Event Cache Denied

[+DasheyFam]

I do understand the reasons behind the guidelines. If they allowed this type of event, then you know that some people would try to bend the rules and try to turn every geocache outing into an event to get that extra smiley. Therefore, events that are for the sole purpose of getting a group together to go caching do not qualify for an extra smiley.

 

What gets me though, is the apparent attitudes of the Admins. I'm sure it must be frustrating having to refer people to the guidelines all the time, but the responses needn't be so harsh. It doesn't seem to make much difference which Admin is responding either, so I'm not talking about any one in particular. I'm assuming they have a standard list of responses for various infractions. The messages always seem to say "you're an idiot, you should know better, shame on you." Well ok, not that exact phrase, but that's the way it comes across. Am I just being overly sensitive, or do others feel the same way?

 

*** strange feeling I'll never get another cache approved in my life! ***

I have had most of my caches in this area quickly approved, either by crashmore or mtn-man. The only frustration I have had is that I rarely get a response to e-mails asking for a specific reason why a cache was not approved or on how to make it approvable, if possible.

 

I understand the necessity of cut-and-paste answers with the great volume of caches our volunteers handle. I hope the approvers also remember the work that goes into placing a cache, even one that is not approved.

 

Anyway, there's my 2c worth. . .

[+5¢]

So I read this entire post and see both sides. My confusion is that once again smileys are frowned upon. What am I missing? Is the understanding that we put caches out and don't want people to find them.....excuse me, we don't want people to find too many of them? (Especially at one time.) I believe what the person who started the thread was doing was inviting people to his area and was going to lead them to the quickest route to find virtual caches. ( Which in general do not take a lot of searching as it usually is something so obvious a complete idiot could find.) If I happen to be vacationing in DC at the time I believe I would greatly appreciate someone doing this for me. He is not walking people to a 5/5 and saying here it is sign the book. All he is doing is being a tour guide and letting people find virts in the quickest way possible while showing them around the area. Granted technically an event is not the right way to do this but there is no other alternative to do this. He does not know who will happen to be in DC that weekend, so he can not email them to let them know he will be doing this. Without an alternative correct way to do this he had no option other than what he did. My 2 cents probably not worth a quarter of that.

 

By the way smileys are not the work of the devil.

[+mtn-man]

Granted technically an event is not the right way to do this but there is no other alternative to do this.

This is a geocaching web site, not a geocache tourism web site. Event cache criteria is spelled out in the guidelines. Ways to do what the original poster wants to do have been suggested here. It is done successfully all the time. I have been taken around by people and I have taken people around myself. I didn't need a cache page to make it happen. It just takes a little more work than just posting a cache page and seeing who shows up.

 

It is not the intended purpose of the event cache type. This is also specifically spelled out in the guidelines. It is clearly in black and white so I cannot approve this type of cache. The only remedy at this point is for the OP to write the upper level admins for the site for and exemption from the guidelines.

[+briansnat]

So I read this entire post and see both sides. My confusion is that once again smileys are frowned upon. What am I missing? Is the understanding that we put caches out and don't want people to find them.....

 

What the heck are you talking about?

[+JoeCthulhu]

Granted technically an event is not the right way to do this but there is no other alternative to do this.

This is a geocaching web site, not a geocache tourism web site. Event cache criteria is spelled out in the guidelines. Ways to do what the original poster wants to do have been suggested here. It is done successfully all the time. I have been taken around by people and I have taken people around myself. I didn't need a cache page to make it happen. It just takes a little more work than just posting a cache page and seeing who shows up.

 

It is not the intended purpose of the event cache type. This is also specifically spelled out in the guidelines. It is clearly in black and white so I cannot approve this type of cache. The only remedy at this point is for the OP to write the upper level admins for the site for and exemption from the guidelines.

Dear mtn-man,

 

I've e-mailed you my cell phone number and would still like the opportunity to discuss this with you. I still believe that I've complied with the guidelines for the event cache that is currently in the que.

 

From your post of 9/27, however, I'm getting the impression that your mind is already made up. If that is the case, could you please inform me who the "upper level admins" are. I'm not really familiar with this process. Previously I've always either been able to convince an admin that my cache was appropriate, or they were able to convince me why it wasn't.

 

I don't really want to elevate the matter. I would really like to settle it between us. You mentioned previously that you would speak to me. If you would e-mail me you number and best time to call, I'd be happy to do it on my nickel.

[+ShadowAce]

This event is a gathering of geocachers by geocaher to discuss geocaching.  No where does the guideines state that the event has to be at one static location.

 

This cache isn’t set up for the sole purpose of drawing cachers together for an organized hunt of caches.  I know you may be having a difficult time believing this, based upon my initial submittal, but it is true.  I wrote it up inappropriately the first time based upon my ignorance and because I thought it would entice cachers to attending.  However, I expect many of the cachers who would be attending would have already logged all the caches along the route in question.  As you are aware, the vast majority of virtual caches in DC are right on the street.  If someone wants to stop and log a couple I don’t want to prevent them.  Anyway, the guidelines do not say that you can’t hunt caches, only that it can’t be the sole purpose.  I believe I’ve met that standard.

 

Went out caching last weekend and had a minor accident.. The log about it. Now I am thinking about going to your event cache. Both legs are swollen and the kneews are not doing so well. Left hand is working but not so well. I wont be able to walk 8 miles, that is without a doubt, but I really want to visit with the other cachers...

 

Would you be able to carry me or something so we can chat? or ill you just wave at me as you walk off to do your cache numbers?

 

In the past every event I have gone to was centered at a place.. Those who could not play the games at the event could still sit and be part of it. Where on this eight mile hike can the injured and less fit or ill people partake in it?

 

..Edited to shorten..

Edited September 28, 2004 by ShadowAce

[avroair]

Sweet all the more reason to have a geocaching MURDER!!!!

 

I have hosted and attended a couple of events and in my experience it is both the wording and intent of the event that gets it approved needing modification. If you have an idea you can always bring it to the forums or e-mail the approver first to see if it will fly.

 

My personal viewpoint is far stricter than the liberal interpretations given in the guidelines, events should be officially sanctioned since they involve working with reservations, parks, picnic areas etc. and officially represent geocaching. Therefore, admins should work closely with organizers (rather than just approving or rejecting) to put together a well executed plan.

 

Much like if you are wearing a lifeguard shirt, you are legally obligated to save someone, we are ambassaders for geocaching.com and represent the website at our events.

 

Just my thoughts

[+JoeCthulhu]

This event is a gathering of geocachers by geocaher to discuss geocaching.  No where does the guideines state that the event has to be at one static location.

 

This cache isn’t set up for the sole purpose of drawing cachers together for an organized hunt of caches.  I know you may be having a difficult time believing this, based upon my initial submittal, but it is true.  I wrote it up inappropriately the first time based upon my ignorance and because I thought it would entice cachers to attending.  However, I expect many of the cachers who would be attending would have already logged all the caches along the route in question.  As you are aware, the vast majority of virtual caches in DC are right on the street.  If someone wants to stop and log a couple I don’t want to prevent them.  Anyway, the guidelines do not say that you can’t hunt caches, only that it can’t be the sole purpose.  I believe I’ve met that standard.

 

Went out caching last weekend and had a minor accident.. The log about it. Now I am thinking about going to your event cache. Both legs are swollen and the kneews are not doing so well. Left hand is working but not so well. I wont be able to walk 8 miles, that is without a doubt, but I really want to visit with the other cachers...

 

Would you be able to carry me or something so we can chat? or ill you just wave at me as you walk off to do your cache numbers?

 

In the past every event I have gone to was centered at a place.. Those who could not play the games at the event could still sit and be part of it. Where on this eight mile hike can the injured and less fit or ill people partake in it?

 

..Edited to shorten..

I'd be happy to take a turn pushing your wheelchair.

[Keystone]

Granted technically an event is not the right way to do this but there is no other alternative to do this.

This is a geocaching web site, not a geocache tourism web site. Event cache criteria is spelled out in the guidelines. Ways to do what the original poster wants to do have been suggested here. It is done successfully all the time. I have been taken around by people and I have taken people around myself. I didn't need a cache page to make it happen. It just takes a little more work than just posting a cache page and seeing who shows up.

 

It is not the intended purpose of the event cache type. This is also specifically spelled out in the guidelines. It is clearly in black and white so I cannot approve this type of cache. The only remedy at this point is for the OP to write the upper level admins for the site for and exemption from the guidelines.

Dear mtn-man,

 

I've e-mailed you my cell phone number and would still like the opportunity to discuss this with you. I still believe that I've complied with the guidelines for the event cache that is currently in the que.

 

From your post of 9/27, however, I'm getting the impression that your mind is already made up. If that is the case, could you please inform me who the "upper level admins" are. I'm not really familiar with this process. Previously I've always either been able to convince an admin that my cache was appropriate, or they were able to convince me why it wasn't.

 

I don't really want to elevate the matter. I would really like to settle it between us. You mentioned previously that you would speak to me. If you would e-mail me you number and best time to call, I'd be happy to do it on my nickel.

I see that the proposed event cache still contemplates just an organized hunt for other caches, with nothing added in response to the suggestions made. Therefore, it still cannot be listed in its current form.

 

If you would like an exemption from the event cache definitions, you should write to the contact at geocaching dot com e-mail address. If you would like to lodge a complaint concerning the volunteer reviewers' application of the listing guidelines to your cache, you should write to the approvers at geocaching dot com e-mail address. In either case, the issue is likely to land on the desk of Hydee. The last we heard in our Reviewers Forum from Hydee on the issue of event caches was at the end of July when we were scolded for giving too much leeway in the interpretation of the guidelines.

[+JoeCthulhu]

Granted technically an event is not the right way to do this but there is no other alternative to do this.

This is a geocaching web site, not a geocache tourism web site. Event cache criteria is spelled out in the guidelines. Ways to do what the original poster wants to do have been suggested here. It is done successfully all the time. I have been taken around by people and I have taken people around myself. I didn't need a cache page to make it happen. It just takes a little more work than just posting a cache page and seeing who shows up.

 

It is not the intended purpose of the event cache type. This is also specifically spelled out in the guidelines. It is clearly in black and white so I cannot approve this type of cache. The only remedy at this point is for the OP to write the upper level admins for the site for and exemption from the guidelines.

Dear mtn-man,

 

I've e-mailed you my cell phone number and would still like the opportunity to discuss this with you. I still believe that I've complied with the guidelines for the event cache that is currently in the que.

 

From your post of 9/27, however, I'm getting the impression that your mind is already made up. If that is the case, could you please inform me who the "upper level admins" are. I'm not really familiar with this process. Previously I've always either been able to convince an admin that my cache was appropriate, or they were able to convince me why it wasn't.

 

I don't really want to elevate the matter. I would really like to settle it between us. You mentioned previously that you would speak to me. If you would e-mail me you number and best time to call, I'd be happy to do it on my nickel.

I see that the proposed event cache still contemplates just an organized hunt for other caches, with nothing added in response to the suggestions made. Therefore, it still cannot be listed in its current form.

 

If you would like an exemption from the event cache definitions, you should write to the contact at geocaching dot com e-mail address. If you would like to lodge a complaint concerning the volunteer reviewers' application of the listing guidelines to your cache, you should write to the approvers at geocaching dot com e-mail address. In either case, the issue is likely to land on the desk of Hydee. The last we heard in our Reviewers Forum from Hydee on the issue of event caches was at the end of July when we were scolded for giving too much leeway in the interpretation of the guidelines.

Thank you for the 2nd opinion.

 

The cache page has been revised.

 

Am I getting closer?

[+mtn-man]

Thank you for the 2nd opinion.

 

The cache page has been revised. 

 

Am I getting closer?

So if I call the deli they will know that between 10 and 40 people are going to be there at 1 PM for a meeting? What was the estimation of the number of people that you told the deli were going to show?

 

You are just throwing this together. I don't think I have ever seen an event planned 18 days before it happened. I would think you would need at least 30 days to give people time to know and plan for it.

 

(Sorry, had the time frame wrong.)

Edited September 28, 2004 by mtn-man

[+robert]

I'd be happy to take a turn pushing your wheelchair.

I'll take it when we get over by the Tidal Basin.

 

[+robert]

You could always set-up an event with some bogus virts, let people log the event multiple times (one for each bogus virt you set up), then turn 'em loose to find the legit ones on their own.

Edited September 28, 2004 by robert

[+romulusnr]

Either your approver is extremely picky, or else there is a big schism between how Northeast admins handle event caches and how other areas handle them.

 

In the NorthWest we have had over a dozen (at least) event caches where caching has been the main focus of the event. Not just the many "Cache Machine" sunrise-to-sundown caching events put together by TravisL, but also smaller events such as

Geocache Poker Run, Freedom from Work Cache-A-Thon, and Welcome to Seattle.

 

Nearly all of these have included a dinner at the end -- so maybe that's their saving grace. But honestly, 13 hours of caching followed by 1-2 hours of dinner isn't really focusing on the dinner part.

 

Realistically, when cachers get together, whether they're eating or caching, they're going to discuss caches and caching. They're also going to be able to show off their caching techniques, tools, GPSrs, and not just talk about them but actually show them in use. Not to mention expose each other to new cache ideas and new tricks in a way that dinner just doesn't provide.

 

Events that focus on the caching are going to lead to more useful cache-related experiences than events that focus on food.

 

And of course, no event out here ever seems to go without an unofficial cache hunt, not even the monthly WSGA meetings. Throughout Seth! Leary's party last month, where he unveiled his new (very incredible) multi, people drifted in and out of the party as they went to nab the caches within walking distance of his house (some that don't even require leaving the property [] ).

[+mtn-man]

Either your approver is extremely picky, or else there is a big schism between how Northeast admins handle event caches and how other areas handle them.

 

In the NorthWest we have had over a dozen (at least) event caches where caching has been the main focus of the event. Not just the many "Cache Machine" sunrise-to-sundown caching events put together by TravisL, but also smaller events such as

Geocache Poker Run, Freedom from Work Cache-A-Thon, and Welcome to Seattle.

Actually, the extremely picky reviewer (that would be me) reads the guidelines. The people that posted the caches that you linked did too. All of them have a specific posted agenda. All of them have a specific gathering place mentioned.

 

1.  "The final scoring area will be at El Serape 2 on Cooper Point RD about 1/4 mile south of Red Robin since Red Robin will not accomodate a group of our size, unless we are spread out all over the restaurant. We will meet for dinner, refreshments, scoring and prize distribution at 6:00 pm."

 

2.  "I felt a need to include a Red Robin for dinner just to keep with the tradition. "

 

3.  "*EDIT* We've changed dinner from Red Robin to Marie Callendars, just across the street. They have a reservation for us at 5:00."

The cache machine is what it is (looking for caches), but the event is the gathering of geocachers at the end of the cache machine. They are looked at as two different things in cache review but they can be combined. All we have on this new submission is a cache machine and no event. It is therefore not approvable according to the guidelines.

 

Quoted for the fourth time, this time including the link again:

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#event

Event Caches

 

Event caches are gatherings for geocachers by geocachers to discuss geocaching.  After the event has passed, the event cache is archived.  While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or an orienteering event might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the primary focus of these events is not geocaching and the primary attendees are not geocachers.  In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches.  Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

 

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

[+Renegade Knight]

....You are just throwing this together. I don't think I have ever seen an event planned 18 days before it happened. I would think you would need at least 30 days to give people time to know and plan for it....

The short planning time frame doesn't really matter. They are trying to comply with the rules, get the cache listed, and keep to their date as this drags on.

 

Is that 30 days is a new guideline.

[+Nero]

Here in Western New York, we've adopted an idea from our northern neighbours in Canada - that is, the Pub Night. It's a great opportunity to sit around and chat with your fellow geocachers while enjoying a few pints.

 

You could post the event as a Pub night where you would all meet up afterwards, then invite anyone that was interested to join you earlier in the day while you go on your virtual tour.

 

I want to make it out to Washington one of these days - there seems to be lots of interesting caches/virtuals there.

 

Good luck getting your event approved.

be careful, you'll get people who say your an elitest because you have to be 21+ to get into a pub/bar!

[+mtn-man]

....You are just throwing this together.  I don't think I have ever seen an event planned 18 days before it happened.  I would think you would need at least 30 days to give people time to know and plan for it....

The short planning time frame doesn't really matter. They are trying to comply with the rules, get the cache listed, and keep to their date as this drags on.

 

Is that 30 days is a new guideline.

No, its called "planning".

 

I've told him what he needs to do over and over. He doesn't want to put the work in. Maybe event cache planning is not for him.

[+mtn-man]

....You are just throwing this together.  I don't think I have ever seen an event planned 18 days before it happened.  I would think you would need at least 30 days to give people time to know and plan for it....

The short planning time frame doesn't really matter. They are trying to comply with the rules, get the cache listed, and keep to their date as this drags on.

 

Is that 30 days is a new guideline.

No, its called "planning".

 

I've told him what he needs to do over and over. He doesn't want to put the work in. Maybe event cache planning is not for him.

Speaking of planning, it looks like some people in the Northeast know how to do it right.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=81077

 

Kudos to the people planning that hunt for a series of caches. That is the way to do it.

[+JoeCthulhu]

uncle.

[+robert]

mtn-man:

 

are you approving caches in our area now? just wondering, as someone just pointed out to me a new cache was approved recently that is less than 500' down a path from a multi, and apparently is right near stage 2 of that multi. stage 1 is 491 feet down the road, still trying to determine exactly how close it is to stage two.

 

if event cache guidelines are going to be this strictly adhered to, what about traditional caches?

 

thanks for your help.

[+mtn-man]

mtn-man:

 

are you approving caches in our area now?  just wondering, as someone just pointed out to me a new cache was approved recently that is less than 500' down a path from a multi, and apparently is right near stage 2 of that multi.  stage 1 is 491 feet down the road, still trying to determine exactly how close it is to stage two.

 

if event cache guidelines are going to be this strictly adhered to, what about traditional caches?

 

thanks for your help.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#sat

Cache Saturation

 

The approvers use a rule of thumb that caches placed within .10 miles (528 feet or 161 meters) of another cache may not be listed on the site. This is an arbitrary distance and is just a guideline, but the ultimate goal is to reduce the number of caches hidden in a particular area and to reduce confusion that might otherwise result when one cache is found while looking for another.

Just in case you did not read the guidelines, I figured I would quote and highlight the relevant section.

 

Since you are calling me out in the forums, I would expect that you would have the courtesy to email me with the link to the cache in Washington DC that you are concerned about. If I have made an error I will be happy to work with the cacher to correct the situation.

[+robert]

Just in case you did not read the guidelines, I figured I would quote and highlight the relevant section.

 

Since you are calling me out in the forums, I would expect that you would have the courtesy to email me with the link to the cache in Washington DC that you are concerned about.  If I have made an error I will be happy to work with the cacher to correct the situation.

I'm well aware of the guidelines, I actually read them again before asking just in case it had changed from the .1 rule and I missed it. I'm also aware that there are circumstances where less than .1 is approved.

 

I'm not calling you out*--just that you are the one who denied the event based on guidelines and I was wondering if you are the one that approved a regular cache using the same set of guidelines. If you are indeed the one approving the caches in this area, I'd be happy to send it to you to make sure it's within the guidelines that you adhere to. I'd rather not send an email/PM to people that aren't involved in this area as it's a waste of their time.

 

 

*Calling you out would be using your own words against you: "It is clearly in black and white so I doubt you would have approved this cache. Seems to me you don't want to put the work in. Maybe cache approving is not for you." Is there an echo in here?

 

Email on its way with cache detail(s). Thanks again for your help.

 

edit: sent email, not PM.

Edited October 1, 2004 by robert

[+IV_Warrior]

mtn-man:

 

are you approving caches in our area now? just wondering, as someone just pointed out to me a new cache was approved recently that is less than 500' down a path from a multi, and apparently is right near stage 2 of that multi. stage 1 is 491 feet down the road, still trying to determine exactly how close it is to stage two.

 

if event cache guidelines are going to be this strictly adhered to, what about traditional caches?

 

thanks for your help.

Well, let's see. Reviewers have been asking for the coords for all stages of multis lately, so they can check all stages against other caches, and other "guideline issues". From what I've heard (and it makes sense) they're trying to keep these coords 'on file' to check future cache submissions against known stages of multis, so I'd say the answer to your question is YES.

 

Again, as mtn-man pointed out, it is a guideline, not a rule, and can be "flexed" in certain circumstances. Also, I don't know the age of the multi you're talking about, but if it was submitted before they started asking for coords for all stages, how's the reviewer to know that the new cache is "too close" to an existing stage, or even final stage, of a multi?

[+mtn-man]

As I said, if the cache is in Washington DC then I probably reviewed it. If it is in MD or VA, then I did not.

[+mtn-man]

The cache is in Baltimore, which is not near Washington DC.

 

I will check into it all the same. Ironically, I know that area where this cache in question is pretty well too.

 

IV Warrior, you are correct on all counts. Thanks.

[avroair]

Wow! This turned sour in a hurry.

 

How about just having a group hunt without an event? Saves you the trouble of having to deal with the planning. Just a suggestion.

Edited October 1, 2004 by avroair

[+robert]

Not meant to be sour, sorry if it came across that way. I've seen the arguments back and forth on the reviewer job and wouldn't want it. It's enough work just reading these forums sometimes.

 

Apologies to mtn-man if it seemed like calling him out, 'twas not my intention. JoeC is a frequent visitor to our events, and the NoVA area (where he is), DC, and Baltimore areas are "one" so to us who live here there is no division. Those that live here, it's one big place, whereas if you're not from here you may think of it as two separate areas. To have a traditional cache approved within a few hundred feet of another while an event is denied (arguments not withstanding) just seems out of whack.

 

Maybe I forgot to take my meds today.

 

P.S. IV Warrior: I understand that the multi has been around for a bit, but the first stage is still less than 500 feet from the other cache, nothing between the two but air and asphalt, and perhaps a sidewalk. See you soon.

Edited October 1, 2004 by robert

[+Squealy]

Speaking of planning, it looks like some people in the Northeast know how to do it right.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=81077

 

Kudos to the people planning that hunt for a series of caches. That is the way to do it.

That's because we have been having our non-event, event, group-hunts since the Hudson Highlands Jaunt -

 

Can't we put this thread to bed already?

[+mtn-man]

Thanks for the note Robert. I appreciate it. I am glad it was just a misunderstanding. I understand that it is one big area like you say. From a demographic standpoint, that is how I view it and how we sell it. From a cache review standpoint there are clear boundaries because what is OK in Virginia in not OK in Maryland, etc. It is good to have clearcut boundary so each reviewer knows their area and knows it well.

 

I do DC because I know it well. I also don't mind archiving the large number of vacation virtuals that are submitted there.

 

For example, there is a new cache at the WWII Memorial. Several caches were submitted before that one was approved. I even visited the memorial before the new cache was approved. Most of the submissions were just the same old "tell me the name on the XXX statue" type. A great cache was submitted with a tough question and it was about something I totally missed while I was there (and I thought I had looked the memorial over pretty good too). Low and behold, it was a local cacher!!! Woo hoo!!!!!!!! It is a great cache and those who have found it have commented that they would never have seen it without the cache. There has even been a not found, which is unusual for a virtual. I am looking forward to seeing this item once I go back to DC. It was a pleasure to approve that virtual cache.

[+robert]

Makes sense. I grew up in NoVA where JoeCthulhu is, lived in DC for several years, now live in Baltimore. My wife commutes to DC every day and I work half way between there and here. To me, it's all one area, which is why I asked about "this area", but I see that you now divide it into states. Before Crashmore just had the whole area but now that it's split some, I know where the division lies.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I've been "out of the loop" for a little while so just getting back in the saddle right now.

 

Take care.