About Dogs

[teamh3]

On my last trip ot to try (and fail) to find some caches in a local park I was walking down a trail when I came upon a man walking his dog. the dog wasnt on a leash (i dont knwo what the rules in this park were) but when the dog saw me he sort of ambled over to me and just stood in front of me. Turns out this dog was just looking for a new friend to pet him (of which i was more than happy to do) but it got me thinking that what if this dog was les than friendly.

 

So the question is how do you discourage a dog from trying to use you as a chew toy.

 

First off I have no wish to hurt any animal as i am of a good enough size to do so. I love animals, Dogs most of all. Until I moved to a apartment i almost always had at least one dog. Usually kept on a leash.

 

Please dont allow this thread to get nasty as I realize that it has the potential. I also feel it has the potential to lead to good conversation and a good exchange of information.

[+LthrWrk]

Ya never know if that wagging tail is .. great.. a new item on the lunch menu or please pet me.

 

I have Lucy (a Brittany Spaniel/Queensland Heeler mix) with me nearly all the time. She is well trained.. whenever I see someone approaching I call her to heel.. place her on a leash.. We stand steady. If the 'stranger' approaches I make it a purpose to show that Lucy is a friendly sort. But.. she is in my control. It is very rare indeed that she is so far away from me she does not quickly heel. I usually then will put her on a lead, until they either pass or I am assured that the dog and the owner are friendly.

 

If another person has their dog.. and allows it to approach without his control. I shoe that dog off. Usually by word, you be surprised sometimes.. simply commanding SIT or STAY in a very authoritative voice. and ya find out if it has been trained. The owner gets the message pretty quick. I wont let an uncontrolled dog approach myself nor Lucy.

 

Look for the signs.. ears, beginning to lay back.. shoulders, hair starting to raise up.. if you see those they are generally warning signs.

 

Most Parks require pets to be leashed unless specifically designated leash free zones. Some Washington State park trails do not allow pets at all as well as some Washington State Park Education Learning Center (ELC's) wont allow pets at anytime. I have arrived at places for events to only learn Lucy was not permitted... usually a friendly chat with Ranger or staff.. that she would be on lead 100 per cent of the time I get an OK. On several occassions I had to choose to leave.

 

Charles

Mt Vernon, WA

[+Stunod]

You need to be able to read the dog's emotion and intentions.

The ASPCA publishes a poster (you can view it HERE as a pdf) that helps you interpret the body language that dogs use.

 

If a dog is showing aggression, do not stare the dog in the eyes.

Turn sideways and slowly withdraw. Do not run...you cannot outrun a dog and this will only excite the dog more.

Put an object such as a tree, post, or bench between you and the dog.

Speak softly and gently to calm the dog, "Good dog, it's OK, go home."

Stand still or maintain a constant slow pace out of the dog's territory.

If local law allows, use pepper spray when charged by the dog.

If charged, get something between you and the dog's mouth - umbrella, pack, jacket, stick

If attacked, curl up in a ball and protect your face, neck, and head.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Stunod

[Ferreter5]

Like LthrWrk posted, I also have my dog with me most of the time when I'm out caching, trail walking, or hiking. She's also well behaved and I rarely have to call her back to me when she's off-leash because she's good at staying within a certain distance of me.

 

However, I do call her back when we meet other people or animals along the trail. I also never walk her off-leash in areas where there are numerous people, only in places where I know we'll only maybe meet someone occasionally.

 

I've run off several pushy dogs from our property just by acting like an alpha-dog -- no, not getting down on all fours, you know what I mean. It's a lot of body language and bluffing. While this isn't the first approach I usually take with a strange dog, it has come in handy at times. You don't necessarily have to be aggressive with strange dogs -- getting away unharmed from one that's acting aggressively is always the goal -- but definitely don't act like prey!

 

[Edit for spelling fix.]

Edited September 29, 2004 by Ferreter5

[+TotemLake]

I have my dog's leash on hand at all times, but he's well enough trained to come back on call to varying degrees depending on the command.

 

Always feel free to yell out to the owner and ask if he's friendly or not. Put it back on the owner to take control of the animal. Failing that or upon the absence of the owner, do what has to be done to protect yourself, your loved ones, and your own pets. The above suggestions are great and even though it isn't recommended to become agressive, sometimes that is the correct approach. Dogs have a distinct instinct to understand the pecking order rather quickly but there can be no doubt in your action once you take this direction as you may have to back up your bluff.

[+Torry]

I am a big fan of pets but no fan of those who feel THEIR animals deserve to run around unsupervised, especially in public parks.

 

I try to keep strays and new dogs in sight and let them know I'm watching them. If they seem aggressive I'll stop and watch them directly. If they get TOO aggressive I've found a sharp, authoritative "NO" is often sufficient to make them back off.

[Warbones]

This is good advice. I never know what to do myself.

[+D & K]

I was once attacked by a medium sized mutt, and let me tell you I don't care how big you are, a biting dog is very hard to defend yourself from, luckily for me the owner was very near by. I don't hold a grudge against the dog or its owner, it just happens sometimes. I keep my dog on a leash but I am always on the look out for dogs that are running free.

 

We have a lot of coyotes in my neighborhood and they can become very agressive also. We keep our eyes peeled for them when we walk our dog (pug). They love to eat small animals and when my pug in on the end of the leash I think of it as a lure on the end of a finshing poll. LOL

 

Just don't kid yourself that you can defend against an attacking dog. Be aware when you see a dog running off leash.

[+Renegade Knight]

...If a dog is showing aggression, do not stare the dog in the eyes. ...

I didn't know that one. When faced with a seemingly agressive dog I have always stared right at them like I own them the way a lawnmower owns the grass.

 

However everything else on that list I've always done without thinking about it.

[+Torry]

...If a dog is showing aggression, do not stare the dog in the eyes. ...

I didn't know that one. When faced with a seemingly agressive dog I have always stared right at them like I own them the way a lawnmower owns the grass.

 

However everything else on that list I've always done without thinking about it.

Gotta agree. I've found that a big human is a dangerous target to any single dog. If you act submissive or like prey the animal may think like a hunter. I don't need the dog assuming I am afraid of it. This goes for ankle biters and big mutts equally.

[+Stunod]

...If a dog is showing aggression, do not stare the dog in the eyes. ...

I didn't know that one. When faced with a seemingly agressive dog I have always stared right at them like I own them the way a lawnmower owns the grass.

 

However everything else on that list I've always done without thinking about it.

A submissive dog will succumb to a stare. A dog who takes it as a challange to it's dominance may become more aggressive. I would guess that a submissive dog would never have attacked you anyway.

[+SixDogTeam]

I almost always cache with one of my dogs, but keep them on leash at all times on the trails, and only off leash when negotiating difficult terrain, like climbing up or down on all fours (me). Also, a wagging tail is not always a sign of friendliness in a canine...

[+SixDogTeam]

A submissive dog will succumb to a stare. A dog who takes it as a challange to it's dominance may become more aggressive.

STUNOD has this right. There are exceptions to most of these rules, also. I had a wolf hybrid bitch for two weeks for a breeding with one of mine (who act like pet dogs), and she was very timid, and wary as most higher percentages are, and she would not let me approach her, even tho I was her primary care giver and feeder for two weeks. She loathed eye contact and retreated at every chance. However, if I averted my eyes and turned my back on her, she sould sneak up behind me to sniff me out and touch me with her nose every time...

[teamh3]

Just don't kid yourself that you can defend against an attacking dog. Be aware when you see a dog running off leash.

if need be and I felt threatened enough I would have no problem putting the dog down in a permanent way (I am have a carry permit) but I just know that there must be much better ways of dealing witht he situation. I have gotten alot of good advice.

 

I have no wish to permantly injure a DOg or God forbid, have to kill one. That really goes against everything i have in me.

[+TotemLake]

Just don't kid yourself that you can defend against an attacking dog. Be aware when you see a dog running off leash.

Actually, you have to know how a dog attacks in order to properly defend yourself. Putting your arm in the way is no defense. Smaller dogs are worse than bigger dogs. They already have the little big man syndrome built in. And a pack of dogs is an entirely different situation.

 

We owned a retired police dog prior to and while my Dad was overseas doing sea duty off of Vietnam back in the late 60's. When Dad walked in unannounced, I watched Smokey leap for Dad's throat in what looked like a single bound. Dad cocked back and punched him straight in the nose and spun him around.

 

A month home and three months later, Dad was back from another overseas tour of duty. The dog repeated the same fateful attack, only this time in mid-air, he recognized Dad just a little too late and tried to stop in mid-air and got whalloped again. That dog never went after Dad ever again.

 

Since then, I have been chased by very aggressive dogs. Some I managed to get on the other side of a fence quick enough, and with the others, the only thing that stopped them was to turn on them and take ownership of the situation. Loud and angry noises with aggressive motions back at them caused them to back off. I've learned if you have to defend yourself from an aggressive dog, you have to take immediate steps and overwhelm the animal against its own abilities. Chances are you'll have it backing off to figure if its worth messing with you or not. Yah, you will get bit and scratched. This is an action you have to decide to take in a split second or two. If you can get something between you and the animal, so much the better... but if you can't... curling up doesn't stop a dog attack.

 

==edited for clarity==

Edited September 29, 2004 by TotemLake

[+Robespierre]

Last Saturday I was just starting a cache. A young family was letting their toddler "walk-the-stroller", so she said "doggie," and headed right our way. Now, my dog is scarey to a lot of people. Really black dogs tend that way. I spoke to the panicky father and told him that the dog was safe. I take him to church on Wednesdays sometimes and let him play with the kids in the front yard. But Dad was not about to take my word for it. The black dog stood at the end of his leash, and Dad scooped her up just at the last - well, he could have had an arm if he wanted. I think Mom is still laying there. She did get to pet the doggie after that. Parents NEED to be careful, but we also can teach out children bad habits - like those people who lose all control of their senses when there's a bee in the car - foolishness. Don't let your kids see you do that.

Then there's Kearsten, who plays nervously with the black dog, because she once put her hand inside a fence and had it badly torn, and her arm broken. That dog was destroyed.

There's no perfect answer. Learn by exposure, read the guidelines. I once turned around just in time to see a Great Dane jumping on me, with blood dripping from his jowls. He turned out to be a nuisance all day while I was working because he was so friendly and needed so much attention. The blood was from a muskrat. It ruined the shirt.

I have had to work days on farms when the dog was not at all friendly. If you just carry something with you everywhere you go, like a rolled-up extension cord, you can keep it between you and the dog. It's a pain, but it saves pain.

Edited September 29, 2004 by Robespierre

[+Moore9KSUcats]

We were hiking this last Saturday, in the nearby Corps of Engineers park and had our dog, Honey. She is a cocker mix (maybe the other half is white lab?), and weighs less than 40 lbs. As we walked back to the car, she was on the leash, when another visitor came down the path with three big dogs (2 purebred labs and a mix), none of them on leash. The dogs surrounded Honey, but fortunately, they were just doing the typical "meet and greet" smelling. Honey knew she was outmatched, and basically stood there. Even so, it was irritating that it could have been a worse situation. I didn't even see that the walker had three leashes that she could have controlled the dogs with. I don't know what the official leash rules are there, but in another park, dogs must be on leash.

[+Kai Team]

We usually have Kai (at 80 pounds a good sized dog) with us and off leash where permitted, but he is well trained (AKC "Canine Good Citizen" certificate) and under voice control. Dogs that are not reliably under their owner's voice control should not be off leash.

 

That said, I've found that the best way not to antagonize a strange dog is to avoid taking either too submissive or too aggressive a stance. The former can invoke a prey response, and the latter can invoke a dominance response. So...

 

I always carry a walking stick, and when confronted with a strange dog I stand my ground, with the stick between the strange dog and me and Kai (at heel). If the owner is present, I will ask the owner if the dog is friendly (if it appears to be) or tell the owner to control his dog if it is acting aggressively (I rely on the dog's behavior more than what the owner says, because I've been in situations where the owner says, "Don't worry, he's friendly" just before their dog tries to attack me or my dog).

 

If the owner is not present, or does not control an aggressive acting dog, I'll attempt to back slowly away. If the dog attempts to come after me (or Kai), I'll take an aggressive stance and assert dominance with voice commands (e.g. sit, stay, etc). That works in most cases where backing off doesn't.

 

However, if a dog attacks, I'll use my walking stick or whatever else I have to defend myself, my companions or my dog, up to and including deadly force. Although I have no desire to injure or kill an animal because it's owner is irresponsible, I also even less desire to suffer a bad dog bite, have my dog maimed or killed, or find out the hard way that the "friendly" dog was exposed to a wild animal yesterday and has been acting strangely ever since (think rabies)!

[maddog1404]

There is a spray you can buy that will make a dog (or any animal) rethink their choices. The mailmen carry this and it does not harm the animal, Just makes them think about things for a while... Please don't flame me

[The McToy Bandit]

Seems like the most common geocaching solution to a perceived danger on the trail is to shoot the dangerous creature with a handgun carried legally with a permit.

 

Rattlesnake: Don't think, dont' step away from danger, don't use your brain, just shoot it!

 

Dog: treat like rattlesnake

 

I'd like to think that those that choose to carry a lethal weapon also carry a non-lethal solution like Halt (pepper spray for animals), a stick, or at least a little common sense. . .

Edited September 30, 2004 by The McToy Bandit

[teamh3]

Bandit - Not all of us who carry guns wish to use them or think they should be used in any situation. The reason why I STARTED THIS THREAD in the first place was open up a forum on disscussion pertaining to other (non-lethal) methods. I am new to caching and actually pretty new to spending time in the woods, I am a born and raised city boy who carries because i work nights in a bad part of town. Even then i find that being alert and aware of my surroundings has kept me out of many many many more situations than my handgun has gotten me out of. But on the streets I am aware, I know the streets I know the body language of those around me, I know what is around the next corner, and where the blind spots are. In the woods I am new when it comes to Dogs I dont know the body language (unless you count the jumping and biting at my various appendages, that I understand)

 

having been bitten while I was younger, I have no wish to endure that a second time. I am looking for either non lethal or non violent ways of keeping that from happening again.

 

from my previous reply

I have no wish to permantly injure a DOg or God forbid, have to kill one. That really goes against everything i have in me.

[+Sputnik 57]

I haven't been caching that long, so most of my strange dog experience comes from my jogging through unfamiliar neighborhoods. I had one encounter where I simply didn't see the dog until the very last second. It ran up behind me, jumped up and knocked me down. I hit the ground and rolled, fully expecting to find the dog at my throat as I can up, but it had apparently had its fun, and was trotting back to its lair, probably to wait for another passer by.

 

On several occasions, I have turned on aggressive dogs, yelling like a mad man, barking, screaming, and moving toward the dog. They have always backed down, but maybe I've just been lucky. I don't think that I would try this if faced with several aggressive dogs at once.

[+Kai Team]

Seems like the most common geocaching solution to a perceived danger on the trail is to shoot the dangerous creature with a handgun carried legally with a permit.

 

Rattlesnake: Don't think, dont' step away from danger, don't use your brain, just shoot it!

 

Dog: treat like rattlesnake

 

I'd like to think that those that choose to carry a lethal weapon also carry a non-lethal solution like Halt (pepper spray for animals), a stick, or at least a little common sense. . .

teamh3

I have no wish to permantly injure a DOg or God forbid, have to kill one. That really goes against everything i have in me.

Kai Team

However, if a dog attacks, I'll use my walking stick or whatever else I have to defend myself, my companions or my dog, up to and including deadly force. Although I have no desire to injure or kill an animal because it's owner is irresponsible

In this thread and the rattlesnake thread, the relatively few people who acknowledged carrying a lethal weapon all stated a preference for non-lethal solutions and showed a lot of common sense by discussing, at length, alternatives and steps that would precede using a lethal weapon as a last resort.

 

I'd like to think McToy Bandit could recognize non-lethal solutions and common sense when they're plainly stated, or at least have his arguments make a little bit of sense.

[+Kai Team]

deleted double post

Edited September 30, 2004 by Kai Team

[+HoundGrrls]

I protect myself and my two dogs from strange people and strange dogs. Some strangers have petted very roughly (so no more stranger pets) and my dogs have been bitten. Even the sweetest docile looking dog may at the very least get muddy paw prints on you if not scratch you in their exuberance. Umbrellas have long been used by dog walkers to protect against lose dogs (open umbrella with flair seems scary; after initial impact wears off open/close open/close use as sheild.) Voltage works too.

[teamh3]

I think I liked the idea of the halt spray the best.. I have mace but I worry about using it. A person who is maced will usually be more than happy to have help afterwards (real mace, not that stuff they sell at the local mall) but dogs act on instinct and I feel it could almost be as damaging as shooting. Does anyone know where I could find something like that (I am guessing that the local pet store would be the wrong place to ask.)

 

Edited for spelling

Edited October 1, 2004 by teamh3

[+Kai Team]

The dog repellent pepper sprays are formulated at at lower concentration than those designed for use on humans because dogs don't have tear ducts to clear it out of their eyes as quickly.

 

If you want to buy online, see Lab Saftey Supply, OMark Safety Online, or for Mace brand dog repellent: Safety Gear HQ, Bugspray.com.

 

I can't personally recommend one or the other (i.e. I haven't bought from them myself), and you can find other sites carrying these products by searching Google for "Halt Dog Repellent" (with the quotations).

Edited October 1, 2004 by Kai Team

[+HoundGrrls]

...forgot to mention that if you are going to use an umbrella as a scare tactic and you walk dogs of your own, you need to train them not to fear it else you'd have a mess o' leashes or worse.