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Event Cache Denied


JoeCthulhu

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I'm a bit annoyed.

 

Last year I organized an event cache, the first ever in DC, where we walked around the National Mall and Tidal Basin and hit all the virtual caches as a group. I'd already made this hike the year previous, and set it up to commemorate this walk.

 

I had no idea if anyone would want to do it, and was surprised by the turnout.

 

This year some of the folks who went last year asked me to set it up again. They want to do it even it there aren't any caches to find. I freed up a weekend and submitted a cache report, only to have it denied.

 

I was confused, sent an email to the admin trying to figure out a way to hold the event and comply with the guidelines, and this is the response I received.

 

----------------------

 

I don't think you understand the idea behind the event cache.

 

"Event caches are gatherings for geocachers by geocachers to discuss

geocaching."

 

You talk about events at restaurants and such. That is fine. The GGA has

events at pavilions around GA except for our December meeting, where we meet

at a restaurant. At these meetings, all anyone talks about is geocaching.

They are not there to walk miles to find caches, they are at the event to

sit and relax and chat. Some may go out afterward to find caches, but the

primary purpose of the event should not be to find caches and chat as you

are walking to the cache. That is basically what you are proposing. The

guidelines are specific about this:

 

"In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of

drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches.

Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email

distribution list."

 

If you can find a place that will accept a gathering of 25 to 45 people for

a meeting (where you can eat or whatever), then you can have your event

cache listing. Stopping at a snack bar for 10 minutes is not an event

cache. You need to organize the event. It takes time and it takes work. I

know because I have organized about 25 + of them myself. The goal of the

event cache is not to find caches. The goal of the event cache is to relax

and meet other cachers and socialize or educate.

 

Feel free to look at our GGA event caches for examples.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?u=GaGeoAssn

 

Our next event is a challenge event. There will be dozens of caches there,

but you only get one find. There are prizes and such. Our last one was a

CITO event and then we had a meeting after that about organizational issues

and such. We have snake demonstrations, first aid classes and first aid kit

primers. We talk about taking bearings, hiding caches, creating cache

containers, what to carry in your pack, leave no trace ethics and on and on.

 

If you want to organize a walk to find caches then you will need to find

another way to contact cachers. If you can find a location to have an event

and then go out after your event to find caches then that would be fine.

 

--------------------

 

Am I right to be annoyed, or am I missing the point?

 

I took a look at some of the event that were posted (9/20-9/23) and all of them were get togethers at restaurants, birthday parties, and only of of which seemed to be even remotely related to geocaching.

 

I guess if we meet at a park or restaurant it is assumed we'll be talking about geocaching, but that geocachers can't walk and talk at the same time.

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From the guidelines (along with the approver's note in your OP):

For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.

 

Since many people have already found the caches, why not set up part of the "event" as discussing general caching and then take out people to see the caches who haven't found them.

 

IMHO, that would qualify as an event since you wouldn't ONLY be searching for caches.

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Most cache hunting type events start or end with a gathering of some type. I don't think the reason for the gathering really matters so long as time is set aside for it so that the gathering itself isnt' just a "ok everyone is here lets go" event.

 

A day long cache expidtion that ends with a BBQ is an event, especially since people could skip the day long hunt and show up for the event part.

 

But that's just my understanding.

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In an attempt to be complient I have resubmitted the event with the following description.

 

Odds on whether it'll be approved?

 

---------------

 

We will be meeting at 9:00am at the posted coordinates, and walking around the National Mall and Tidal Basin. The walk will also conclude at the posted coordinates probably around 1pm-ish. Although, you may cut out at any time. The walk is approximate 8 miles with almost no elevation changes. Wear comfortable shoe and bring water.

 

The wide sidewalks along the route make it perfect for a traveling geocaching seminar. If you’re a new geocacher looking for advise, an experienced geocacher who likes to retell of your adventures, or you just want to put some faces on some of the names you see in the logs, come on out and walk with us.

 

The route we will be following is the same as we did at last year’s event, and the same as I walked on 10-12-2002, if you want to check out my logs from that day (they’re numbered).

 

(visit link)

 

There are a about 35 virtual geocaches, including a few new ones this year, along the route, and we may pause to catch our breath or drink some water at a few of them, so you may have an opportunity to log some of them. However, even if you are able to log all 35, or so, of them, the primary purpose of this event is camaraderie.

 

GPS receivers in hand, we’re quite a sight strolling past the seat of our countries government, it’s monuments and museums.

 

If you can’t make it right on time, no matter, send me an e-mail and I’ll send you my cell phone number and you can meet up with us enroute.

 

I’d also be happy to answer any questions you may have.

 

-------------------------

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Here in Western New York, we've adopted an idea from our northern neighbours in Canada - that is, the Pub Night. It's a great opportunity to sit around and chat with your fellow geocachers while enjoying a few pints.

 

You could post the event as a Pub night where you would all meet up afterwards, then invite anyone that was interested to join you earlier in the day while you go on your virtual tour.

 

I want to make it out to Washington one of these days - there seems to be lots of interesting caches/virtuals there.

 

Good luck getting your event approved.

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I agree that there are lots of fun virtuals to be found in DC (I just did most of them recently). I also think it still looks like your trying to "sneak through" an event mainly to log the virts. JungleHair's suggestion is much better. Pick your restaurant/pub/whatever to meet at for lunch at 1pm. THAT is the event. That is the posted coords. That is what people NEED to attend. Add that there will be an optional group hike hike leaving there at 9am for a virtual tour of DC, and will return in time for the event.

 

OK, now a slight rant. In the last week I've seen listed or proposed to be listed an event to go play paintball, an event for a charity walk, an event to log caches, and an event to go camping. While these are all fun things to do with friends (most of us count other cachers as among our friends), IMNHO they don't really meet the spirit of the event guidelines. Not everything you do with another geocacher needs to be listed as an event, nor does every other hobby/interest/activity that you would like to invite other local cachers to. Right now, under the current guidelines you can pretty much get any of those other activities approved as long as you add "and meet to discuss geocaching" or something like that to the event page.

I'm afraid that as more and more people submit events that follow the letter of the guidelines but not the spirit, we are going to end up seeing that "spirit" more clearly worded and restricted, much like has happened to virtual caches. I would really hate to see that happen.

Edited by Mopar
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Right now, under the current guidelines you can pretty much get any of those other activities approved as long as you add "and meet to discuss geocaching" or something like that to the event page.

I'm afraid that as more and more people submit events that follow the letter of the guidelines but not the spirit, we are going to end up seeing that "spirit" more clearly worded and restricted, much like has happened to virtual caches. I would really hate to see that happen.

 

From my experience any time geocachers get together, the primary topic is geocaching, but I think the point of event caches is that they are chiefly a social activity where geocachers can meet and talk, even if the discussion is about the upcoming election, or the Martha Stewart trial. This is why a March of Dimes Walkathon would not qualify as an event cache, but a backyard picnic could.

 

I think what confuses some people is the fact that the point of group hunts and "cache machines" is purely social. Nobody needs to go out with 30 people to find caches, but they do so because its fun. But the TPTB decided that getting together specifically to find caches was not, in and of itself an event. I bet that part of the reason for this was that they foresaw a certain segment of the geocaching population creating events every time 2 or more people got together to hunt caches, just so they could get another smiley. Whether you agree with this or not, it's stated pretty clearly in the guidelines that "In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches." As others stated here there are ways to get a group hunt event approved within this framework as long as the primary goal of the event itself is not to hunt caches.

 

Now to differ from Mopar, I do think that getting geocachers together to play paintball, go horseback riding, camping, deep sea fishing (hmmmm there's an idea), etc... can be events. They are simply gatherings of geocachers that are centered around an activity. The most common activities that events are centered around happen to be eating and drinking, but does it have to be limited to those?

Edited by briansnat
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I'm trying to understand and not create a problem for myself. If the weather cooperates I plan to make a loop through the mountains South of the Comstock. The area is peppered with caches, well maybe thats a generous description, I'm talking maybe 8 caches total along the route I have in mind. I was going to invite local cachers to join me, we did the area north last year and everybody had a gas. The consensus among the local geocaching organization was that I should make it an event cache rather than just post an invitation to the group. The focus of the trip is the scenery, we also want some of the local cachers who are off road challenged to have a chance to ride along, and log some caches they might be excluded from otherwise.

 

So is this a cache machine, or an event? If we have a picnic mid way would that make it an event? (This will happen anyway since there is a nice Aspen grove on top that should be in full color.)

 

Edit: spelling

Edited by rusty_tlc
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Now to differ from Mopar, I do think that getting geocachers together to play paintball, go horseback riding, camping, deep sea fishing (hmmmm there's an idea), etc... can be events. They are simply gatherings of geocachers that are centered around an activity. The most common activities that events are centered around happen to be eating and drinking, but does it have to be limited to those?

I agree they all sound like fun things to do, but must every fun thing net you a smiley? I can envision the first 3-4 pages of cache listings being titled:

  • Going to the Mets game sunday
  • Come worship at my church
  • meet me at the gym Weds Night
  • A day at the (horse) races
  • Anyone want to see what new McToy McDonald's has tonight?
  • I hate shopping! (but need new clothes... a day at the mall)
  • I hate Briansnat caches. Someone wanna walk me to them so I can get them off my list?
  • Carpool to work for a smiley!
  • Campmor is having a sale, meet you there at 7pm
  • Friday night and I'm bored, who wants to go find a cache?
  • Have an armed detective escort you to Central Park caches at night
  • Let's harrass Harrald at work!

Most of them sound like things I have or might do with other cachers. I'm sure we would discuss geocaching at some point during all of them. Should they all be listed on geocaching.com as caches? No way.

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I guess someone should inform our local approvers that they are approving cache events that violate the cache guidelines. B) In the last year I have participated in the following events whose primary purpose was to hike or paddle as a group to several caches:

And this weekend I will be attending The Dark Side Of The Arm: A Nocturnal Adventure.

 

Seems pretty ludicrous to me that cache events setup for the purpose of hunting caches would violate the cache guidelines. :rolleyes: To me, that is what a cache event is all about – not sitting on my butt in some bar or family restaurant shooting the breeze. In fact, the last such event I attended, there was more non-caching discussions and gossip about other cachers than actual caching-related discussion. Explain to me how that sort of event deserves a “find”. On the other hand, I suppose every time my caching buddies and I decide to get together for dinner or a couple drinks we should submit a cache event and count it as a “find” – as long as we don’t go caching afterward. B)

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Now to differ from Mopar, I do think that getting geocachers  together to play paintball, go horseback riding, camping, deep sea fishing (hmmmm there's an idea), etc... can be events.  They are simply  gatherings of geocachers that are centered around an activity.  The most common activities that events are centered around happen to be eating and drinking, but does it have to be limited to those?

I agree they all sound like fun things to do, but must every fun thing net you a smiley? I can envision the first 3-4 pages of cache listings being titled:

  • Going to the Mets game sunday
  • Come worship at my church
  • meet me at the gym Weds Night
  • A day at the (horse) races
  • Anyone want to see what new McToy McDonald's has tonight?
  • I hate shopping! (but need new clothes... a day at the mall)
  • I hate Briansnat caches. Someone wanna walk me to them so I can get them off my list?
  • Carpool to work for a smiley!
  • Campmor is having a sale, meet you there at 7pm
  • Friday night and I'm bored, who wants to go find a cache?
  • Have an armed detective escort you to Central Park caches at night
  • Let's harrass Harrald at work!

Most of them sound like things I have or might do with other cachers. I'm sure we would discuss geocaching at some point during all of them. Should they all be listed on geocaching.com as caches? No way.

You're taking it to extremes, but I think something like a ball game would would make excellent event cache. Does an event cache really have to be limited to a park picnic area, or a pub?

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Now to differ from Mopar, I do think that getting geocachers  together to play paintball, go horseback riding, camping, deep sea fishing (hmmmm there's an idea), etc... can be events.  They are simply  gatherings of geocachers that are centered around an activity.  The most common activities that events are centered around happen to be eating and drinking, but does it have to be limited to those?

I agree they all sound like fun things to do, but must every fun thing net you a smiley? I can envision the first 3-4 pages of cache listings being titled:


  •  
  • Going to the Mets game sunday
     
  • Come worship at my church
     
  • meet me at the gym Weds Night
     
  • A day at the (horse) races
     
  • Anyone want to see what new McToy McDonald's has tonight?
     
  • I hate shopping! (but need new clothes... a day at the mall)
     
  • I hate Briansnat caches. Someone wanna walk me to them so I can get them off my list?
     
  • Carpool to work for a smiley!
     
  • Campmor is having a sale, meet you there at 7pm
     
  • Friday night and I'm bored, who wants to go find a cache?
     
  • Have an armed detective escort you to Central Park caches at night
     
  • Let's harrass Harrald at work!
     

Most of them sound like things I have or might do with other cachers. I'm sure we would discuss geocaching at some point during all of them. Should they all be listed on geocaching.com as caches? No way.

You're taking it to extremes, but I think something like a ball game would would make excellent event cache. Does an event cache really have to be limited to a park picnic area, or a pub?

... and a Mets game would be just the kind of sadistic cache we've come to expect from Brian. I would rather walk through the thorns.

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You're taking it to extremes, but I think something like a ball game would would make excellent event cache. Does an event cache really have to be limited to a park picnic area, or a pub?

Of course I took it to extremes, that's the point. Someone will ALWAYS take something to extremes, eventually. Extremes like old sneakers, golf/tennis balls, and rotting dear carcasses lead to banning code word only caches and requiring log books.

Extremes like rocks, telephone poles and fire hydrants lead to an almost total ban on virtual caches.

Extremes like flags, paintball fields, mailboxes, odometer readings, fire trucks, and speeding tickets lead to a ban on locationless caches.

 

You can be sure that if enough people start submitting "lets go to a Yankees game and talk caching between innings" type caches, someone else is gonna see that and submit a "lets go see the new movie at the multiplex" event and the "group shopping event to buy geocaching gear at Campmor" event. Then before you know it there will be all sorts of event rules, like "only officially recognized organizations may submit an event".

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That original reviewer reply sounded a bit nitpicky to me. Not only that but contradictory, as they later state in that same reply that they will be hosting an event much the same as you had proposed.

 

I guess what's good for the goose isn't allowed for the gander. JMHO

 

Isn't polotics a wonderful thing?

Edited by Prairie Jeepin
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That original reviewer reply sounded a bit nitpicky to me. Not only that but contradictory, as they later state in that same reply that they will be hosting an event much the same as you had proposed.

 

I guess what's good for the goose isn't allowed for the gander. JMHO

 

Isn't polotics a wonderful thing?

The two events are not the same.

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In an attempt to be complient I have resubmitted the event with the following description.

 

Odds on whether it'll be approved?

OK, I read what you posted, it still reads as "getting together to go caching" which is against the guidelines for event caches, so I'm betting, that the reviewer still does his job and enforces the guidelines.

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That original reviewer reply sounded a bit nitpicky to me. Not only that but contradictory, as they later state in that same reply that they will be hosting an event much the same as you had proposed.

 

I guess what's good for the goose isn't allowed for the gander. JMHO

 

Isn't polotics a wonderful thing?

Sorry, but no. You misunderstood.

 

We are holding our 3rd Annual Challenge Event. We place around 36 temporary caches in a park where we have permission to do so. They are placed the day of the event and are removed that day after the event. We are cooking some food for those that come to the event. We have prizes for the event that are bought and donated. We have a committee that plans the event. The event last all day long.

 

You get one smiley.

 

You also get to spend the day with fellow cachers and you get to have fun. Last year we had someone from California, Alabama and Louisiana at our event. We didn't do it to rack up smileys. We did it for the fun of it.

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The admin who rejected the cache has noticed this thread, and has posted on my resubmitted event to heed the advised given here.

 

I'm still confused. I really believe I have complied with the guidelines. The purpose of the event isn't, and never was, to hunt caches, but to try and generate some exitement for geocaching in my neck of the woods. I worded it poorly the first time around.

 

It's great that some areas have really active clubs, but northern Virginia doesn't. I'm the only guy organizing events down here. Hopefully, if I keep it up we will get there eventually.

 

This event is a little different, but not that different. The uniqueness of the area makes this a unique expeiences, so much so that people that went last year asked me to set it up again. I think that is going a long way to starting something here.

 

The fact that an admin from some other part of the country, arrogantly (IMO), won't work with me to help me understand his interpretation of the guidelines, so that I can get the word out, is just wrong. I feel like I'm being helds hostigage at this point.

 

I'm willing to call the admin on my own nickel to discuss the matter. I know he's reading this so he is free to send me an e-mail with his number and best times to call on it.

 

I'm really frustrated.

Edited by JoeCthulhu
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The fact that an admin from some other part of the country, arrogantly (IMO), won't work with me to help me understand his interpretation of the guidelines, so that I can get the word out, is just wrong.  I feel like I'm being helds hostigage at this point..

I think your a little out of line making the assumption that because mtn-man doesn't live near DC he isn't familiar with the area or the caches. I've cached with mtn-man in 4 states, none of them within 500 miles of his home state of GA.

I've found his logs already in caches I've found in like 8 states, and I've never logged a cache anywhere near his neck of the woods.

I've done 2 of his caches, both of which are probably on your DC tour, btw.

I remember a discussion in IRC he had with one of my locals about a cache he reviewed up here. Mtn-man was able to accurately describe the area, and the little local landmarks and shops in the area.

 

Not agreeing with you is not the same as not working with you.

It sounds like he's trying to be very fair and reasonable and most certainly trying to work with you by pointing you right back to this thread for ways to get your event approved. There were several suggestions made here how to rework your event to make it fit the current event guidelines. Those guidelines seem pretty clear that just hiking around to a bunch of caches is not the type of thing that will be listed here. Did you actually read them this year, or just assume nothing has changed since the last time you did this and check the box on the cache submission?

Edited by Mopar
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The fact that an admin from some other part of the country, arrogantly (IMO), won't work with me to help me understand his interpretation of the guidelines, so that I can get the word out, is just wrong.  I feel like I'm being helds hostigage at this point..

I think your a little out of line making the assumption that because mtn-man doesn't live near DC he isn't familiar with the area or the caches. I've cached with mtn-man in 4 states, none of them within 500 miles of his home state of GA.

I've found his logs already in caches I've found in like 8 states, and I've never logged a cache anywhere near his neck of the woods.

I've done 2 of his caches, both of which are probably on your DC tour, btw.

I remember a discussion in IRC he had with one of my locals about a cache he reviewed up here. Mtn-man was able to accurately describe the area, and the little local landmarks and shops in the area.

 

Not agreeing with you is not the same as not working with you.

It sounds like he's trying to be very fair and reasonable and most certainly trying to work with you by pointing you right back to this thread for ways to get your event approved. There were several suggestions made here how to rework your event to make it fit the current event guidelines. Those guidelines seem pretty clear that just hiking around to a bunch of caches is not the type of thing that will be listed here. Did you actually read them this year, or just assume nothing has changed since the last time you did this and check the box on the cache submission?

There have been so many opinions expressed, I don't know which one is the right one.

 

My best guess is too set it up at a restauant/bar for later in the day, and state that some of us will be going for an extended hike earlier in the day.

 

If that's what I have to do, I wish he just asay so. If not I 'd wish he'd just tell me that too.

 

I don't know the admin, but he doesn't know me, and he made assuptions about me first. I'm willing to take it back if he is. I meant that comment to be that he didn't know might not know geocachers in this region, not the actual geography. My bad for being unclear. I could also be wrong about this point as well.

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I did try to work with you on this. In the email above I clearly told you what type of elements make up an event cache. You just won't read what I wrote to you, you won't read what people in this topic have written, nor will you read the guidelines.

In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

I quoted that guideline in the note when I archived your first submission and I quoted it again in the email that you quoted above. I even put it in bold when I quoted it in the archive note on the first submission. When the guideline was written I don't think they thought that people would be marching in single file from cache to cache and not speaking to each other. I think it is assumed that they would be talking along the way, and mostly about geoacaching. That is still against the guideline above.

 

When you entered your resubmission, you did not change the coordinates and you entered it almost immediately. That shows me that you are still meeting in the park where the first virtual cache is that is on your list. Your coordinates are exactly the same as the virtual cache. Is this virtual cache inside of a restaurant? The photo of the virtual cache does not seem to look like it is in or even near one.

 

99d61090-de74-4bb4-9a01-957def663e98.jpg

 

I know that part of town because I park on Virginia Avenue a lot. I also park down around 20th and 21st. You should probably weed through my finds to see how many I have in DC. The last couple of times I have been there I have not found any caches. I wanted to see the WWII memorial, and I also love to sit on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at night and lean against the huge pillars that hold up the facade. The view is stunning. This topic has reminded me that I need to get my DC web page up and running.

 

You are not organizing an event. All you are doing is creating a cache to get people to show up at a cache and then you are walking to other caches. That is specifically against the guidelines. That guideline has been quoted by me three times now.

 

If you want to start a group, there is information about how to do that here. I will be more than happy to help you with pointers on starting an organization. The Maryland organization right next to you is a good example.

 

I think it is interesting that rather than telling me on the new cache page or in email that you had started this topic, I instead had to "notice" it for myself. I will talk to you on the phone about this, but I have a busy day of work today. I also woke up to a failed hot water heater to boot. If you want to talk it would have to be later this evening or tomorrow.

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"In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of

drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches.

Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email

distribution list."

OK, NOW I am confused.

 

How does this NOT completely and utterly ban the idea of cache machines?

 

Does this mean if you stick a visit to a restaurant or pub into a cache machine, that's a factor that automatically transforms it into something approvable? And if you don't include a restaurant or pub in a cache machine, it ain't? What's the difference, really?

 

The "drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches" is what a cache machine is for, but they usually get approved.

 

That does not make sense.

SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. The condurum is driving me nuts! Thanks. :mad:

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Cache machines typically end at a Red Robin restaurant, where everyone gets together to talk about the day's adventures. There, they are often joined by the local geocachers who hid many of the caches that the group of visitors spent the day hunting down. One can attend this gathering and log a find on the event, regardless of whether they found zero caches or eighty caches during the day. THAT is the feature which makes the TravisL cache machines listable under the current guidelines.

 

I should also note that these same cache machines from the Pacific Northwest are directly responsible for another provision in the event cache listing guidelines, namely, only one event cache per event. You can't get cache pages and smilies for Friday night dinner, Saturday breakfast and Saturday dinner.

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Uneven approving can be frustrating for certain. When we got a new mod in our are he first denied a cache event I had submitted even though we had done several in the same vein and in the same manner. I was told our pizza events weren't geocaching related.

 

So I added the phrase "we'll discuss geocaching including geocaching techniques" and it was quickly approved.

 

At times I think some mods get a bit anal about these guidelines but if ya jump through a couple of hoops it works out.

 

SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. The condurum is driving me nuts! Thanks.

 

Can't :mad:

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Hmmmm. So if this Mtn-Man dude designs his cache event to end at a pub or something like that, like we often do here in Oregon, that makes it approvable?

 

That's interesting, because the Beaverton Cache Cachine started in a park with no eatery nearby, but I think ended at a local pub, so yeah, I can see how that would apply. Interesting...

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Does this mean if you stick a visit to a restaurant or pub into a cache machine, that's a factor that automatically transforms it into something approvable? And if you don't include a restaurant or pub in a cache machine, it ain't? What's the difference, really?

Basically, you have it right. The fact is right now if you word it right, you can claim almost anything is an "event cache" according to the guidelines. I think the whole intended spirit of an event cache was the BBQ or pub night type deal. Just a bunch of cachers getting together to socialize. I don't think the event page was ever intended to be a community bulletin board of upcoming activities that might interest geocachers. However, there is always a certain segment that goes to extremes, and will contend that anything that is not specifically disallowed must allowable. It's just a matter of time before we start seeing more of the extremes I mentioned back in this post, I've already seen some of them listed as events. The answer to that will be the same as with locationless, virtual, moving, and codeword caches; either a lot more guidelines to restrict them to what was intended all along, or a complete end to the cache type.

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I do understand the reasons behind the guidelines. If they allowed this type of event, then you know that some people would try to bend the rules and try to turn every geocache outing into an event to get that extra smiley. Therefore, events that are for the sole purpose of getting a group together to go caching do not qualify for an extra smiley.

 

What gets me though, is the apparent attitudes of the Admins. I'm sure it must be frustrating having to refer people to the guidelines all the time, but the responses needn't be so harsh. It doesn't seem to make much difference which Admin is responding either, so I'm not talking about any one in particular. I'm assuming they have a standard list of responses for various infractions. The messages always seem to say "you're an idiot, you should know better, shame on you." Well ok, not that exact phrase, but that's the way it comes across. Am I just being overly sensitive, or do others feel the same way?

 

*** strange feeling I'll never get another cache approved in my life! *** :mad:

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I am personally all for “Cut and Paste” style answers. I am aware they seem to be impersonal and a bit cold. But they also don’t allow people to claim they were insulted by some kind of innuendo.

 

As I’ve stated in the past “Cut and Paste” has worked on many of the web based forums, email lists and BBS’s I’ve been involved with. I also would rather see all the approvers/Mods share one account for modding and approving and keep the fact that they are who they are to themselves.

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I do understand the reasons behind the guidelines. If they allowed this type of event, then you know that some people would try to bend the rules and try to turn every geocache outing into an event to get that extra smiley. Therefore, events that are for the sole purpose of getting a group together to go caching do not qualify for an extra smiley.

 

What gets me though, is the apparent attitudes of the Admins. I'm sure it must be frustrating having to refer people to the guidelines all the time, but the responses needn't be so harsh. It doesn't seem to make much difference which Admin is responding either, so I'm not talking about any one in particular. I'm assuming they have a standard list of responses for various infractions. The messages always seem to say "you're an idiot, you should know better, shame on you." Well ok, not that exact phrase, but that's the way it comes across. Am I just being overly sensitive, or do others feel the same way?

 

*** strange feeling I'll never get another cache approved in my life! *** :mad:

It is perhaps easy to reach the conclusion you reached when only part of the story is quoted in the forums. This thread started with a quote of the volunteer reviewer's e-mail, which was in response to an e-mail from the cache owner not published, which in turn was reacting to the reviewer's archive note for the cache page. Let's rewind back to the beginning.

 

I am pasting the exact text of the reviewer's archive note below -- which, by the way, is quite similar to what I would have sent if the same cache had been submitted in Pennsylvania. Please look at it and tell us where he is "harsh" or says "you're an idiot." To the contrary, the message begins with "I'm sorry," continues with "I can understand that your intentions are good," and ends with "thanks for your understanding." The rest of the message quotes the applicable guidelines. From past experience, if we do NOT quote the guidelines which are violated, then we often receive an e-mail saying "tell me exactly what rule it is that you're talking about." When we quote the guideline, we often receive responses saying "sorry, I did not know about that."

 

I'm sorry, but this cache cannot be approved.  I can understand that your intentions are good, but it would not be allowed based on the guidelines.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#event

 

'Event Caches'

 

'Event caches are gatherings for geocachers by geocachers to discuss geocaching.  After the event has passed, the event cache is archived.  While a music concert, a garage sale, a ham radio field day or an orienteering event might be of interest to a large percentage of geocachers, such events are not suitable for submission as event caches because the primary focus of these events is not geocaching and the primary attendees are not geocachers.  In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches.  Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.'

 

'For geocaching events that involve several components, such as a day-long group cache hunt that also involves a seminar and dinner, only a single event cache covering all components should be submitted.'

 

NOTE: If you have any questions, do not reply to the archive note email.  Click on the link to go to the cache page and click on my name in the archive log at the bottom of the page.  You can then send me an email regarding the cache.  Please send me a link to the cache in question so I will know which cache it is regarding.

 

Thanks for your understanding,

 

mtn-man

Geocaching.com ADMIN

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mtn-man,

 

I’m sorry.

 

I’m hoping that my going public, hasn’t ruined my chances of every getting this event approved. Sometime it’s hard to remember that you all are volunteers, and that this often is a thankless task. I’m certain that you have only the best intentions in mind.

 

I think we have both ascribed to one another motives improperly during this process, me especially. Based upon something you wrote, I’m guessing you’ve taken a look at my history at geocaching.com. If you have you see that I’ve organized 4 previous events that have all been fairly well received.

 

As someone suggested, I hadn’t reviewed the guideline for a while prior to my initial submittal of the event cache. That was a failure on my part.

 

When you responded to my initial e-mail, I did notice the bolded text. After reading several times, I’m still was unsure of the meaning. I e-mailed you. You responded. I still wasn’t certain, however, I resubmitted in accordance with what I thought at the time was a proper interpretation of the guidelines. After much further discussion, I still believe that the resubmitted event cache is in accordance with the guidelines.

 

This event is a gathering of geocachers by geocaher to discuss geocaching. No where does the guideines state that the event has to be at one static location.

 

This cache isn’t set up for the sole purpose of drawing cachers together for an organized hunt of caches. I know you may be having a difficult time believing this, based upon my initial submittal, but it is true. I wrote it up inappropriately the first time based upon my ignorance and because I thought it would entice cachers to attending. However, I expect many of the cachers who would be attending would have already logged all the caches along the route in question. As you are aware, the vast majority of virtual caches in DC are right on the street. If someone wants to stop and log a couple I don’t want to prevent them. Anyway, the guidelines do not say that you can’t hunt caches, only that it can’t be the sole purpose. I believe I’ve met that standard.

 

I look forward to speaking to you. Expect me to be polite.

 

Best Regards,

 

Scott aka JoeCthulhu

Edited by JoeCthulhu
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Just have the party - if anyone's only coming to score the find, who needs 'em. :mad:

 

If they won't let you list an event cache on gc.com and you'd like to have a cachers get together. Just have it.

 

I've gotten together with groups of cachers and talked geocaching, geocachers, cache pirates, cache contents, cache containers, etc.... and it wasn't listed as a formal event. If I was in the area - I'd try to show up (event cache or not!). :lol:

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mtn-man,

 

I’m sorry.

 

I’m hoping that my going public, hasn’t ruined my chances of every getting this event approved.

I don't care what you call me. I don't care if you cuss me out to my face or in the forums.

 

If you post a cache that goes within the guidelines I am always happy to post it.

 

I don't interject my personal feelings into this. I don't look at cache review in relation to the submitter specifically, but rather more about the geocachers that will be finding your cache. We try to find ways to make a cache work so it will be available for other cachers to find. I want smileys just like anyone else. The more caches we can list the better. I have had disagreements with people in the past and I am happy to move on and become friends. It has happened and there are few that I have problems with. Most of the time it is because they just hate me. So be it. I am an easy going guy, but if I don't follow the guidelines I will be removed. As anyone who knows me. If there is a way to get the cache approved I will try to make that happen.

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Help! Help!

My brain is doing the 2000 HAL "my mind is going" thing, trying to deal with these wierd contradictions!

 

Quoting from the approver's letter:

 

"Event caches are gatherings for geocachers by geocachers to discuss

geocaching..." conf.gif

 

"They are not there to walk miles to find caches, they are at the event to

sit and relax and chat. ( :mad: )

 

Some may go out afterward to find caches, but the primary purpose of the event should not be to find caches...

 

But to "find caches" is the primary purpose of a cache machine to start with. It's not "let's go to this pub and maybe find some caches afterwards"

It's "Let's do a raving mad dash to find LOTS of caches, and oh yeah, join us at this eating place afterwards if you wish."

 

" an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches." :lol:

 

So basically, that's more than one paragraph that really does ban the idea of cache machines when you get right to it.

That's because the PRIMARY purpose of a cache machine is not to relax and chat, but accomplish a "it's a mad mad mad mad mad world! " cache hunt. They violate the stated rules, but are approved anyway.

 

Any pub meet can be tagged at the end of a cache machine. But the pub meet is not the "Primary Purpose" for a cache machine to start with. Which means the next statement contradicts it all:

 

"The goal of the event cache is not to find caches. The goal of the event cache is to relax and meet other cachers and socialize or educate."

 

So are we simply putting in a regulation of tagging a pub or a restaurant meet at the beginning or end of a cache machine and just kinda ignoring the point of a cache machine to start with?

 

I don't get it. How do the stated guidelines explain this in a clear way?

 

It's either clarify these guidelines better or... "Stop. Stop Dave. Daisy... daisy..." etc.

Edited by Sparrowhawk
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Help! Help!

My brain is doing the 2000 HAL "my mind is going" thing, trying to deal with these wierd contradictions!

 

Quoting from the approver's letter:

 

"Event caches are gatherings for geocachers by geocachers to discuss

geocaching..." conf.gif

 

"They are not there to walk miles to find caches, they are at the event to

sit and relax and chat. ( :mad: )

 

Some may go out afterward to find caches, but the primary purpose of the event should not be to find caches...

 

But to "find caches" is the primary purpose of a cache machine to start with. It's not "let's go to this pub and maybe find some caches afterwards"

It's "Let's do a raving mad dash to find LOTS of caches, and oh yeah, join us at this eating place afterwards if you wish."

 

" an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches." :lol:

 

So basically, that's more than one paragraph that really does ban the idea of cache machines when you get right to it.

That's because the PRIMARY purpose of a cache machine is not to relax and chat, but accomplish a "it's a mad mad mad mad mad world! " cache hunt. They violate the stated rules, but are approved anyway.

 

Any pub meet can be tagged at the end of a cache machine. But the pub meet is not the "Primary Purpose" for a cache machine to start with. Which means the next statement contradicts it all:

 

"The goal of the event cache is not to find caches. The goal of the event cache is to relax and meet other cachers and socialize or educate."

 

So are we simply putting in a regulation of tagging a pub or a restaurant meet at the beginning or end of a cache machine and just kinda ignoring the point of a cache machine to start with?

 

I don't get it. How do the stated guidelines explain this in a clear way?

 

It's either clarify these guidelines better or... "Stop. Stop Dave. Daisy... daisy..." etc.

I understand your confusion. I didn't realize cache machines were allowed as events and I would think they wouldn't be under the guidelines.

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It is perhaps easy to reach the conclusion you reached when only part of the story is quoted in the forums.

I realize that there is more to the story than what was posted in the forums, it just reminded me of some dealings that I've had or heard of with the Admins in our area. I think Mtn-Man's original post was quite acceptable. I just wish they were all that courteous.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say comments I received were rude, but it always seems like they wrote the message when they were having a really bad day. Either that, or that they were annoyed at having to explain the rules to yet ANOTHER geocacher. Perhaps its just our region, or perhaps I really do have a knack for picking bad days to post caches.

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I don't know the admin, but he doesn't know me, ....

Just thought this was interesting as I read the saga because I was pretty sure you had actually met at this event before. Maybe I'm wrong though???

 

Sounds like everyone is on the same side, but the words are getting in the way.

 

Have fun on the annual tour!!!

Edited by bigcall
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I did not read all the posts, but my opinion is this is a legitimate gathering of geocachers for the purposes on only visiting VIRTUAL Cache sites. Since the site is a legal public spot and the virtual cache inclusion is an exception to the rule. If these were traditional caches, I'd say there may be a problem since there could be damage to the environment with a group of people tramping in the woods for example. The key here is VIRTUAL, PUBLIC and NO ISSUE with regard to discovery / disclosure. They are mostly puzzles anyways.

 

Thanks for last year's invite< i did enjoy it.

 

Tim

Edited by Tim M CPA
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That original reviewer reply sounded a bit nitpicky to me. Not only that but contradictory, as they later state in that same reply that they will be hosting an event much the same as you had proposed.

 

I guess what's good for the goose isn't allowed for the gander. JMHO

 

Isn't polotics a wonderful thing?

The two events are not the same.

Oops!

 

After re-reading the thing, I guess I took the Challenge event wrong and made a mistake of thinking it was much the same as the Original Poster's idea of a group of folks seeking caches together.

 

Apologies, carry on :huh:

 

(I still think it's nitpicky :lol:)

Edited by Prairie Jeepin
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(I still think it's nitpicky :huh:)

Nitpicky or not, the reviewers still have a job to do. If they approved caches that didn't meet the guidelines, people would be in here bitching at them FOR approving them. Now, they're getting it for NOT approving one. Makes me glad I'm not a reviewer.

 

For the original poster, change the event to be "We're meeting at Don's Restaurant for breakfast and geocaching discussion. After the event is over, several of us are going to take a walk around the area, passing by several caches. Anyone is welcome to come along, and if you haven't found them yet, take the time to find the caches along the way."

 

I'm betting it'll be approved, because THE EVENT is breakfast/geocaching discussion, and the virtual tour is optional afterward.

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