Newspaper Vending Machine Cache

3.9k · October 11, 2004

This is regarding my

Son of New York cache, which was found by a lot of you NYC area cachers already. Under the guidelines, this is considered a commercial cache. I'm wondering if the sprit of that guideline really refers to a paper that costs .25 cents. I know this is far from the first cache hidden in this manner and I'm sure it won't be the last. However, this cache has to be archived (or moved) because of this guideline. So what are your thoughts? Should exceptions be made for caches of this type?

This topic should not be in any way misconstrued as a flame against any admin or approver. My local approver, New York Admin, very respectfully emailed me and brought this to my attention. This is strictly to get opinions about this cache.

Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas may not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

Edited October 11, 2004 by JMBella

October 11, 2004

"Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda."

It's good that line applies to caches and not cachERs!!! :unsure:

Actually I think it's pretty lame to complain about spending a quarter. Most caches have cost me a whole lot more than that in the general scheme of things. i'm assuming that the cache doesn't promote a business (yours or otherwise). There are a bunch of Pennsylvania Turnpike caches that require you to pay a toll to find them, so what's the difference? I've also paid entrance fees to get into parks to find caches. I don't see a difference there either.

October 11, 2004

I dont know what particular paper it is that we're talking about, but if I had to buy a copy of... I dunno... "Republican Weekly" to claim a find it might annoy me. Then again its a freaking quarter, so....

the problem is, that despite being *only a quarter* you then start down that slope of "how much is too much", and its bad to go there. neat idea. shame someone had to complain and force an admins hand, but speaking from a purely technical aspect, its a commercial cache.

I'm looking at that last line very closely... "Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site." Unfortuantely it wasn't asked in advance, and I guess someone complained. Glad I wasnt the admin who had to rule on this one.

If a lot of people have found it, personally I'd archive it on move on, and not worry about where/how to place it for future finders. it lived a good life. remember that.

3.9k · October 11, 2004

"Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda."

That's a great point.

Just to be devils advocate regarding paying tolls and paying a fee to get into a park... those aren't considered "for-profit". Presumably, the newspaper is a for-profit company. That being said, IT'S ONLY TWENTY-FIVE CENTS!!!!

38.2k · October 11, 2004

"Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda."

That's a great point.

Just to be devils advocate regarding paying tolls and paying a fee to get into a park... those aren't considered "for-profit". Presumably, the newspaper is a for-profit company. That being said, IT'S ONLY TWENTY-FIVE CENTS!!!!

Why don't you look for one of the free newspaper machines.

3.9k · October 11, 2004

GWho,

Regarding not asking permission. It didn't occur to me that this would fall under a commercial cache. When I think of a commercial cache, I think of one where you have to pay admission to get into some place like Disney or Six Flags. But I see your point.

There are some other potential spots in the area so I might try and move it. Sure a lot of people have found it but for NYC that's not all that many.

I'd love to know who complained and what they had to gain from complaining about it.

October 11, 2004

Regarding not asking permission. It didn't occur to me that this would fall under a commercial cache.

don't worry, I'm not blaming you. I agree, when i think of commercial caches I think of something quite different. What makes me chuckle with an uplifted eyebrow is that there are plenty of other caches that are much more obviously commercial. One example is one where you have to enter a particular bar and ask for "insert drink of your choice" in a special geocacher mug, and on the bottom is a code. email the code to claim the find. (note: its possible I read about this as a concept in the forums, but I am fairly sure its a real cache).

anyway, this is about as low on the list of commercial caches as you can get. but from a technical standpoint...

October 11, 2004

Why don't you look for one of the free newspaper machines.

not only is that a good solution, but it solves what I would expect to be a problem. You put in your quarter, grab a paper, grab the cache. Now unless you can open the cache container, retrieve the slip of paper and sign it with one hand, how will you hold open the door to the machine? Oh sure you could step your foot up on it, or you could pay another quarter to put it back. but neither of those are practical, or very free from raising the notice of the muggles. a free vending machines mean you can walk away and then come back and its still free both trips.

October 11, 2004

I call it the 'Sissification of Geocaching'.

What we need are more rules. This way only lame pointless caches can be placed.

3.9k · October 11, 2004

Regarding not asking permission. It didn't occur to me that this would fall under a commercial cache.

don't worry, I'm not blaming you. I agree, when i think of commercial caches I think of something quite different. What makes me chuckle with an uplifted eyebrow is that there are plenty of other caches that are much more obviously commercial. One example is one where you have to enter a particular bar and ask for "insert drink of your choice" in a special geocacher mug, and on the bottom is a code. email the code to claim the find. (note: its possible I read about this as a concept in the forums, but I am fairly sure its a real cache).

anyway, this is about as low on the list of commercial caches as you can get. but from a technical standpoint...

I'm fairly certain this is an actual cache as well. I think it was in place prior to the guideline.

Brian, I actually did try and find one of those, in fact, I think there's one right next to this one. The problem is, all the ones that I found were plastic so it didn't work for me at the time. I think what I'll do is use Velcro and put it in the free one. Not too sure about how the Velcro will hold up though. Maybe I can screw it in. That might look a little suspicious. I'll think of something.

8.1k · October 11, 2004

If this cache is a commercial cache then so is any cache that has a 911 or memorial theme to it. I have visited several of those, but people don't seem to mind them?

Should the rule be applied by the approver as being 'overtly' commercial like the TONY cache (Time Out New York)...

I am looking at this from a philosophical pov, not flaming any of the above examples. Also, caches that fall under a 'grandfather' rule? What is that?

Mind you , it took me more than a quarter to bag the Son of New York cache!!!

:unsure:

October 11, 2004

I found this one in Chicago a couple of summers ago In the Mag Mile News. It was in a free paper box and was pretty cool to attempt. I wouldn't be adverse to paying a quarter to buy a paper... even a "Republican Weekly" to get the cache. (If I had to suscribe, that would be something different.) Why not place it in one of the bazillion free "City Paper" boxes (or similar -- I haven't been to NYC in a few years) around the city? The one listed above was hosted by a newspaper reporter, but I'm sure one could be hidden carefully and last at least as long (from 6/16/02- 10/19/02) in such a high traffic urban setting. This one was in the HEART of the busiest section of Chicago's downtown shopping section. I had to do it at 6 am to avoid the throngs of muggles...

24.7k · October 11, 2004

If you had to pay a quarter to gain entrance to an area controlled by a for profit business cool though it may be it would be commercial. You would need special permission to place such a cache.

Case in point SCUBA parks. The idea isn't the amount of the fee, but the intent behind it.

Is a newspaper vending machine commerial? Yes in that the money goes to a for profit business even if you don't have to take the paper and that hits the rule dead center as it's come to be applied.

I've seen caches denied that were deemed as commercial even without the fee.

In the end I think it falls under the case of special permission is needed. The SCUBA cache was ultimatly allowed when that owner worked it out with GC.com.

The angle with this cache is that it's a clever hide and not under the nearest light pole base. That seems to be the intent to begin with. That's the angle to sell to get it accepted as non commercial.

Edit: Looked at the cache page and tweaked my comment.

Edited October 11, 2004 by Renegade Knight

October 11, 2004

Case in point SCUBA parks. The idea isn't the amount of the fee, but the intent behind it.

scuba cache?

btw you are absolutely correct in your assessment. wonder how such caches get approved though. theres been an apparent crackdown on cache approvals for... I dunno at least 6-12 months. virtuals are scrutinized heavily, LC aren't even alllowed that I know of, multis must provide the coordinates for all legs, etc. this would seem to raise some flags from the start, shouldn't it?

October 11, 2004

Well I myself have found 2 caches of this type, and didn't have a problem shelling out the 25 cents to be able to find the cache.

As for the commercial aspect, yeah they are making a profit, but it's 25 cents... it's not like you had to go in to some local store and buy something to be able to get the cache.

As for caches in more commercial locations like Disney or Six Flags, when I was down at Disney, I did find all the caches that were there at the time. For me, it added to my trip. Would I have planned my vacation around just hunting the caches in that location? No, I planned the vacation THEN looked to see what was around. Since I was already going to be in the Parks, then I could find the caches. But I wasn't going to go out of my way to find them if I wasn't already there.

But the way I see it, is with Geocaching we all have a choice... we can choose to find a cache, or just pass it by and go on to something else.

24.7k · October 11, 2004

...As for caches in more commercial locations like Disney or Six Flags, when I was down at Disney, I did find all the caches that were there at the time. For me, it added to my trip. ...

I agree with you on this. When I was at disney I wish I would of remembered to look up the caches there before I left. As it was it was a full day of go, go, go, so I may of just had the list and had to pas them bye anyway.

My post abovie is my opinion on intrepeting the current rules of this site. My personal opinion on commercial caches is the intent behind them is what makes them commercial or not. A cache in Disney placed by a cacher isn't alwasy commercial. It just happens to give dad something to do while waiting for his kids to return from the 2 hour Whirling Teacups fest.

What the problem is though, is that when you go to define a rule and move it from intent to something that can be applied as fairly and consistantly as possible, the rule shifts to something easier to work with. It's one thing for me to say "I know commercial when I see it" to putting it in writing so 50 approvers all know what exactly that is.

2.4k · October 11, 2004

OK, technically it's commercial and a NEW cache like it shouldn't be approved, but if we're talking about an EXISTING cache, shouldn't it be grandfathered? After all, locationless caches and moving caches won't be approved anymore, but the existing ones don't have to be archived.......shouldn't this be the same?

2.8k · October 11, 2004

I don't have a problem with this cache. I don't think I'd have a problem with commercial caches either... I just wouldn't do them if I was interested. It's like banning caches that need a boat because some folks don't have a boat.

Edited October 11, 2004 by Team DEMP

October 12, 2004

If you really want to have fun debating commercial caches, try this example.

I had a posted a submission for a cache which would have been located at Kroghs Brewpub, a building on the National Historic Register where the owners had agreed to participate in the fun. The cache was hidden inside the restaurant and required some creative interaction with the staff. The reward was that finders would have been offered a free beer (or non-alcoholic option) - NO PURCHASE NECESSARY. I had pre-paid 20 beers. Since it was in the restaurant, it was deemed commercial and not approved.

I quickly rolled this over into the TRL Beer and Munchies event that many of you attended but I thought the first idea was in line with the fun and spirit of geocaching.

October 12, 2004

I have an idea. Lets buy a couple of old METAL newspaper boxes , convert them to free and repaint them. WE could locate them on the streets anywhere we wanted just to hide a cache in them. Now that would be unique.

I'm off to EBAY...

October 12, 2004

I like the cache location, just quirky enough to inflict a head scratch.

Is it possible to put a few quarters inside so that you can reimburse those cachers that feel they need to be?

3.9k · October 12, 2004

I have an idea. Lets buy a couple of old METAL newspaper boxes , convert them to free and repaint them. WE could locate them on the streets anywhere we wanted just to hide a cache in them. Now that would be unique.

I'm off to EBAY...

That's kind of like opening a walnut with a sledgehammer. I like it!!

TRL, That's a great cache idea!!! With "no purchase necessary" that's a really gray area I think. I guess there's potential to make a purchase? :unsure:

Is it possible to put a few quarters inside so that you can reimburse those cachers that feel they need to be?

Not a bad idea but I guess it's along the same lines as TRL's idea. No purchase necessary, but... it's still "in" a commercial entity. I don't, it does seem a little silly but that's why I'm not an approver. Who the heck know what would get through if I was. I can tell you for certain that TRL cache would be the first thing I'd approve. I might even make it mandatory to have a beer to claim the find.

OK, technically it's commercial and a NEW cache like it shouldn't be approved, but if we're talking about an EXISTING cache, shouldn't it be grandfathered? After all, locationless caches and moving caches won't be approved anymore, but the existing ones don't have to be archived.......shouldn't this be the same?

Good point but unfortunately my cache isn't all that old.

Thanks for all the great responses and for keeping this thread flame free.

6.4k · October 12, 2004

Perhaps the reviewer here is just going on what Jeremy said here a few days ago?

Personally, I'm with RK on this one. Some of my favorite cache finds now fall under the general "commercial cache" guidelines. I see a huge difference in possible commercial intent of a log only micro in EPCOT, a cache in front of a restaurant full of 20% off coupons, and a micro in a newspaper box.

The problem is, how do you translate "intent" into a guideline? How does the site know a person's intent? Did Jmbella intend to help the newspaper make 25 cents (buck or more on Sunday, though!) off geocaching? Probably not. What if he put the cache in a free newspaper-style box that distributed his real estate listings? No fee, but now maybe his intent is to try and use the cache to promote his business. Even with no fee involved, there would be commercial intent.

What about a cache full of $5 off coupons for a restaurant? If it's placed by a cacher who just intended to give people a little gift and show them a place he enjoys eating at, it sounds OK to me. If that same cache was placed by the owner's brother, in hopes to drum up customers, that's commercial intent. But how do the reviewers know? How do you define it in writing? This is someone's website we're using here, and that someone (Jeremy) should have the right to decide who tries to use his website for free advertising. The simplest way to do that on a world-wide scale is just ban it in all forms. By leaving the door open for permission (like with the SCUBA cache RK mentions), Jeremy gets to evaluate the intent and approve or reject an idea based on his personal feelings.

Specifically getting to the cache-style in question. The first cache I ever saw like that was fun. I enjoyed the stealth involved with logging the cache. The second was annoying, in that it always seems to be Sunday when I'm there ($1.50 for the Sunday paper), and most of the hider's other caches I've found have been lame (by my personal standards) and poorly maintained. I just have no desire to spend $1.50 to initial a scrap of paper. As far as I'm concerned, I've found it, even if I won't take a smiley since I didn't sign it. Any after that so far have just been ignored. No offense to Joe or any other person who has hid one, but all the ones I've seen so far seem like they are hidden just for the sake of hiding a cache. If it was in front of a historic building, a piece of artwork, or at a scenic overlook, that would be one thing, but a box on a typical city street corner? What's the point of bringing me here? Just to add another smiley?

October 12, 2004

Personally, I'm with RK on this one.

And we now know that Hell has frozen over. :blink:

October 12, 2004

I call it the 'Sissification of Geocaching'.

What we need are more rules. This way only lame pointless caches can be placed.

I don't mind the newspaper commercialism rule, but the "no caches can be placed within a birch tree" rule is a bit over the top.

j/k

Sheesh - if it's disallowed, just list it elsewhere or argue with the approver directly. Doesn't matter a hill of beans what the popular opinion is - it's really up to one person for their interpretation.

October 12, 2004

What's the point of bringing me here? Just to add another smiley?

yes!

as for everything else you, said I also agree. But I still feel like a bit of rules lawyer in doing so. Keeping a hard fast line *is* the best policy as you dont let yourself be subjective and personal, but still. it's a quarter.

>hhmfpphh<

Edited October 12, 2004 by Gwho

3.9k · October 12, 2004

Sheesh - if it's disallowed, just list it elsewhere or argue with the approver directly. Doesn't matter a hill of beans what the popular opinion is - it's really up to one person for their interpretation.

Well, I wasn't looking to argue with anyone and I'm not in love with the cache so I'll either move it or archive it. Just thought it was worthy of a page of dialog. And by the looks of it, so did everyone else here.

I wasn't trying to get the admin to change his ruling. I was only wondering if others shared the same opinion.

What if he put the cache in a free newspaper-style box that distributed his real estate listings? No fee, but now maybe his intent is to try and use the cache to promote his business. Even with no fee involved, there would be commercial intent.

dadgum, now that's a good idea. :lol:

And for the records, I wasn't trying to get everyone to buy The New York Sun. I don't even think I grabbed one when I hid it.

October 13, 2004

Humm, i thought about doing something like this myself. Oh well... I'm just hoping my Haunted Depot cache gets approved.

1.3k · October 14, 2004

Sometimes these newspaper box caches are funny. For instance, there was the one that was placed for an event cache. The person restocking the newspapers the next day probably wondered why there was so much more money in there than papers sold.

October 18, 2004

Sheesh - if it's disallowed, just list it elsewhere or argue with the approver directly. Doesn't matter a hill of beans what the popular opinion is - it's really up to one person for their interpretation.

It has been my experience that, despite the reccomended procedures, neither popular opinion nor common sense has the ability to reverse a denial.

October 18, 2004

but all the ones I've seen so far seem like they are hidden just for the sake of hiding a cache. If it was in front of a historic building, a piece of artwork, or at a scenic overlook, that would be one thing, but a box on a typical city street corner? What's the point of bringing me here?

That was the beauty of the one in Chicago "In the Miracle Mile" I referenced in my previous post.

#1, it was in a free paper box; #2, it required immense planning and stealth; and #3, it was very near the Chicago Tribune building, which has embedded in its walls a large number of historical artifacts. Not only did I get the cache, but I was able to see (and touch) part of the Great Wall of China, the Pyramids, Macchu Piccu ( I thinks...) and a gazillion other pieces of stone from human history. Very cool, indeed. If it was a generic streetcorner box-- ho hum.

If you're going to do one, make sure it has what Mopar said... something of interest beside another smiley.

October 19, 2004

I'm not sure if this is a commercial cache (unless it was placed by a newspaper employee) but newspaper vending machines are private property, even if they are placed on public streets.

So the private property rule would seem to apply.

10.1k · November 11, 2004

JMBella, we loved the cache!!! I thought it was great! I had no compunctions about putting a quarter in. And No, I did not take a copy of the Son. You warned beforehand that it would cost a quarter. If someone doesn't want to spend a quarter, they've been forewarned. I do not see how commercialism entered into the mix. I have more qualms about Spooky Island, where I'd have to buy a kayak to log the cache. That's one cache I'll never visit.

November 11, 2004

In Maryland, there is a similar cache called Quarterback, planted by Phideo.

After you pay to get to the cache, when you open the container, Phideo leaves quarters behind, so if you didn't really want to pay, you can get your quarter back.

This generosity caught on, and some cachers don't take their quarter back, and actually leave another one behind too.

November 23, 2004

"The problem is, all the ones that I found were plastic so it didn't work for me at the time. I think what I'll do is use Velcro and put it in the free one. Not too sure about how the Velcro will hold up though. Maybe I can screw it in. That might look a little suspicious. I'll think of something. "

My $0.02:

Instead of screwing it in and potetionally damaging the vending machine,

How about Crazy Glue a small piece of metal to the plastic and use a magnetic container?

Just a thought.

ChrisMek

3.9k · November 23, 2004

"The problem is, all the ones that I found were plastic so it didn't work for me at the time. I think what I'll do is use Velcro and put it in the free one. Not too sure about how the Velcro will hold up though. Maybe I can screw it in. That might look a little suspicious. I'll think of something. "

My $0.02:

Instead of screwing it in and potetionally damaging the vending machine,

How about Crazy Glue a small piece of metal to the plastic and use a magnetic container?

Just a thought.

ChrisMek

Use a 2 part epoxy. That should do he trick.

BTW, my cache is gone now anyway. Go figure.

Newspaper Vending Machine Cache

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