then you now have three people involved in ruining what I put work into..

How does that ruin the cache? It might remove the challenge of solving the puzzle for the person, or people, that asked for the answer, but the cache isn't ruined at all. It's still there and the next guy can solve the puzzle and have fun.

 

Nothing is ruined, and more people have fun caching.

[+Firehouse16]

Some people just don't like puzzles, they just want to find the cache. I'm in that category as are many other people I know. One time I decided to work on a puzzle, 3 days, countless hours, 8 visits to the site before I figured out where it was. Once I got there was it worth it? NO, freaking nano in a telephone pole with trash all over! Maybe that's not the norm, but it's not my thing. I don't have the patience for puzzles, having a short attention span doesn't help. Have I solved some, sure, did I enjoy them anymore than a regular cache, not really. It's just not my thing!

 

I believe it's to each their own. Some like it some don't. How someone get's to the final cache location is their business, if they just want the answer and to not solve it, well that's their choice, it's a free caching world! Should the cacher be disappointed? well that's up to the individual, what's the difference if someone tells someone else where a regular cache is before they get there, same difference. I think puzzlers get pissed because they spent this time trying to fool people or make them use their Brain to some higher degree, well that's great! But it's not what I got into geocaching for. It's about having fun and finding caches my way, not yours. For me it's about the fun of the game the way I chose to play it. So why do I even think about doing puzzles, because it's another number and I want it off my list!

 

This is why we have variety. Let the hider hide it their way, let the finder find it their way. Once you make the cache and release it it's out of your hands how people find it. Get off the control issue already.

[ju66l3r]

Now if player one was able to get the answer without working the puzzle, do you really think they wont tell others?

 

So player logs there own cache. Affects them only.. When they freely give out the answers to a puzzle it affects many many people...

Only if you let it affect you.

 

If I created a puzzle cache that was months in the making, I'd be happy every time someone took the time to do it the way I set it up. That doesn't require me to be sad or angry every time someone goes end-around. I don't see authors suing CliffsNotes because they gave away the ending. There are a billion gaming websites with the cookie-cutter procedures for finding all of the secret items in every game on every system...but I don't see Nintendo going berserk. Most of these companies and people see a greater audience.

 

Here, we see cheaters and shirkers! Burn them all!

 

...

 

It's time to recognize that your work of art is out there for the public to do with it what they will. Let it go, Van Gogh. There are still people who read a book even with CliffsNotes being in every book store and there are still people who explore a good adventure game because they like the challenge...revel in these people's delights and stop worrying about those who have chosen to full out cheat.

 

In the meantime, someone who may want to accomplish your puzzle may feel completely stuck and a small clue to help them back on track assures that they can feel good about accomplishing the remainder on their own. Looking back they may even take a greater appreciation for the work as a whole even though a small part gave them trouble.

 

Case in point, I tried a nearby multicache. It wasn't even a puzzle cache by any standard, but I got hung up on part #2. I decoded the hint and still couldn't figure it out even though I had checked exactly where it told me ("under a railing")...

 

I knew I was in the right spot, but couldn't find the coordinates. So, I brought a friend along the next time. In the process of searching, he discovered a completely different set of railing to check. Lo and behold it was there that we found the coordinates and moved on. Without aid on it (whether it came from a friend or a previous person to visit the cache is immaterial) I would have given up and had to continue to chalk it up to a loss. With aid, I was able to finally fully appreciate the cache (it's a very neat area...) and see what the clues meant and why he would bring me to the second spot (although where I thought it was was nice too).

 

I guess the question comes down to whether you see someone attempting your puzzle as a benefit or a challenger...an audience for your work or a potential adversary...a cheat and a thief or just another cacher (maybe the next one will appreciate it more fully).

[+The Puzzler]

This thread is really interesting for me because I sympathise strongly with both sides.

 

I am fundamentally an anarchist (Read most any of my posts previous to posts in this thread). But, I am also a puzzler who loves sharing the joy of puzzles with others.

 

It hurts me when someone I have shared a puzzle with doesn't have any desire or appreciation for the insights and joys that the puzzle gave me, especially if I made the puzzle. It is a slap in the face like sharing a heartfelt story or your love of a favorite book with someone and having them suggest that they couldn't have cared less about the book or story, found it boring, and don't have any interest in talking about it any more. BUT, with experience (or age), I have found that the other person's lack of interest is not directed at me, it is just their personal take on that story or puzzle.

 

I have learned that I can spark some peoples' interest in puzzles by teasing them with simple ones and/or giving clues to make some of the harder ones more fun for a person that otherwise would loose interest quickly.

 

In the end, as I stated previously in this thread, "People diserve to be given the benifit of the doubt when it comes to what is fun for them, not just what is fun for a sadistic puzzle nut like myself."

 

I have a number of puzzle caches in the planning process, and I will feel sad when someone logs one of them without putting any effort into the puzzle (i.e., getting the answer from someone else), but I will not delete their log nor condemn them just because they didn't appreciate my "artwork" in the way I originally intended.

[+Abby's Family]

OK.. I have a couple of cents here!

 

1) I actually have talked in email to the person who asked for some help.

2) The person has solved 3 of the 4 caches on their own (or with help from a family member with more math skills).

3) The person was asking for some help that I think may have been given without the 'slap on the wrist' that they got.

 

I'm torn by both sides too... I can understand the creator wanting people to have effort in solving the puzzle. However, meeting other cachers (even via email) is interesting and sharing hints or suggestions is ok.

 

Personally, in this case (the thread that got closed), what I got out of it was an appreciation for another cool set of puzzle caches in an area I doubt I'll ever see.

 

What I think is most important is to be respectful. Be respectful of peoples wishes as much as you can, but also be nice to people who may cross the line in your eyes as to what they request here too.

[+=BB=]

Why can't people seem to accept that different people will play the same game differently?

 

Why do all the bean-counters here seem to take offense to someone asking for the solution to a cache?

 

Are you afraid that these people will exceed your "amazing" 'find count' (consisting mostly of 1/1s I might add)?

 

This is an individual game where the only competition should be yourself. If you are unable to solve a puzzle and cache simply for the finds and not the trek then who cares!?

 

I personally cache for the challenge. If you look at my stats, I tend to tackle all of the most difficult caches by day and the rest by night (to artificially increase the difficulty).

 

We all play the game differently.

[+El Diablo]

Why do all the bean-counters here seem to take offense to someone asking for the solution to a cache?

 

Are you afraid that these people will exceed your "amazing" 'find count' (consisting mostly of 1/1s I might add)?

 

You can look at my stats and see I'm not a bean counter. However I still think it should be up to the cache owner to give out hints or clues.

 

El Diablo

[+=BB=]

That is fine. Re-read my last statement.

[+El Diablo]

That is fine. Re-read my last statement.

Ive read your entire statement. I don't like you calling good cachers "Bean counters" or belittling their finds by saying they are mainly 1/1s. For someone that has been in this sport for such a short time you are being awfully judgemental.

 

El Diablo

[+Doc-Dean]

Once again we are caught up on "How the game should be played"...

 

I am with the fun faction on this issue. Whichever method of solving a puzzle provides you with the maxium fun is correct and everyone else is wrong.

 

Now I am going to stick my fingers in my ears and not listen anymore.

 

Nyyaa, I'm not listening....

[+=BB=]

That is fine.  Re-read my last statement.

Ive read your entire statement. I don't like you calling good cachers "Bean counters" or belittling their finds by saying they are mainly 1/1s. For someone that has been in this sport for such a short time you are being awfully judgemental.

 

El Diablo

How myopic of you.

 

I can't help but feel you post to argue at this point and I will not play your game.

[CoyoteRed]

There are some pretty convincing arguments here.

 

But then I think, where do we draw the line? How about just posting the coords to the finals? Cliffnotes to each of the puzzles? Spoilers to each stage?

 

This is slippery slope down which we tread.

 

I'm all for help. A nudge here. A tickle there. Too much help though...

 

How far is too far?

[+Firehouse16]

You're not getting it CoyoteRed, no one said there was anything wrong with puzzles, but it's each finders choice about how they want to find it. I look at puzzles around here, the hard ones, and I look at who finds them, I bet out of 10 finds only 2-3 actually solved it. From there it's all downhill...........

[+Anonymous']

Asking for help solving puzzle caches is perfectly fine.

[+The Puzzler]

I'm all for help.  A nudge here.  A tickle there.  Too much help though...

 

How far is too far?

Here's my standard answer to this type of question:

 

After all is said and done, will you (or the person being helped) look back on the experience and wish that less was revealed (or more)?

 

I don't think there is a way to provide a hard or consistent answer on this matter. It will be different for each person, place, and time. We can only act carfully and compationately and hope that our best guess is still looked back on as a good decision after all is said and done.

 

Sometimes we'll provide inspiration. Sometimes we'll screw up. But, either way, in the end, it is just a game. And, we'll probably get lots more chances to get it right (or wrong) next time.

[+Wily Javelina]

You can look at my stats and see I'm not a bean counter. However I still think it should be up to the cache owner to give out hints or clues.

 

El Diablo

I think that it is perfectly acceptable for a person to ask for hints in solving a difficult cache. Though, I do not think that the owner of a cache should be required to give out hints. Personally, I gladly give out hints if I feel that the person is truly stuck and cannot move forward. But, the thing that bothers me the most is when I get harassed by cachers that are attempting to be the first to find the cache and will do anything to get it…these cachers are what I consider to be the "bean counters". The best part about hiding a puzzle cache is when you think that you'll stump "them all" and the next day someone has found it without even contacting you to verify the final coordinates…these cachers are what I consider to be the "purists".

[CoyoteRed]

Sometimes we'll provide inspiration.  Sometimes we'll screw up.  But, either way, in the end, it is just a game.  And, we'll probably get lots more chances to get it right (or wrong) next time.

And with this, it might be wise to advocate to always keep this in the forefront of our minds when asking for and giving help.

 

I'm sure there will always be folks who will gladly accept the coords to a final stage, those you can't do too much about. It's the freely giving away spoilers--and yes, the term fits--that we should be concerned about.

 

Lest I sound hypocritical, this argument is directed towards myself as much as anyone. I've helped on puzzles before. I probably gave away too much. One puzzle I remember was outside my area so I would probably never do it, so I gave nudge after nudge until it became pretty much giving it away.

 

What if I gave away a solution and this person was FTF while a person who solved it by himself got there later? That's not exactly fair. Could be the very reason I've got a problem with getting my mind around what's right.

 

So, here I firmly stand against giving away too much info on puzzles that are not my own. I don't know what "too much" is, but I'm firmly against it!

 

[+Byron & Anne]

Why is it necessary to keep getting caught up in "Shoulds" and "Oughts"?????

[+kevmikwa]

I wish I hadn't missed out on this convo. It would seem that the bulk of it occurred on Monday.

 

The thing I wanted to add was that the real thrill for most people who solve puzzle caches is that they see the challenge, evaluate it, tackle it and succeed.

 

Say person "A" solves a tough puzzle cache and person "B" then goes to "A" and says "tell me the coords, willya". What does person "B" get out of the deal? A cache find. A smiley face. Hopefully some knowledge of a nice park or something. How can the cache placer have any problem with this? They're missing out on some added enjoyment from the puzzle bit, but why should I (the cache placer) care about that?

 

ShadowAce said:

 

I take a certain pride in the fact that some [puzzle caches in Arizona] have very few finds and my name is one of them.. When I hear about another cacher helping people solve puzzles it takes alot of the pride away.

 

When I do a puzzle cache (and I have done one, I promise), I know how hard or easy it was. I can evaluate the lengths I had to go to solve it. I am aware that GC.com and the cachers who use it are largely unregulated and so I do not put much stock into the find listing. You may not like that people are cheating, but that should never detract from your enjoyment of the hunt. You know the work that you put into it - take pride in that.

 

[DISCLOSURE] As a geocache hunter, I am a beginner. As a geocache placer, I am an embryo.

 

[RELATED] I just had my second puzzle cache approved less than 24 hours ago. It's admittedly not very hard. Currently, I am not posting any hints for the puzzle part. My intent is that as soon as the first person finds the cache, I will post a "nudge" clue in the "Hints" section for those needing guidance. Someone has already emailed me with a guess. I politely told him my policy and wished him the best of luck. Once somebody finds the cache, I've promised the emailer that I will check back with him and see if he still wants the help (unless of course HE is the one that logs the FTF). In this practice, I am agreeing with CoyoteRed:

 

What if I gave away a solution and this person was FTF while a person who solved it by himself got there later? That's not exactly fair.

 

I want to give someone the chance to solve it top to bottom and grab FTF honors first.

[CoyoteRed]

They're missing out on some added enjoyment from the puzzle bit, but why should I (the cache placer) care about that?

It's hard for me to get my mind around exactly what is wrong with it. I know I want people to either have fun or go on an adventure. Hopefully, both. The caches we now place, it's not going to be a stroll in a park, it's going to be rough. We look at placing caches with a goal of showing folks something and giving one a sense of accomplishment--bragging rights.

 

Maybe that's what I'm trying to protect as a cache owner, "bragging rights."

 

Bragging rights belong to those who successfully complete a cache on their own, be it solo or as a team. A compromised challenge is just that compromised. It only has value to one's self if they do it without the available outside help, but outsiders looking in will wonder.

 

It's like the folks that completed "Blood and Guts." They have bragging rights. If a spoiler start making the rounds, the later hunters' bragging rights are diminished because anyone can now log the cache.

 

I'm not sure I'm articulating this well.

 

I understand a cacher can hunt caches in any manner he chooses and gets whatever out of it that appeals to him, but at what cost to the cache itself and to the owner? What of those that come after?

 

I think I just had a revelation...

 

Now this is really going to go off topic.

 

Some people hunt to up their find count. They attack cache dense areas finding the easiest caches that can be done in the shortest amount of time. That is their sense of accomplishment--watching that find count go up.

 

I think we fall into a different category that could be looked upon is a similar light. We collect "trophies." These are the more difficult caches, mostly more difficult hikes at the moment, but we also take pride in solving puzzles and being FTF on the more difficult ones in our area. (Doesn't always happen... )

 

It is bragging rights that we are after. We've done Brady's Bottom on Christmas Day. We've done Panther Tail Perch, Devil's Courthouse, Bad Creek Loop and gone to the bottom of Whitewater Falls for the hell of it. We've done Tube Torcher. We're getting 5/5 challenges emailed to us. Our vacations rotate around the most difficult caches in the area.

 

Does that sound a little like bragging? I suppose it does.

 

Maybe that's why I don't want the value of those caches to be compromised.

 

</ramble>

 

"Hi. My name is CR and I'm a trophy cacher."

[ju66l3r]

I still don't see where a cheater has any influence on your bragging rights. Did you do it "top to bottom" as it were? Then you can brag that you solved it all yourself.

 

The number of other finders doesn't influence that. What if it's a tremendously difficult 5/5 cache, but everyone else has done it too...does that mean it's not a 5/5? Or that you didn't do something special?

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're looking to brag that you're only one of a dozen people to solve a certain cache (and that's why you chase the 5/5s) then you're going to just have to stay one step ahead of the "pack". Eventually, the people who want to do 5/5s will catch up to you on the ones that you're "bragging" about now and you'll just be another number. If people are skipping the hard parts to log these caches now, then you need to stay ahead of them by finding the next 5/5 out there and beating that one. They can't skip the hard parts without someone else giving it away (and that means you have an opportunity to get in ahead of them while they get their answers from their sources). Either of these two groups (the pack of others doing the 5/5s slower or the "cheaters") are going to slowly dilute your bragging...if you base your bragging on being of an elite crew to do all the hardest puzzles. If you realize that the number of other people to complete hard puzzles doesn't lessen your number of hard puzzles completed, then brag on, brag on.

[+Team Perks]

"Hi. My name is CR and I'm a trophy cacher."

I collect trophy caches too. Check your email.

 

Despite my frequent disagreement with your opinions, I think you put in quite succinct terms how I feel about tackling challenging caches. Thank you for stating it far better than I ever could.

[+Sissy-n-CR]

(As I wipe the spewed coffee from my monitor!)

 

You got me! I had not been reading this thread and got the e-mail. I figured you must have meant to log another waypoint that was similar, but where is it freezing?

 

CR pointed me in the right direction.

 

Thanks for the laugh!

 

Edited because I just re-read the log. Here it is for others to enjoy!

 

" Wow, what a swim--and boy, was it cold at the coordinates! Found the

cache at the bottom of the frozen ocean floor. Couldn't sign the log as the

container had frozen shut and the ink in my pen had solidified anyway.

Thanks for the challenge!"

 

This was a log left on a cache page that CR used to test layouts. (Has been deleted by poster).

Edited October 14, 2004 by Sissy-n-CR