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Only In New Jersey?


Gob-ler

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My son in law and I were out doing a cache along a bike path and I happened to look up and commented to him "we have company". A police officer was walking towards us and at the same time I heard a vehicle approaching from the other direction. Here comes not one but two police cruisers.

 

We are surrounded by three officers wanting to know what we were doing. We started to explain and they said they had never heard of such a thing. They asked us to stand over by a tree and proceeded to run our drivers licenses through the computer. More questions about this geocaching thing and then the goody.

 

Seems one of the bike riders called 911 to report suspicious activity. My son in law's father is from India and the caller reported a white guy and an Arab man with electronic equipment doing surveilence (sic) in the park.

 

We got them all calmed down and they actually were laughing about it.

 

Welcome to New Jersey!

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My son in law and I were out doing a cache along a bike path and I happened to look up and commented to him "we have company". A police officer was walking towards us and at the same time I heard a vehicle approaching from the other direction. Here comes not one but two police cruisers.

 

We are surrounded by three officers wanting to know what we were doing. We started to explain and they said they had never heard of such a thing. They asked us to stand over by a tree and proceeded to run our drivers licenses through the computer. More questions about this geocaching thing and then the goody.

 

Seems one of the bike riders called 911 to report suspicious activity. My son in law's father is from India and the caller reported a white guy and an Arab man with electronic equipment doing surveilence (sic) in the park.

 

We got them all calmed down and they actually were laughing about it.

 

Welcome to New Jersey!

I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving. I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

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Alas, not only in New Jersey these days - I can see this happening anywhere within the purview of homeland security. It's one of the reasons it's NOT wise to hide or seek a cache in what could be perceived as sensitive locations (e.g. near bridges, tunnels, schools, government buildings or installations). (I'm not suggesting you were doing that).

 

My advice is to do exactly what you did - cooperate to resolve the misunderstanding. Although you may have the right to refuse to produce identification documents (not sure if that's true), you also may spend a night in jail and end up with attorney's fees and an arrest record to prove the point. As offensive as this experience may be to some of us, the police are trying to protect the public and no purpose is served by needlessly hassling them (i.e. pick your battles).

 

I printed some business cards with the geocaching logo and the website URL and have found them to be surprisingly useful for educating law enforcement (and other) muggles - just seeing something professional looking with a logo seems to add instant credibility to your explanation, and it gives them the website so they can join the game (which a couple said they wanted to do after talking to me about it)!

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving.  I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

I recall a recent supreme court ruling that said you must provide identification to the police when asked. I forget if it was the NJ supreme court or the US SC though.

Edited by briansnat
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While out Geocaching, my brother and I were talking about homeland security. At the time we were on private land that is maintained by the state game commission. My brother was convinecd that it was actually Department of Homeland Security (DHS) territory and that there'd be swat teams everywhere in a matter of minutes.

 

Anyway, he told me of a story of a young man of arab descent taking pictures of a canal in some large city for a college architecture report. I guess he was spotted taking the pictures, and he went to have his pictures developed. It took forever to get the call that they were finished developing. It turns out the photo shop, that several heavily armed DHS agents "delivered" his freshly developed pictures to him...

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving.  I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

I recall a recent supreme court ruling that said you must provide identification to the police when asked. I forget if it was the NJ supreme court or the US SC though.

You are correct by my understanding - tho I don't recall a 'ruling' - I thouht you always had to have some kind of ID or you were considered a vagrant.

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving. I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

As a duly sworn law enforcement officer, I have to break it to you.... if I ask you for ID, you will need to produce it for me. If you can not or will not provide ID, I can consider you to be impeding my investigation and will take you to jail where you will be booked and through the use of fingerprints and other methods, we will attempt to ID you.

 

Trust me, I'm not out to violate anyones' civil rights, but you do have to provide identification should I request it during a lawful investigation. Typcially this ID will be government issued i.e. driver's license or state issued ID card.

 

Happy geocaching!

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I'm glad someone felt the need to call in suspicious activity. The fact that it was "a white guy and an Arab man" probably wasn't necessary other then to describe the individuals. It's sometimes hard not to look suspicious while geocaching, depending on the cache.

 

At least the police took it seriously and, as I feel they should, responded and questioned you. I'd rather hear a story like this then feel individuals were turning the other cheek if they felt something suspicious was occurring.

 

So, thankfully in NJ, an individual and the authorities took the time to make sure nothing improper was occurring

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving. I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

As a duly sworn law enforcement officer, I have to break it to you.... if I ask you for ID, you will need to produce it for me. If you can not or will not provide ID, I can consider you to be impeding my investigation and will take you to jail where you will be booked and through the use of fingerprints and other methods, we will attempt to ID you.

 

Trust me, I'm not out to violate anyones' civil rights, but you do have to provide identification should I request it during a lawful investigation. Typcially this ID will be government issued i.e. driver's license or state issued ID card.

 

Happy geocaching!

ah...

 

isn't that what I said?

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And if you possess no ID? You automatically are assumed as guilty and a lose all of your rights?

 

That's BS. What if I don't drive and don't have any state or federal issued ID. Am I a criminal?

 

You can see my license all day long when I am driving, but if I am hiking or looking for a distant cache, chances are I am not carrying ID.

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And if you possess no ID? You automatically are assumed as guilty and a lose all of your rights?

 

That's BS. What if I don't drive and don't have any state or federal issued ID. Am I a criminal?

 

You can see my license all day long when I am driving, but if I am hiking or looking for a distant cache, chances are I am not carrying ID.

then you better hope you don't have an accident out there. it might take a while to identify you.

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As a duly sworn law enforcement officer, I have to break it to you.... if I ask you for ID, you will need to produce it for me. If you can not or will not provide ID, I can consider you to be impeding my investigation and will take you to jail where you will be booked and through the use of fingerprints and other methods, we will attempt to ID you.

I presume you're basing this on the SCOTUS 5-4 ruling in the case of Hiibel, but your statement appears to go well beyond the authority granted in that ruling.

 

A summary of Hiibel is provided at

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/24/dorf.police.id/

and includes this synopsis:

"The limited issue resolved in Hiibel

 

The issue in Hiibel was whether someone who had been lawfully subject to a Terry stop -- that is, someone as to whom the police did have reasonable suspicion -- can also be required to provide his name to the police officer who stopped him.

 

The justices answered yes. But they divided 5-4 on the issue.

 

**All nine justices agreed that a person who is not behaving in a way that gives rise to an articulable suspicion of criminality may not be required to state his name or show identification.**

 

All nine justices also agreed that under the Court's prior precedents, the police could ask a person who has been subject to a Terry stop for his name.

 

The only disagreement that split the justices -- and the specific issue the case addressed -- was whether the person could be prosecuted for failing to answer that question."

 

So if you have no reasonable and articulable suspicion that I have been engaged in criminal activity you don't have the right to demand that I either state my name or produce identification (you can ask, but I can legitimately refuse). Even in the case of such reasonable suspicion, the Hiibel case only requires that I verbally identify myself, not that I provide identification papers.

 

Taking the person to jail would require an arrest in which case the stricter standard of probable cause applies.

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So if you have no reasonable and articulable suspicion that I have been engaged in criminal activity you don't have the right to demand that I either state my name or produce identification (you can ask, but I can legitimately refuse). Even in the case of such reasonable suspicion, the Hiibel case only requires that I verbally identify myself, not that I provide identification papers

 

That's the case I was referring to in my earlier post and I stand corrected. I said tiy had to provide ID, but as you mentioned here, I was wrong.

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving.  I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

I recall a recent supreme court ruling that said you must provide identification to the police when asked. I forget if it was the NJ supreme court or the US SC though.

I believe that it was a US Supreme Court decision, but I need to double check that. I remember reading it, but don't remember the source. I suspect US Supreme Court though since that is the type of thing I would take notice of and remember. Of course keep in mind that (I think) it did not say that there was some law that people must produce an ID. Instead it meant that the person was asked and refused to produce the ID and found to being doing something wrong. So it was not a contsitutional defense of sorts to say that they were wrongly asked for the ID and hence should not be convicted because their rights were violated. If you refuse to produce ID and have not committed a crime, well you might encounter more difficulties, but that is not likely a crime in and of itself. I need to double check my memory though. I suppose it is possible that there was some local criminal law requiring ID, which would change things. I don't remember it that way though. Anyway, my advice is to explain and all will work itself out.

 

Edit: Peter seemed to describe it as I remember, but I haven't re-read the opinion.

Edited by carleenp
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Taking this from just my memory I remember it to be a case where an officer was in the middle of an investigastion and come upon two people. One person was sitting in a truck and the other was outside the truck. They were just talking. The officer asked the person outside the truck for his name and he refused. He was arrested and charged.

 

IIRC, the end ruling boils down to if you are driving a vehicle you must produce a driver's license when requested from an officer. The officer has to have no reason, i.e. standard license check.

 

However, if an officer is in an investigation and has a reason to ask you to identify yourself you have to give him your name. Presenting an ID is not required. That's the sticking point, the request has to be within the framework of an investigation. He can't require you to produce your name without any justification.

 

There are exceptions to this. There are times where you are subject to physical search without cause--just being there gives consent.

 

With all that said the OP did pretty much the right thing. If the questioning had gone on for more than a few minutes, then I'd probably start asserting myself. But as it is it appears to be a simple routine "what's going on" type of thing. Nothing wrong in that.

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I was looking for a rural cache in an area with lots of fossils. It's a hike up a wooded hill, above a water tank. Turns out the only "real" parking was right in front of the water tank, and I left my wife and napping daughter in the car while I walked about 200' up the street to what I suspected (correctly) to be a path leading to the cache area.

 

I located the cache pretty quickly (filled with fossilized shark teeth), and as I was pretty far up the hill, I could see my car. And a police car. And hear a loud police radio. Went quickly back the way I came, and pop out of the woods to meet the local law. Seems it looks very suspicious for someone to park at the water tower... and it seems my wife looks like she "could" be a terrorist! (she's from India) She had explained that I was up there geocaching, and she was waiting with the Tadpole. My matching story and a look at the GPS screen showing my path hopefully convinced him that a terrorist wouldn't be dumb enough to park right in front of the water tower with his wife and child if he were up to no good. He told me "there's one down the highway from here too, because I've caught people there before, and they said the same thing!" My tag check was taking forever due to a drowning at a local lake, and he let us go on our way. I didn't feel offended at all to produce my license, and I even gave him my cell #, "just in case I had to come back for him to arrest me." ;)

 

Personally, I don't have any problem with it -- especially since i was doing nothing wrong. So why make the police's job harder than it has to be? You don't have to be a jerk -- but they DO have to keep us safe. I'll do my part to help.

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However, if an officer is in an investigation and has a reason to ask you to identify yourself you have to give him your name.  Presenting an ID is not required.  That's the sticking point, the request has to be within the framework of an investigation.  He can't require you to produce your name without any justification.

I think that's accurate, with one caveat--you're required to identify yourself if the state has a so-called "stop-and-identify" statute. In other words, the Supreme Court said that a state may, within the bounds of the Constitution, pass a law making it a crime to refuse to identify yourself in the context of an investigation based upon reasonable suspicion that a person may be involved in criminal activity (i.e. Terry stop).

 

The case in question, for anyone who's interested, is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court of Nev.,Humboldt Cty. And if you're really interested, you can actually download video of the arrest from this site, among others. I've watched the video, and I think it's fair to say that it probably doesn't represent the proudest moment in life for any of the participants. ;)

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I presume you're basing this on the SCOTUS 5-4 ruling in the case of Hiibel, but your statement appears to go well beyond the authority granted in that ruling.

 

To keep this geocaching related.... if I were to receive a call of 'suspicious' persons (who were geocachers). I would ask for ID. 99% of the time these persons would produce a govt ID i.e. DL, state ID, etc. The other 1% of the time the person would have no ID with them and they could give me their name. I didn't exactly post what I was thinking last night as I was a bit tired. You are correct I can't make anyone give me a physical ID card/paper but I can make you give me a name. If you refuse to give me a name that I can verify matches your description through the use of local, county, state & federal files I will arrest you and take you to jail. Once at jail, you will be fingerprinted. You won't get to leave jail until you can be positively indentified. In 14 years of law enforcement I have only encountered one person that refused to give a govt issued ID or their name.

 

Anyways... happy geocaching :P and remember the police are your friends ;) and a lot of us are very active geocachers ;) Cheers!

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I am 15 but look like I am 12....at my local college there are a few caches so I went (on a saturday in the summer) no one is around and a cop pulls up, hand on his gun and asks what Im doing...I exlpain geocaching to him and show him the cache paper and he says "alright....but girls get scared when guys are in the bushes"......remember its a saturday in the summer no one is around and i look like im 12......funny

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What about you? how do we know you're a real deputy? You could very well be one of the Village People! If we ask really nice, will you do that "YMCA" dance, too?

 

Argh!!!! I'm being ridiculed in public by someone that has actually done a 'ride along' with me :rolleyes: Besides.... you have seen me do the YMCA dance... and dang it... I look sexy when I do it B)

 

Hmmmm.... it may be time to go frog gigging B)

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This is an interesting post as I did several caches the other day along the Columbia River near dams. One of the caches was in a ammo box that had ordinance written on it and other millitary writting. Seems like an invitation for trouble if a non geocacher should find it. I kept looking over my shoulder waiting for the sirens to go off. I read about a local cache that was found by a muggle and thought to be a bomb and was blown up by the bomb squad, so the present day situation requires some thought when we geocache. I've been amazed that I've gone this long without being stopped by an officer. Crawling around in the bushes just isn't a normal thing, so I'm sure it's coming. :rolleyes: I'll cooperate with whatever is required and not be a trouble maker, so hopefully they won't haul me away. With the difficult job they do I'm glad to see they are out there protecting us.

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Something like this could happen anywhere.

 

As far as I can recall from my pre law classes the Supreme Court ruled in Brown v. Texas that "The application of the Texas statute to detain appellant and require him to identify himself violated the Fourth Amendment because the officers lacked any reasonable suspicion to believe that appellant was engaged or had engaged in criminal conduct."

 

Link: http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/folioc...historic/query=[group+443+u!2Es!2E+47!3A]!28[group+syllabus!3A]!7C[level+case+citation!3A]!29/doc/{@1}/hit_headings/words=4/hits_only?

 

BUT in most states and counties the law is different; Federal law as you may know doesn't always apply locally. So while you may be within your federal consitutional right in refusing to produce an ID card you're still in violation of local law. However you can still appeal your case after a long appeals process from one court to another and eventually take it up up to the Supreme Court. It will probably rule in your favor based on Brown v. Texas. But, you may never know, especially in the post 9/11 world we live in today.

 

 

Keep in mind that cooperating with the local police is for your own good. Staying calm and being polite and friendly will diffuse the situation. There's no reason why you shouldn't expect the officer to be professional and curtious as well. But, at the same time know your rights and know when to stand up for youself when it's legitimate to do so.

Edited by Blue Contrails
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I had a police officer stop me while I was caching in Omaha a couple of years ago. After explaining what I was doing he gave me a knowing smile and advised me that he knew where the cache was, but had been sworn to secrecy. (I assume that since this cache was in a sensative area the cacher had notified the police to avoid future problems) Anyway after we got done talking the police officer ran interference for me so I could find the cache without being hastled by a group of youths.

 

:mad:

 

I much prefer the common sense cooperative approach then a night in jail or a wood shampoo.

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I have to agree that cooperating with the police is a good thing. As long as what you are doing is legal, you have nothing to lose but a few minutes of your time. If what you are doing is illegal, feel free to argue and fight with the officer. Makes the justification for arrest that much clearer.

 

Now, that said, my brother is a cop in Albuquerque, and he gave me this advice. If you happen to get a cop with a badge bigger than his head, or one with an attitude (LE doesn't get attitudes :mad: ), ask politely "Am I free to go?" If they start giving you the lines of "why do you want to leave, we're just talking" or "Don't you want to talk to me" or some such, ask again. If they say no, or continue stalling, you then just:

 

SHUT UP and LAWYER UP!

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BUT in most states and counties the law is different; Federal law as you may know doesn't always apply locally.

A point of clarification: A fundamental tenet of our Federalist system of government is that Federal laws alway apply anywhere in the United States. Local laws may be stricter than Federal law (if permitted by the Federal Law), but local (or State) laws cannot preempt (contradict) Federal Law or the US Constitution.

 

If you meant "case law" (court decisions), you're right in some cases because Federal court rulings only apply in the jurisdiction (e.g. Federal judicial district or circuit) in which they were made. However, if the decision was made by the US Supreme Court, it again always prevails over State and local laws and court decisions because the Supreme Court's jurisdiction is the entire country.

 

That said, I agree with your conclusion: you may have the right, but it could cost you thousands of dollars and many hours to prove it! Best to go along to get along, unless the police officer is acting illegally and in a way that acutally harms you in some way (I don't see how showing ID harms you). Then moopgroop's brother's advice is exactly right: leave if you can, or SHUT UP and LAWYER UP!

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If you mix a couple of these posts together you'd get something similar to what happened to me at my own cache.

 

I was performing maintinence on my cache at a local community college on a saturday when a police car jumped the curb from the parking lot and proceeded to drive over 50 yards worth of grass towards me. He stopped me and told me that nobody was allowed to wander campus on a saturday and that he thought I looked suspicious (walking on the sidewalk with my backpack walking towards the parking lot) and that he needed my ID. I asked him why nobody was allowed to be on campus when a class had just let out 30 minutes before (at noon)? He replied that If I was going to be a smart@#$ that he was going to arrest me and let somebody else deal with me 'at the station'

 

Luckily I was directly in front of the building for the criminal justice program and that the chief of the campus police happened to be one of my profs AND had signed letters of recommendation for me for law school. I told him we could go see the chief right then and settle things since I knew he would be in his office inside the building. He let me go after that.

 

Of course had I not known his boss I wouldve have yes sirred and no sirred just like everyone else should do. It's just that annoying egotistical narcissitic attitude that some cops get when they are on their power-trip, so so.....argh! It felt good to put him in his place (since it'll probably never happen again). That day I archived the cache and havent been back since.

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving.  I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

I recall a recent supreme court ruling that said you must provide identification to the police when asked. I forget if it was the NJ supreme court or the US SC though.

You are correct by my understanding - tho I don't recall a 'ruling' - I thouht you always had to have some kind of ID or you were considered a vagrant.

In Texas, that rule only applies when there is probable cause or suspicious behavor. If someone is walking down the road, but there is nothing suspicious, a police officer can ask but the person is not required to produce ID.

However, if that same person is walking down the street not doing anything suspicious, but he/she matches the description of someone recently involved in a criminal matter, then they need to produce ID and the cop needs to explain why.

It all comes down to how the incident is reported.

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In Texas, that rule only applies when there is probable cause or suspicious behavor.  If someone is walking down the road, but there is nothing suspicious, a police officer can ask but the person is not required to produce ID.

Alas, between 9/11 and most Americans' aversion to exercise, just walking down the road is suspicious these days. :huh:

 

It all comes down to how the incident is reported.

Exactly!

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I suppose that this is easy for me to say safe in my little computer chair but I'm pretty sure you don't have to produce a driver's licence unless you are actually driving. I beleive that you are required to verbally identify yourself to a police officer but in America we do not have to carry "identity papers". Yet.

 

As a duly sworn law enforcement officer, I have to break it to you.... if I ask you for ID, you will need to produce it for me. If you can not or will not provide ID, I can consider you to be impeding my investigation and will take you to jail where you will be booked and through the use of fingerprints and other methods, we will attempt to ID you.

 

Trust me, I'm not out to violate anyones' civil rights, but you do have to provide identification should I request it during a lawful investigation. Typcially this ID will be government issued i.e. driver's license or state issued ID card.

 

Happy geocaching!

As a citizen, when I ask for your ID, are you required to present it?

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As a citizen, when I ask for your ID, are you required to present it?

"I'll show you mine if you show me yours?"

 

Back to the issue of ID, why would anyone have to show ID if it is not going to identify criminal activity? Is it just to run a search for warrants? That would seem to me as contrary to a Terry stop.

 

First off, of all of the times we've had LE come across and ask us what we were doing we have never been asked for ID. ID doesn't have anything to do actions. I would seem as though once a person's action is confirmed to be suspicious by not having a good explaination of what they are doing, then an ID might be an appropriate thing to ask for. I don't know, though. I'm not in law enforcement.

 

Face it, what we do can at many times look funny. Remote, seldom-visited places. Folks walking off into the woods nowhere near the common focal point of the area. Snooping around and looking like a Star Trek away team. I'd be suspicious, too. But even the meanest-looking, hick, back-water, sloppily dressed officer, that looked like someone peed in his Wheaties, didn't ask us for ID. He glared at us a little as he absorbed our stories. He then just said to enjoy ourselves and drove off.

 

We did have our plates run once. We were parked in a remote area. An unmarked drove slowly past and returned. He initiated a friendly conversation asking us if we were alright "being so far from home." That told us he ran our plates as we were a few hours from home. He went on to explain that they had been looking for a car thief. Makes sense running our plates with a minivan in a place that you don't typically see a minivan and knowing a car thief is in the area.

 

Never in the many times we've talked to LE have we ever had a negative experience.

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