Members Only Caches

[+TeamRussell]

I became a member very quickly after starting out. (Ducking the flames here) Thinking was - "why not pay my 'small', but I am sure, 'appreciated' share?". A very resonable amount if you ask me. That was my primary reason.

Of course my secondary reasons are self-serving. I wanted to be able to hunt for members only caches too. How do you find them? I see the icon that would one, but have yet to see one. I wonder if the absence of them in my area (Eastern MA) indicates that they are frowned upon for some reason that a greenie like myself does not yet see. Thanks.

 

TR Edited to change wording a bit.

Edited September 26, 2004 by TeamRussell

[+southdeltan]

I wouldn't say they were frowned upon, it's just that most people don't see the point.

 

Most people who hide caches want them to be found. If you limit it to "Members Only" then that cuts down on how many people will find them.

 

Typically, people who do make their caches "Members Only" are either new geocachers (who became Premium Mem early) or a new Premium Mem who wants to try out the feature OR people who have had caches stolen and they want to limit who can see their caches. Of course, PM's can be thieves too. There's also the "Audit Log" feature that shows who has viewed the page - but people can set up a PQ and get the coordinates (if they are a PM) w/out viewing the page.

 

There are also several bugs that allow people to find the coordinates to MO caches w/out being a member.

 

Some people will start their caches out as "MO" caches for a short period of time, to let Members have a crack at FTF as well.

 

Anyways, I wouldn't say they're "frowned upon" just not very popular for quite a few reasons...

 

sd

[+BadAndy]

MOC's are a good way to protect caches from cache maggots. If you have no local problem with plundered caches, you may not see any MOC's in your area. I think about the only people that frown on them are non paying members, akin to the guy driving a Geo complaining about humvees on the road.

[+New England n00b]

There are some in my area set by cachers explicitly for rewarding supporters. I like 'em.

Edited September 26, 2004 by New England n00b

[+radioscout]

Some weeks ago, two MO caches had been hidden in Germany. After a short and heavy discussion in the forum both had been changed to normal caches.

There are about 20 MO caches in Europe. One in Luxembourg (the only MO cache I have logged), 3 in The Netherlands and some in Italy and the UK.

[+Muirwoody]

 

There's also the "Audit Log" feature that shows who has viewed the page

Could you explain what this is and where to access it, etc. Thanks.

[+Renegade Knight]

 

There's also the "Audit Log" feature that shows who has viewed the page

Could you explain what this is and where to access it, etc. Thanks.

If you have a MOC you will see a link to it on your cache page.

 

It shows who's looked at your cache, and how many times, and if I recall recently, the date they last looked.

[+Muirwoody]

RK, Thanks.

 

Since none of my caches are MOC, that explains why I have never seen it.

[+TeamRussell]

Thank you all for the feedback. I can see there are some good reasons too make a MOC, and also understand why there may not be any locally.

 

I asked GSPeak how to find them and they replied that I could find them if I did a pocket query.

[+radioscout]

And if you hide a MOC make sure that you NEVER enter the cache coordinates in the coordinates data field of the cache reporting form. Always enter the parking coordinates.

A non-member can't view the listing but can determine the distance from the MOC to other caches and calculate the coordinates of the MOC.

[+YuccaPatrol]

I have seen caches in my area that are initially released as member's only for a limited time after placement. After a couple weeks, they are opened up to everyone.

 

I like that system, as it gives the most active serious members the chance to find a cache and trade for the original quality trade items in the cache, but still allows the non-paying hoardes a chance to come later on and leave their McToys behind.

 

note: I do understand that not all paying members trade quality items nor do all non-paying members trade McToys for quality trade items.

[+Divine]

I've seen MOCs placed in Finland so that the owner changed them to normal caches after the first finder logging his/her find. It was the hiders way to give a FTF possibility for those who chipped in for supportig the site.

[+Runaround]

I think my next cache will be a MOC. I've yet to find one and the only that was in the area was over 50 miles away. I haven't been to that area recently and I'm not sure if the cache is even still there or still a MOC.

[+JohnnyVegas]

I sometimes start my caches as members only with items like gift certificates for Baskin Robbins, Starbucks and other shops, once those are gone I open the cache for anyone. I like including something other than trinkets to those who pay the small amount it cost to be a premium member to support grounspeak.

 

For those who feel left out, well just become a premium member, is not the expensive.

[rescue557]

Typically, people who do make their caches "Members Only" are either new geocachers (who became Premium Mem early) or a new Premium Mem who wants to try out the feature OR people who have had caches stolen and they want to limit who can see their caches. Of course, PM's can be thieves too. There's also the "Audit Log" feature that shows who has viewed the page - but people can set up a PQ and get the coordinates (if they are a PM) w/out viewing the page.

My cache started out as Premium Members Only, but I found that most geocachers are not paying members, and until I removed the restriction, I had absolutely no visits! I must admit that I have visited Premium Member only caches and they're usually no different than standard caches.

[Major Catastrophe]

MOCs are frowned upon, mostly by those who choose not to pony up the dough for membership.

[thorin]

MOCs are frowned upon, mostly by those who choose not to pony up the dough for membership.

And those who find them elitist or disclusionist (or whatever you choose to call it). As for "those who choose not to pony up the dough for membership", alot of people don't see any point in spending $30 a year for PQs, the OT forum, MOCs, a special logo, and "warm fuzzies".

 

Thorin

[+tirediron]

One more vote for the "Don't see the point" camp. The more people that find my cache, the better I like it!

[Pto]

... As for "those who choose not to pony up the dough for membership", alot of people don't see any point in spending $30 a year for PQs, the OT forum, MOCs, a special logo, and "warm fuzzies".

 

That would be me.....

An OT forum? Woopeeeee

[+CapnJackSparrow]

And those who find them elitist or disclusionist (or whatever you choose to call it). As for "those who choose not to pony up the dough for membership", alot of people don't see any point in spending $30 a year for PQs, the OT forum, MOCs, a special logo, and "warm fuzzies".

 

Thorin

Just my two cents, but the extras that you mention are not the point of the $30 a year, they are bonuses for the people who help support geocaching.com and Groundspeak. Servers, programs, and programing, not to mention the time spent putting them all together, are not free. Yet, you are still allowed to use these services for free. I have owned two web sites in the past that both went "belly up" because I couldn't muster the support needed to help me afford them. If I were TPTB of these web sites and services I would require membership. How would you like to work at your job for free?

 

Edit: I would also like to add that there is no advertising on these sites other than "on topic" ads, and no annoying pop-ups, flashing "You've Just Won" banners ... etc. Which I greatly appreciate because my (P) doesn't need to be larger and I'm not overweight!

Edited October 1, 2004 by CapnJackSparrow

[+AtoZ]

The main reason I see people do MOC caches is that they think the Premium Members are a higher calibar or more respectful cacher so they put nicer stuff in the cache. I dont know????

cheers

[thorin]

Just my two cents, but the extras that you mention are not the point of the $30 a year, they are bonuses for the people who help support geocaching.com and Groundspeak. Servers, programs, and programing, not to mention the time spent putting them all together, are not free. Yet, you are still allowed to use these services for free.

I know plenty of people who would be more then willing to make donations in support of these services unfortunately that's not an option, it's $30 for the "bonuses" or nothing. Isn't that a subscription (like a newspaper)? When was the last time the cancer society (er whatever) came to your door saying "we're looking for support but we'll only accept $30"?

How would you like to work at your job for free?

To each their own. It's a choice. Lets think about this.

 

• According to the subscription page they have 4 servers (that might be outta date but I have nothing else to go on). Lets assume they're leased for $250 a month ($1000 for all 4). ($12,000 yr)

• Lets assume a couple FWs/Switches/etc @ $250 a month. ($3,000 yr)

• Say they only have 1 T1 @ $1000 a month? ($12,000)

• I know there are atleast 2 significant contributing members (ie: Jeremy and Elias). 2x50k/yr ($100,000 yr) [50k is not alot]

- Those numbers are all very conservative, most sysadmins make more then 50k. And I know they've been hunting for load balancing network appliances (not cheap at all) etc...

 

So that's like ~$130,000 a year (rounded). Does gc.com have anywhere near 4333 paying members? I don't have any idea in actuallity (someone PLEASE correct me if you actually know) but my guess is they're way below that, which means they obviously have another source of income (product sales etc....I dunno).

 

I'm making alot of assumptions here, and I'm sure we could nitpick my fictional numbers but it still illustrates the point. If there were a huge need for financial support aside for paying for subscriptions (bonuses as you call them) then I'm sure they'd have come up with a way for people to support them with donations (paypal tip jar whatever.....)

 

I would also like to add that there is no advertising on these sites other than "on topic" ads, and no annoying pop-ups, flashing "You've Just Won" banners ... etc.

I know what you're getting at, and I know alot of people have appreciated adless sites int he past, however the point today is wasted on anyone who is even slightly technically inclined (alternate browsers, popupblockers, and adblockers take are of that for most people these days).

 

Sorry everyone I didn't mean to rant, I kinda got carried away......it's ok if you ignore me beacuse I can understand if I'm not making sense. It's been a long day and I've blabbed alot more then I originally planned when I hit reply.

 

Thorin

[The Bluetooth's]

Good post Thorin

 

I understand the costs and needs associated with the site and all, and my excuse right now for not being a member is being too low on cash. Unfortunately I know several cachers in my area with the problem, although $30 is a pidly amount to pay for a whole year. Although we are planning on obtaining a membership to support our beloved sport

 

Anyway back on topic...

 

I would have to agree that the majority of people choose to either want the most possible logs in their cache, or to give good prizes out to those members before making the cache a members only cache. That would be my guess anyway, and I kinda feel the same way. I want everyone to enjoy my caches, and I want as many as possible to sign my logs, so when I do obtain membership the majority of mine, if not all will remain open to everyone.

 

Just my take.

[thorin]

I understand the costs and needs associated with the site and all, and my excuse right now for not being a member is being too low on cash. Unfortunately I know several cachers in my area with the problem, although $30 is a pidly amount to pay for a whole year. Although we are planning on obtaining a membership to support our beloved sport

Don't worry you definately aren't alone in that boat.

[+Anonymous']

I don't see the point of member only caches, I like people to find mine.

[+Jennifer&Dean]

There are about 14 within 50 miles of Missoula, Mt. They are some of the least visited caches in Montana.

So if you want to see the icon, just go to Montana and choose Missoula as the city to start from.

-Jennifer

[+Renegade Knight]

There are quite a few around Pocatello. I treat they like any other cache. They will be there when I get to them. I don't seek them out special, nor do I avoid them. It takes more effort to figure out which are MOC than it does to just go caching like I normally do.

Edited October 1, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+SixDogTeam]

I've made a few of my recent hides (3 days ago) members only just to see what's going on...Some of my other caches, that have only a small number of finds, have upwards of 150 visits according to the counter.! So who on earth are all these people and why are they visiting my cache pages? So now, with the members only, I'm finding out and so far its kind of interesting--people start viewing the cache pages almost as soon as they are approved- and some visit over and over again... and some from really far away--and people who've never found any of my hides... we'll see...

[+Team Neos]

I've made a few of my recent hides (3 days ago) members only just to see what's going on...

I just went to look at your pages to see what you had done. I am not sure that I would have made some of the caches in a series members only.

 

(actually, I am sure that I personally would not make any caches members only)

 

--but what I mean is that if I were going to make members only caches, either the entire series would be 'members only' or none of the series would be 'members only'

[+brodiebunch]

There seem to be only a few MOC's here in the Seattle area. Most folk want their caches to be found by as many as possible. I know I do.

 

I made one of my caches an MOC after another cacher started harassing me about TB's at the cache's website. They werent a premium member and they would not stop posting the same msg. They had not even found the cache! I regretted making it an MOC because that cache goes for weeks without being found (reasonably isolated location-small park in an industrial area off the beaten path) Fortunately for now, the harasser has stopped (fingers crossed) and the cache is open to all.

 

I didnt know there were other ways to access a MOC as others mentioned. Also as a premium member, I have found two MOC's and personally I dont see why they are so. I had thought they were supposedly something special, available only to paying members. They are good caches, but nothing so fantastic their access should be limited.

 

My three cents (inflation)

[Boxtop]

Just started into this fun sport today. “Premium Membership” and "Members Only" somehow seems a bit elitist for this endeavor. Supported the group purchasing $60 (only Canadian sorry) of Geocoins and would consider other options. Reading the previous posts I hope more harmonious ways of economic support can be developed. Sorry….Canadian and all hey…..

[+SixDogTeam]

I just went to look at your pages to see what you had done. I am not sure that I would have made some of the caches in a series members only.

 

My plan from the beginning was to open these caches up after a while...but now I have to figure out why cachers from Australia are looking at my pages! I'm just having fun here... But you do have a point--I have had cacher teams from two neighboring states come and do a lot of the caches in our series-- and several local groups who have done all or nearly all of them... And, to your point, one local cacher has placed his own cache near one of mine, as a friendly protest to the members-only caches, and put our name in the Cache name. It is an outstanding cache, better than most of ours, and we are flattered--and just last weekend that same cacher hid and we found one of the absolute best caches we have ever found...So I think we are having a good time here, and not hurting anybody-- It seems like a really big percentage of the local cachers are premium members anyway.

[+fly46]

MOC's are a good way to protect caches from cache maggots. If you have no local problem with plundered caches, you may not see any MOC's in your area. I think about the only people that frown on them are non paying members, akin to the guy driving a Geo complaining about humvees on the road.

That's warped logic.

You're saying that because someone won't/can't pay for premium membership that having caches available to them will increase muggle-ability.

Most caches plundered aren't plundered by cachers, so it doesn't make a hill of beans whether or not the cache is listed or not.

[+as77]

I also think MOCs are generally elitist. However, a local cacher recently placed an MOC with the explanation that it is a sensitive area and he wants to minimize the number of cachers visiting the location. That seems to be a valid reason to me. The parking is in a quiet residential neighborhood in a dead-end street where people always notice strangers parking in front of their houses and they may not like hordes of cachers appearing.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Most caches plundered aren't plundered by cachers, so it doesn't make a hill of beans whether or not the cache is listed or not.

The most pervasive argument against MOC as a means of cache maggot control is that they could easily spend the 3 bucks for a month and target the MOC caches just to make a point.

 

The most pervasive argument for MOC is that odds are the cache maggot won't bother to pay. It's not about elitist or anything else. When all your caches are being stolen it gets discouraging. MOC is about continuting to play the game, placing caches to find, and not taking your ball and going home.

 

Most caches plundered in most places are accidental finds. I agree with this assumption.

 

However BadAndy and I don't live in most places. We have a cache maggot who targets caches and is a power cacher to boot. They have not yet 'just gone away' and it's been a year. We have enough MOC caches to say that so far it seems to be working. They are sticking around better than the regular caches. In this area we are past the theoretical debate of if a non paying member is more likley to steal a cache. The local cache scene has been shaped by one person to the detriment of all, paying and non paying members alike.

[+Eswau]

I have 1 MO cache and I made it that way because it has a little different twist to it and since it's in the middle of town, I didn't want someone to go buy a GPS at Walmart and see that my cache was the closest, and decide to make it their first cache to try and find.

 

It wouldn't be a good beginners experience.

 

E

[CoyoteRed]

Have you ever considered the possibility this maggot might just be doing it to force the placement of MOC's?

 

If I were really, really gungho on this site and had no scruples, I could have a warped sense of loyalty and consider folks who don't pay-to-play as lesser folks. By only attacking non-MOCs the community would tend to do exactly what you are doing and place more MOCs forcing others to be members to hunt them.

 

Of course, by actually saying this is the case would likely back-fire, so you'd have to remain silient and make the caching population think you're a non-member yourself.

 

Far fetched, but a possibility. Just bringing it up as something to consider.

[+JoGPS]

Twenty Five percent of my caches are MOC, does that make me elitist, I don’t think so, its merely a different tool that I have, and use it in placing caches.

 

Do MOC cache hunters do better trading, NOPE

Do my MOC get stolen or muggied less, YES

Will I open them up after a while, NOPE

 

To me it also a reward to those other paying members that play the game the same way I do………… JOE

[+as77]

To me it also a reward to those other paying members that play the game the same way I do

That exactly makes you an elitist.

[+Team Perks]

I see.

 

If I place a subscriber-only cache, non-members cannot find it. Therefore I am an elitist.

 

If I place a cache that requires the use of a boat, someone without the financial resources to buy a boat cannot find it.

 

If I place a cache that requires a six-mile hike, someone not physically capable of long hikes cannot find it.

 

If I place a multi-cache that requires three days to complete all the steps, someone who is only in the area for one day cannot find it.

 

Am I therefore elitist for placing any of these other caches?

[+as77]

Am I therefore elitist for placing any of these other caches?

No, I wouldn't think so.

 

However, MOCs are different in the sense that it's not the ability of the cacher or the equipment or the placement of the cache that prevents non-premium members from finding it. It's that the owner intentionally chooses not to reveal the location and the description of the cache to non-paying members and they are also excluded from logging the cache.

 

If you said that you wouldn't share the location and description of your cache with a handicapped person, or a person with a different hair color than you, and you would prevent them from logging it even if they managed to find it then I would call you an elitist. Or something worse.

[CoyoteRed]

Don't we revisit this issue about every other month?

 

Marking a cache as an MOC only adds a single test. It doesn't add a test where you must overcome some challenge by being smart enough or physical enough. It doesn't add a challenge of having the right gear or knowledge. The only thing marking a cache as MOC adds is the question of if you paid Groundspeak for the privilege of being a paid member.

 

Question: are there any other caches with a similar requirement?

 

Don't get me wrong. There are perfectly valid reasons for making a cache MO. Trying to thwart maggots or just cutting down on the traffic, both are perfectly valid reasons to do so because presently there isn't a better way to handle it. But in many folks' eyes, placing a cache as MOC just to award folks that pay to play does smack of elitism. In essence, it also is the same as punishing those that choose to not pay. I do support this site, but I won't ever place a cache to punish a group because they choose to spend their money elsewhere.

[+JoGPS]

As mentioned above twenty five percent of my caches were MOC, and was told that I was elitist , but what about the other 75 percent.

 

I don’t hide caches to punish any group but reward another group for playing the game the way I do.

 

Having fun………….. JOE

[+Team Perks]

I won't ever place a cache to punish a group because they choose to spend their money elsewhere.

I can see both sides of the argument here, BUT I just don't see how what you said is punishment. Exactly how does it punish someone?

 

Is it because a non-subscriber can't find it? So let's say that instead of a placing a MOC, I don't place a cache at all...is that also punishment?

 

In practical terms, if I'm not a subscriber, it makes no difference whether I place a MOC or don't place a cache at all.

[+Renegade Knight]

Have you ever considered the possibility this maggot might just be doing it to force the placement of MOC's?...

That never did occure to me.

[CoyoteRed]

In practical terms, if I'm not a subscriber, it makes no difference whether I place a MOC or don't place a cache at all.

Except for the fact you will continuously see that MOC sitting on your nearest list and know the only reason you can't hunt it is because someone chose to exclude you based on the fact you've not paid.

 

Not hunting a cache because you choose to not hunt it is one thing. Not being able to hunt one because someone chose to exclude you based the fact you choose to not financially support a site--even though you might support it in other means--is something completely different.

 

Hopefully, when the new "buddy lists" come out there will be a way to secure a listing in a different manner.

[+StressMaster]

I places most of my cache with the intent that everyone will be able to get to them.. I do tend to start some of my better caches or caches in a nature sensitive areas as MOC. My intention is not to exclude or reward anyone but to try to control the mass rush to a new cache location. I live in a area that has a large number of cachers that are very active and involved by starting the cache out as a MOC it tends to slow down the rush and I have seen less enviormental impact. Yes some might feel cheated out of FTF but the challenge, Hunt and the Location are the prize not the McToys.

[+JoGPS]

As I have said before we hide MOC because we can for a lot of different reasons , not to exclude anyone.

 

Look at this way they are excluding them self’s for being a slacker, we are talking about 30 bucks a year, pennies a day this topic has been beat to death.

 

Nothing has changed…………. JOE

[+CompuCash]

I just went to look at your pages to see what you had done. I am not sure that I would have made some of the caches in a series members only.

 

My plan from the beginning was to open these caches up after a while...but now I have to figure out why cachers from Australia are looking at my pages! I'm just having fun here... But you do have a point--I have had cacher teams from two neighboring states come and do a lot of the caches in our series-- and several local groups who have done all or nearly all of them... And, to your point, one local cacher has placed his own cache near one of mine, as a friendly protest to the members-only caches, and put our name in the Cache name. It is an outstanding cache, better than most of ours, and we are flattered--and just last weekend that same cacher hid and we found one of the absolute best caches we have ever found...So I think we are having a good time here, and not hurting anybody-- It seems like a really big percentage of the local cachers are premium members anyway.

 

well I have a suggestion - if all these far away viewers are after you posted these notes all they had to do is go to your profile - click conventional - scroll down to one of the MOC's and look at it -

 

as in this one-

Indiana Spirit Quest #53: Battle of Champion Hill

 

with the bad photo link under the monument folder <grin- just to let you know I got there>

[CoyoteRed]

Look at this way they are excluding them self’s for being a slacker, we are talking about 30 bucks a year, pennies a day this topic has been beat to death.

Question: Do you hunt these "slackers'" caches? If so, and considering you appear to have very little regard for them, why? Did they not contribute to your find count?