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This Is A "found It", Right?


Lean Wolf

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I went for this cache that hasn't been found for a year. No problem finding the place, the hint makes it impossible to miss, the microcache magnet is still there, you can see glue on it that didn't last a lifetime outdoors. Apparently the owner has grown tired of this game and doesn't really care if other people waste time on his non-existing cache.

 

Now, I wrote my signature and a date on the roadsign pole just beside the magnet with a pencil. The cache is not disabled, there is no doubt it is the right place, I used my imagination and logged the way I seemed fit... I'm very much inclined to log this as a "Found it", and I don't think the owner will ever have any objections. On the other hand I'm quite sure those who found the magnet and didn't log a find would find it unfair.

 

What do you think?

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No actual cache and no log book=no find to me. Making a log out of the sign doesn't somehow convert a missing cache into an active one, and the signature is likely not permanent if in pencil, and if it would be permanent then it could be vandalism. :o

 

I say log a DNF and a should be archived note. That way perhaps the cache can be archived or disabled so that others will not go search for it.

 

Edit: I also like YuccaPatrol's suggestion

Edited by carleenp
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How about going back, replacing the missing cache with a new container and log book and signing that? You'd be doing a good thing and would leave a cache to find and a log to sign . .

You should contact the owner first. Check their profile, see if they have logged on to the site lately. Its hard to replace a cache in the way it was intended, if you didn't place it in the first place. Email the owner first, wait for a reply. You can always alert the local approver at some point in the future. There are caches that have simply not been found for a year because they haven't been hunted. Unless the owner hasn't logged on in a year, there is no reason to think he has abandoned the cache.

 

edit: Again, imho. :o And, definitely log a DNF and what you found, as carleenp stated.

Edited by Crouching Hiker, Hidden Cache
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Hey, I'm thrilled to see you're all so serious about it.

 

I wouldn't log it of course, though it's tempting. I will however replace it, this was my intention to from the beginning. It's such a simple thing to do, so I might as well put the small effort into it, not to let the cache go to waste. It could last a long time, properly done.

 

Since the owner hasn't checked the cache listing for a long time and probably won't do it in the near future he couldn't have any opinion about me fixing the cache. Now, this is the true GC crime, letting (serious) people waste time and search in vain.

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You should first have the cache archived (meaning that the original hider is contacted by GC approver staff) and then adopt it and revive it, if you intend to reform the cache.

 

The reason I say this is if you are only interested in replacing the container as it is now, then the next time it goes missing for whatever reason, we'll be back in the same situation with a different person. If you intend on maintaining the cache that you refurbish there, then it'd be best if you officially had your name attached to the page and had owner emails going to you (than the absent original hider).

 

So, work with your approver (or 9Key directly) and get it archived/adopted into your name and rehabilitated. Or have it archived if you don't plan on maintaining the replacement cache.

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Well now. Per tournament rules. No log no find no exceptions.

 

However in normal and casual rules if you found the container or part of it and it's blatantly obviouse it's gone I'm going to go with find on this one.

 

Email the owner. If no answer do a Should be Archived log on it, and be ready to pull the remnant. Then while you are out there erase your name from the public property as that's not good practice.

 

Or...Replace the container with better glue and offer to adopte the cache. But still erase your name.

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How about going back, replacing the missing cache with a new container and log book and signing that? You'd be doing a good thing and would leave a cache to find and a log to sign . .

We have cachers in Arizona that do just that.. "I couldnt find the container, so I placed one. Thanks for the find"..

 

I wish I could express how lame this is in my opinion. Then again, people will do what they want most of the time. So if you go hide 200 micro's, you can then claim a find on all 200 of them and really increase your numbers.

 

Personally, We post to the page, then we send a note to the owner, wait a couple of weeks. If we have heard nothing, we recommend archival of the cache.

 

If you replace it, are you not volunteering to take care and maintain it? Then does it not at that moment become your cache? Your claiming finds on your own hides?

 

Enjoy the day...

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We have cachers in Arizona that do just that.. "I couldnt find the container, so I placed one. Thanks for the find"..

 

I wish I could express how lame this is in my opinion. Then again, people will do what they want most of the time. So if you go hide 200 micro's, you can then claim a find on all 200 of them and really increase your numbers.

 

There aslo have been many cases where someone did this because they were "certain" the cache was gone, but it wasn't, making 2 caches at the site. I recall reading about one instance where there were 3-4 caches at the same site thanks to this practice.

Edited by briansnat
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In this case they said they found the magnet and glue portion of the container.  It's not 100% but not like what you guys are talking about where a second cache gets placed because they couldn't find a cache they were not sure about.

Unless the magnet and glue was a cleverly placed decoy. :D

If only the owner was around to ask. :o But the log history would tell you if someone found the decoy or not.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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hey. this weekend i logged a find on a cache that i found, but it didn't have a log. no log to sign. it was definately a find, though. i found at the correct coordinates a tupperware container matching the description containing trade items and TBs. if you tell me i had to sign the log to claim it as found i will very politely and respectfully tell you where you can place that whole tupperware. sideways. fat end first.

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Well, obviously it's the spirit of the rule that counts, and not the exact letter.

 

Of course, that brings us back to square one, with "does this count?" questions.

 

Couldn't you just stop with "I opened the container"? That way if it was looted or the log is full or missing, you still count it as a find... but you have to do more than just see the container, especially in cases where it's locked or you need to figure out some trick to getting it open.

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To each there own, my book, this is a DNF followed by a SBA note. I am glad my finds so far have not been in a grey area, after all, it is not about the number, if it were, there would be more then a few that I have run across that would bug me. ;) Its what you are comfortable logging a find on, my biggest fear is finding the cache and not being able to access it followed by not finding it. Winter is on its way, I have yet to find a cache I could not open, on that note, I have apologized and/or replaced a few cache containers ;)

 

This one needs to be archived and the remains removed, signing the post is not a log book and is just graffiti.

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There are caches without logs. Some of them would not be allowed today. But they are grandfathered. A log is nothing more than a way to say "I was here" Logs are now traditional in that both this site requres them to list, and geocachers universally expect them now.

 

Given that he found the cache magnet with the container missing, signing a piece of paper and sticking it under the magenet is a valid log. Just as adding a log to a cache that is missing one would be.

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There are caches without logs. Some of them would not be allowed today. But they are grandfathered. A log is nothing more than a way to say "I was here" Logs are now traditional in that both this site requres them to list, and geocachers universally expect them now.

 

Given that he found the cache magnet with the container missing, signing a piece of paper and sticking it under the magenet is a valid log. Just as adding a log to a cache that is missing one would be.

That it would be if one can accept that to be a find for oneself. We all have a definition of what would be called a find, I would not do it but other would. It is the same as taking a picture of your GPS at the location of an archived cache and logging a find, its done, but not by me. Here the opinion of if this would be a find or not, depends on who's book you take the definition from. It is up to the cacher claiming the find and the cache owner in the end.

 

As I said, I have not run into the situation before, I do not know if I would claim finding the lid or remains of the cache as a find, you did find it, just not all of it. I am on the fence about trashing out the remains, claiming a find, but a SBA note should be logged.

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i found at the correct coordinates a tupperware container matching the description containing trade items and TBs. if you tell me i had to sign the log to claim it as found i will very politely and respectfully tell you where you can place that whole tupperware. sideways. fat end first.

Agreed.

 

Either a logbook or a container constitutes a find, even if the container has been cleaned out by muggles. I think this might even qualify for RN's tournament rules.

 

Someone places a cache. If you find that container you've found the cache. If you find the logbook laying on the ground and you sign it you've found the cache.

 

If you find a few McToys laying around but no logbook or no container then you have not found the cache.

 

A magnet but no container, as stated many times here, is not a find.

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we found a container missing, but found trade items and a TB on the ground. Find or not?  No log book found

Since the items were just laying on the ground, I would not count that as a find.

 

Part of placing a cache is hiding it so it isn't obvious to passers-by. Part of find the cache is discovering the secret (hidden, etc.) location. Just being in the vicinity of where the cache was hidden and finding trade items, TB doesn't count for discovering the secret.

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How about going back, replacing the missing cache with a new container and log book and signing that?

We have cachers in Arizona that do just that.. "I couldnt find the container, so I placed one. Thanks for the find"..

 

I wish I could express how lame this is in my opinion.

 

Over the years, especially earlier in the game I have replaced many containers both local and on road trips. Many people do this. Its not a big deal and it more often than not keeps a cache alive because the owner lives too far away or dropped out of the sport.

 

Many here are saying that these caches should be archived or adopted. This is not always necessary. I am keeping four local caches alive for someone who had to drop out of the sport. I have no interest in adopting them and the owner can't maintain them. But they stay active and people enjoy finding them. Why be up tight about the technical points?

 

The caches that need to be archived are the ones that are in need of maintenance and no one comes to the rescue.

 

So if you go hide 200 micro's, you can then claim a find on all 200 of them and really increase your numbers.

 

This is a bit unrealistic. If they replace a few missing containers and then claim a find for that effort why should anyone care? Not likely that this will happen in any great numbers for any one cacher. I would award a find to anyone who replaced one of my missing containers. If I don't like the container they used or its placement it is up to me to go fix it. I would have had to anyway.

 

If you replace it, are you not volunteering to take care and maintain it? Then does it not at that moment become your cache? Your claiming finds on your own hides?

 

Nope. Nope. Nope. I just replace them when it seems appropriate and that doesn't mean I'm then married to it.

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we found a container missing, but found trade items and a TB on the ground. Find or not? No log book found

I've done that, and picked up the 'cache guts' and called it a find. It's all that was left.

 

I've found caches smashed by bulldozers. I was lucky enough to get it open, but if I didn't and couldn't get to the log, I would still call it a find.

 

Locally we are now finding caches swapped all around. Thus we are finding the XYZ cache at the ZYX cache location. We solved the problem by logging a find on the cache we went looking for. When we can, we swap them back. Of course this messes up the logs, half are for one cache and the other half are for the original cache. So far we return the logs to the original owner.

 

Cache life has been interesting.

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It was a dead cache when it went missing and the cache owner did not maintain it properly. Now the area is open for a new cache to be placed by an active cacher. To me cache maintenance is the responsibility of the original cache placer, I have enough of a job maintaining the caches I have. Replacing a full log book or adding ziplock bags is helpful, replacing the whole cache, if I knew the cache owners maybe, if not, I would not in case it was not missing. In this case there was evidence that the cache was missing by the magnet, absent cache owner = an unmaintained cache, remove the remains and have the cache archived. Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Car37&Shnde
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we found a container missing, but found trade items and a TB on the ground. Find or not?  No log book found

I've done that, and picked up the 'cache guts' and called it a find. It's all that was left.

 

That gets me thinking. I would go one step further with this condition. I would add a container or make a temp. container out of local materials like rocks, boards, sticks, etc. and add something for a logbook even if only a scrap of paper, preferrably in a ziplock. (I can easily amuse myself while geocaching.) Then post a find with a comment that a new container is needed. This would be an effort to PROLONG the life of the cache rather than to END it.

 

Once a cacher did use only a ziplock bag to replace one of our missing containers and several found it before it could be fixed - and everyone had fun!

 

I'm now taking a "kinder, gentler" approach to the concept of logging a find when only scattered McToys are present. Thanks for the ideas people!

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I have enough of a job maintaining the caches I have. Replacing a full log book or adding ziplock bags is helpful, replacing the whole cache, if I knew the cache owners maybe... ...In this case there was evidence that the cache was missing by the magnet, absent cache owner = an unmaintained cache, remove the remains and have the cache archived. Just my 2 cents.

In replacing a container you don't have to fill it with expensive stuff. If people want that cache to stay alive they will add stuff to it for awhile. Of course it will degenerate anyway into what all caches become but if it is a good location people will be happy they came. It is NOT the stuff we cache for. It is THE HUNT, and the place and the adventure.

 

If the cache is in a lame place then people, even I, won't do anything to help it. Requests for archive that say the place is a lame garbage dump and who would want to come here will quickly be honored.

 

I, personally, find it fun to try to keep a cache alive. If a cache owner were to have a problem with that I would politely ignore them.

 

if not (a friend's cache), I would not (replace it) in case it was not missing.

 

One interesting and fun example of this is that one of the I Hate I-5 series caches in Oregon went missing. Owner lived too far away (It was placed in 2001, back when we NEEDED vacations caches in order to survive a long trip). I couldn't find it in the dark one night. Next finder added a container. Later that container went missing. I traveled back back through again two months later and brought a new container. In the process I not only found the container I missed the first time but also found the replacement. Neither one was missing. We all had a good laugh and no one was unhappy.

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I seem to remember a cache placed by Renegade Knight in the Stanley, Idaho area. He never actually placed it at the intended cache location, and he forgot to fill it with anything (including the logbook). As I remember kindly local cachers stocked the cache, moved it to the proper hiding place and provided him with the corrected coordinates. Now thats what I call good caching attitude.

 

:mad:

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Personally, I'd call it a find - the effort was made, and through no fault of the cacher's, the object was denied.

 

I'd post a find and a note to have it repaired/archived.

I agree, the effort was made and it's no fault of the 'cacher, but he didn't find it. You can't find something that isn't there right? :mad: Personally I would post this as a DNF with a full explanation. Nothing wrong with that...

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I don’t worry about under what conditions other people log finds. But since you asked, "What do you think?"

 

When my fifth hunt, I found where the geocache had been (verified by owner), I decided on this rule for myself.

 

It isn’t a find, unless I get my hands on the geocache and sign the log. It doesn’t matter if it is my fault (it is there, I just didn’t find it), the hider’s fault (example they posted bad coordinates), somebody else’s fault (examples a mundane stole it, or bear ate it), I don’t log a find unless I find it. It doesn’t matter how far I had to go or what I had to do to get there.

 

While I do reserve the right to snicker at someone who logs a find when the geocache is gone, I don’t worry about it or get mad.

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So you log this a find, I download it into GSAK, see it was "found" last week, and go looking for it. No cache container. Maybe I find the magnet too. Logging a cache that is in this condition as a "find" misleads later cachers.

 

BUT, if you replaced the container (or log book) and log a find, I go next week and find the new container, I am a happy camper! I would count that as a fine, post a note, and leave it to the cache owner to maintain it from there.

 

I carry a few spare log books with me. Found a cache last weekend whose log book was so full, cachers had written on the inside and outside of the covers, front and back. I dropped a new log book and mentioned in my log on line. Cache owner posted a note with a nice TYVM.

 

I don't carry spare micro (or regular) containers with me, so since I wouldn't be able to restore this cache, it would be a dnf and needs to be archived, IMHO. Maybe I need to start carrying spare containers and some glue!

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Personally, I'd call it a find - the effort was made, and through no fault of the cacher's, the object was denied.

 

I'd post a find and a note to have it repaired/archived.

Yes, the effort was made and it was not fault of the seeker that "the object was denied."

 

But, as you said, the "object was denied" -- it wasn't found. Therefore, it can't be logged as a find.

 

If everyone logged a find just because an effort was made...

 

By logging it as a find you are doing a disservice to the next cacher, even if a note is posted.

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So you log this a find, I download it into GSAK, see it was "found" last week, and go looking for it. No cache container. Maybe I find the magnet too. Logging a cache that is in this condition as a "find" misleads later cachers.

This is a very good point. An effort to replace the container and give the next person something they feel comfortable logging as a find should be worth a find unless the cache owner objects.

 

What I'm taking with me from this topic is that if I find a magnet by itsself I won't log it as a find but if I replace the container in some fashion I just might.

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:mad:

 

I'm not sure I totally agree that this is a no find. Hey he's been there, done it. I do agree with Yucca Patrol that he should replace it and take co-ownership, or something like that, then he could truely log it as a find.

 

On a similer note I found a Cache out west, in Albuquerque, the cache was a small sign wired to a chain link fence, the sign flipped up and you signed (in magic marker) the rear of the sign. No cache book, and sort of a cache. Now is that considered a cache? Also the sign was for a fencing company, did signing the rear of the sign make it vandalism?

 

One other point since we are disgussing right and wrong in a round about way. SeventhSon has a picture of Yosemite Sam posted, I hate to say this but good old Yosemite Sam is a copywritten image, just ask Warner Bros.. The penalty for unauthorized use of a copywritten image is pretty severe, not to mention expensive. So, what do we do about that?

 

Runfrog

aka Gwynn

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