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Defining Free Geocaching


Pantalaimon

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The part of geocaching.com that lists some of the Premium Member benefits states the following:

 

Are you going to charge us to go Geocaching?

Never! The traditional Geocaching game will always be free. Subscriptions will be for new enhancements and new games added to Groundspeak. It takes development time and resources ($$) in order to make these ideas come to life. Not to mention the continuing hardware upgrades to keep the site responsive to your visits.

 

My question is two-fold:

 

1. The first part of the question can presumably only be answered by a select few individuals (maybe only even one) who may or may not wish to clarify. What is the definition of "traditional Geocaching game" in the above paragraph? Is it the policy of geocaching.com that I will always be able to, for example, put in a zip code and find a list of the caches closest to me?

 

2. The second part of the question is open to all: What SHOULD the definition of "traditional Geocaching game" be in the above paragraph? Or asked a different way, what options, functions, perks, etc. of geocaching.com do you believe should remain free to the unwashed masses?

 

Thanks,

Pan

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I'm not one of the "select few" but I would think that what is free now, will always be free. :laughing:

That's about what I would guess, meaning being able to download waypoints and basic cache information. When you start getting into things like downloading tailored information, such as caches along a route, that probably would not be included with free access.

 

Unless of course you mean, will people start charging you for finding their cache? (just kidding).

Edited by Elf Danach
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I'm not one of the "select few" but I would think that what is free now, will always be free. :laughing:

Well, now, correct me if I'm wrong, because 1) I seriously don't remember, and 2) I was a premium member for a while back there, but with the old maps, couldn't a non-paying member still scroll the map. Now, with the new maps, to use any of the functions you have to be a premium member.

 

Now, this is just an example, and maybe a bad one as it may not be accurate. But my point is, as features become better and better at geocaching.com (and yes, I would agree that features are improving) is it possible that non-paying members will start losing access to more of the now-free features.

 

Maybe some people will say I'm out of line for suggesting that this point be clarified, but I suppose the first part of my question above is the most important part of the overall issue.

 

What features will always remain free?

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Pan,

 

The old maps did allow scrolling. They're still available, with that functionality. Here's the old map for Massachusetts. Scroll away!

 

The new maps are more resource-intensive and thus certain features are available only to premium members. It's always been that way, other than unintended things like what was brought up recently in regard to panning with the new maps.

 

Old maps vs. new maps? Apples vs. oranges.

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Well, now, correct me if I'm wrong, because 1) I seriously don't remember, and 2) I was a premium member for a while back there, but with the old maps, couldn't a non-paying member still scroll the map. Now, with the new maps, to use any of the functions you have to be a premium member.

It was mentioned in another thread that the non-members being able to scroll was just a programming glitch that's been corrected.

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What is the definition of "traditional Geocaching game?"

 

What features will always remain free?

Why don't you just e-mail Jeremy with your question?

 

I think they are reasonable questions. I think the official answers to those questions are of such general interest to the entire geocaching community that both the questions and the official answers should be pinned to the top of the geocaching.com forum.

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I would think, and no offence intended, that it will always be free to choose not to use this particular site at all.

I in turn intend no offense with my response, but of what use is that reply?

 

It's a truism that its free not to use a web site. You say "no offence," but then seem to make the ole' "get lost" implication.

 

I would appreciate clarification, if you're willing to provide the same.

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more of the now-free features

what features would that be exactly?

What features are now free?

 

Well, I'm sure there is an argument that no aspect of geocaching is free due to SOME expense that's involved in the activity (e.g. cost of computer, GPSr, gas, etc.), but generally, the features that I define as free features of geocaching.com include the ability to put in a zip code, or coordinates, and get a complete list of all (non-member) caches listed in some sort of reasonable order (closest to furthest, for example). Also, the ability to access the individual web page for each cache, to read the details, see the logs, and decrypt the hints. The ability (as Keystone pointed out) to see a map (any map will do) with all the caches laid out across the state.

 

These are all features that, in the future, could easily be locked for paying members only.

 

What if the only thing a non-paying member could get access to was a list of geocaches, by state, with the name of the cache, the hider, and the coordinates. That's it. Its still allows for some level of geocaching, but its certainly not a level that geocachers are generally used to. Would this still be a resonable interpretation of the sentiment that "geocaching will always be free."

 

Some people seem to take offense to this topic, and for that (i.e. any offense you individually perceive) I apologize.

 

This is not an attack, or a rabble-rousing. It's just a conversation. :laughing:

 

We're just talking here. No need to get any feathers ruffled.

 

If you don't like the topic, its okay not to answer. Really, it is.

 

If you have something to add, I'd love to hear it.

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actually I interpret "Always free" as everything you said here -

 

maps

access to the cache page and the logs

as you said

Also, the ability to access the individual web page for each cache, to read the details, see the logs, and decrypt the hints.

and the ability to log your caches too!

 

I don't see that changing. I paid up to get the PQ's and support this site - from what I could see at that time, that was the ONLY thing I got for the $30. No Members only caches here. As was noted, I could also pan, zoom, and manipulate the gc map as desired - and see all other maps too - all before I was a paid member. And that was when it said you could not do those things unless you paid. So now they have 'locked down' the functions to come into comliance with their written procedure. So what is the fuss here? If you are a paid member then you are getting more for your money. - :laughing: - If you are not a paid member then you have not lost anything that you were not supposed to get in the first place.

 

And as stated, new features are going to the members - non members get the basic features of free geocaching. No frills and extras. That would be expected as far as I can see.

Edited by CompuCash
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..more of the now-free features

what features would that be exactly?

What features are now free?

 

By saying 'more' I wasn't certain if you meant new features coming out being offered as free, or old features being taken away. Either one would take the conversation in a different direction.

 

But after re-reading your post today, I see you meant old.

 

Edit: screwed up the quotes, additional thought.

Edited by Elf Danach
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So what is the fuss here? If you are a paid member then you are getting more for your money. - :laughing: - If you are not a paid member then you have not lost anything that you were not supposed to get in the first place.

Everything you said seems to be true. As I see it, this is a conversation about potential future issues.

 

No fuss. Just conversation.

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Cool! I had no idea that you could look at these. The new maps have lots more functionality, but these give a different POV. I like it. (Of course, I just edited the URL to insert TX instead of MA).

 

OT, non-members benefit a lot from new features that are free to them, as a result of the support of members.

 

Geocaching isn't an entitlement. You are not entitled to any free functionality, nor am I. TPTB maintain this site at their pleasure. I'm grateful for it. The geocaching community empowers TPTB by frequenting the site. If the community doesn't like it, they will find alternative ways to engage in the RASH.

 

The OP was, in my opinion, asking for a promise from Jeremy, but even that promise isn't enforceable. Relax and enjoy!

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The OP was, in my opinion, asking for a promise from Jeremy, but even that promise isn't enforceable.

I'm not looking for a "promise" per se, but just some clarification of intent, as explained above.

 

Certainly a promise isn't enforceable in any legal manner, but an explanation could hopefully give one an idea of the future intent of TPTB at geocaching.com, and perhaps provides a moral standard to which to be held.

 

And, I'm relaxing, I'm enjoying.

 

But I'm curious too. :laughing:

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Cool! I had no idea that you could look at these. The new maps have lots more functionality, but these give a different POV. I like it. (Of course, I just edited the URL to insert TX instead of MA).

I guess it would be good to tell you how to get to those maps. These maps are only available for the USA, I think.

 

On the main page of the site at the top right you will see pull down boxes to search caches by state. Use the drop down arrow to select the state and press the "GO" button. You will be taken to the state page. At the top of the page it says "[map]". Click that for the map. Scroll and zoom away!

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I agree w/ the OP. Giving something and then taking it away (glitch or not), doesn't really make me want to support the site, it makes me frusterated. If a business doesn't provide a consistant level of services to all its clients, why pay for the services? Even if you are not a premium member, you are still supporting the business by generating interest, buying TBs/gear, etc.

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I agree w/ the OP. Giving something and then taking it away (glitch or not), doesn't really make me want to support the site, it makes me frusterated. If a business doesn't provide a consistant level of services to all its clients, why pay for the services? Even if you are not a premium member, you are still supporting the business by generating interest, buying TBs/gear, etc.

If the cable company was accidently giving you HBO for free, and then shut it off, would you dump your cable service?

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Okay, first of all, with the last two previous posts we seem to be regressing into a debate about "upsetness" at taking things away. Seems relevant, but for the record, I didn't intend this to be a discussion about the recent map correction because (as the points been made) non-members were never supposed to have access in the first place.

 

The question I asked was what is/should/will always be "free" on this site.

 

But I know better than to try to gently moderate my own thread, so ... as you were.

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But I know better than to try to gently moderate my own thread, so ... as you were.

Pant,

 

I really appreciate the tact and decorum that you have exhibited. I apologize for putting words in your mouth regarding the intention of the OP. I think it is certainly appropriate to ask about the plans of TPTB regarding the site. If I were in charge, I would probably be reluctant to get too specific about the future, because I wouldn't want to disappoint people if things turned out differently than I expected.

 

If you think about it, cache seekers are like any other web browsers, and can find info where ever their search engines may take them. Cache hiders, on the other hand, have invested time and effort, counting on TPTB to provide info in a helpful (and that means free) manner. Before I go to the time and expense of placing a cache (and for the record, I'm one of the leaches that doesn't have a hide yet), I think it is fair to ask whether, by following the guidelines and posting my cache page here, I will get suitable exposure to cache seekers.

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The question I asked was what is/should/will always be "free" on this site.

In my opinion, at least getting cache waypoints per country, having the 3rd party map service links from cache pages, having the ability to search nearest caches from home coords or from a certain cache, having the ability to search caches per name and having access to geocaching-related forums should always be free on this site.

 

Can't really say anything about zipcode-based searches, province- (or state)-based searches or having gc.com maps, because so far I haven't got them, whether I paid or not.

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I can't imagine TPTB answering this question. Lets say that the intention is for everything that is free to remain so. No one can say what the business model for GC.com will need to be in ten years in order to survive. Should this statement lock TPTB into never making anything that is currently free pay-to-play?

 

Consider that, in a down economy, the decision is made to make the forums pay-to-play. Certainly the forums are not part of the 'traditional' game. The decision to make them fee-based would not affect most players and might increase site revenue. Sounds like a good idea.

 

Maybe the decision would be to make .loc downloads pay-only (or do away with them completely, thereby forcing those who want to download waypoints to become members). Downloading .loc files are not necessary to play this game.

 

However, someone would drag this thread up and TPTB would be branded as disingenuous.

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I would think, and no offence intended, that it will always be free to choose not to use this particular site at all.

I in turn intend no offense with my response, but of what use is that reply?

 

It's a truism that its free not to use a web site. You say "no offence," but then seem to make the ole' "get lost" implication.

 

I would appreciate clarification, if you're willing to provide the same.

I put the 'no offence intended' in there because I truly meant (and mean) it. There was no ulterior motive. I was mearly pointing out the obvious, as you acknowledged as a truism.

 

As far as it being useful? That is up to others to decide.

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I hope the features that are free now will remain free so new geocachers can get a feel for the game. We enjoyed geocaching so much we became paying members just to support the site and help with the expenses they have invovled maintaining it.

We would normaly spend much more than the yearly fee just taking the kids out on a weekend excursion. Geocaching has provided us with many hours of fun and memories. I wish anyone who enjoys geocaching would become a premium member just to show your support even if you dont need the extra features.

Mike

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Free caching was never viable. The solution now is a compromise. I pay about 10X what I would need to so geocaching can remain 'free'. It's the listings I'm paying for. Cache owners pretty much donate their time and caches to the hobby.

 

Any site that is a success will face the same issue. The real debate is if everyone should pay a little, or a few pay more. If everyone faced with paying 3 bucks a year jumped ship and Navicache grew like GC.com has had to grow they would face the same problem and have to start charging.

 

To tell you the truth I don't know the right answer as to what should be free or if everyone should share the load. The real answer is the one that does the best job for the most people in the long run. That's an answer I'd like to have.

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Other than the ability to log into the site, see cache pages (the non-members only ones), read the coords and log a find there really doesn’t need to be anything else. That’s enough for anyone play. In fact it’s just enough to wet the whistle of most people. From there they will A) continue playing that way B ) not play anymore C) upgrade to premium membership. I personally think most folks fall into the latter two categories.

 

All the other stuff isn’t really needed to play. This includes the ability to download 20 caches at a time from the search page.

 

When I first started playing I had a basic Etrex yellow. The website didn’t give me much more than what I described above. Since I’m basically lazy I wanted a cable to link GPS to computer, Mapsource maps to view caches, a better GPS, a PDA and PQs to tie them all together. I don’t need those things to Geocache. I wanted them.

 

So basically all that needs to remain free would have to be the things I pointed out in the first paragraph.

Edited by Harrald
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I'm not one of the "select few" but I would think that what is free now, will always be free. :blink:

SPEAKING OF THINGS THAT USED TO BE FREE--oops, didn't mean to shout ;) --on the geocaching.com maps i used to be able to zoom in and out and go east, south, etc....tried to do this today to see if there was a cache in an area i had planned to place one and couldn't get these functions to work....are these premium features that i inadvertantly was able to use in the past but will no be able to, or still available to el cheapos but just not working?...thanks

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are these premium features that i inadvertantly was able to use in the past but will no be able to

Yes, kosarin. They were never correctly locked previously and now they are.

 

Also, to what Harrald was saying, I am in category A. I am happy with my geocaching and GC.com experience when I geocache. It is free and it is usable. As long as the parts that Harrald outlined above remain free and usable, I will remain happy that the "traditional game" is free as advertised.

 

As most are well aware, that does not mean that I do not wish certain aspects of GC.com were different, but those discussions are not a part of this topic.

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SPEAKING OF THINGS THAT USED TO BE FREE--oops, didn't mean to shout :lol: --on the geocaching.com maps  i used to be able to zoom in and out and go east, south, etc....tried to do this today to see if there was a cache in an area i had planned to place one and couldn't get these functions to work....are these premium features that i inadvertantly was able to use in the past but will no be able to, or still available to el cheapos but just not working?...thanks

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that these maps are still there. For example:

http://www.geocaching.com/map/PA.asp

 

I don't know if there is an easy/logical way to otherwise navigate to them...(?)

 

-Jason

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If the cable company was accidently giving you HBO for free, and then shut it off, would you dump your cable service?

If the cable service was down as often as GC.com, then yes :o

 

I kid, I kid.

 

Cable service and GC is an apples to oranges comparison. Take other free basic/paid premium web services like email: If I had basic Yahoo!, and they suddenly disabled the 'reply to all' functionality on the basis that it was always intended to be for premium members, that would also frustrate me and make me look for alternatives that were more reliable before I would pay for their service. It is a basic precept of service-oriented business not to frusterate or negatively surprise your customer base... current or potential.

 

Some may say that 'Reply to all' is a basic email function that would never be taken away, but the majority of free map sites all include map panning navigation... I never would have imagined having to pay for it, and the lack of it seriously degrades the usefulness of the service.

 

I still like GC, but the change in service makes it so it's easier *not* to use it. I need map panning, so I download waypoints and look at them with Expert GPS (which I paid for after consistant positive use of the free Easy GPS). So this change has personally made GC less of a part of geocaching, and less likely for me to be a premium member. Just sharing my experience, not trying to slam GC.

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Pan,

 

The old maps did allow scrolling.  They're still available, with that functionality.  Here's the old map for Massachusetts. Scroll away!

 

The new maps are more resource-intensive and thus certain features are available only to premium members.  It's always been that way, other than unintended things like what was brought up recently in regard to panning with the new maps.

 

Old maps vs. new maps?  Apples vs. oranges.

Keystone,

 

Today is the first day in a while I've been planning a geocaching weekend. I decided I'd use "the old maps" so I could see what was in the area of my hunt, because the "new maps" were recently locked down for scrolling or panning.

 

Now, with regards to your post, just so we're clear.

 

The maps you reference above are not "the old maps." They are a small useless portion of the old maps. The maps you refernced do not show you the names of ANY caches anymore, and they do not even allow you to link to a cache through the map.

 

What good, I ask you, is that?

 

In fact, why are they even maintained?

 

I'm beginning to think you were not attempting to respond helpfully with the above post, but rather you were responding tongue-in-cheek. What is particularly telling is the line "scroll away."

 

Because scrolling a view of the state looking generally at how many caches there are is all you can do with these maps.

 

The second quote above was my original post here, but I'm retracting it because I jumped the gun.

 

I was wrong about the old maps, and I apologize to Keystone.

 

I was going to just remove the post, but I figured some had already read it.

 

Sorry again Keystone. :mad:

Edited by Pantalaimon
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What is particularly telling is the line "scroll away." 

 

Because scrolling a view of the state looking generally at how many caches there are is all you can do with these maps.

Not true. At least on my browser, I can zoom, pan and identify on the old map. When I zoom in and then hit identify, the cache names appear on the map, and links to the caches appear below.

 

I response to an earlier question on the thread about finding these maps, at least for US cachers, you can get to them from the GC home page by clicking on the "by state" drop down menu, just below the "by zip code" in the upper right courner of the page.

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I don't mean extremely helpful or essential with regard to doing one cache, I mean with regard to planning, say, a three hundred mile trip on which you want to do caches along the way.

 

I used to pan the major route I was going to take, and pick off some caches from the map along the way.

 

Now, I don't see a way to do that that is not super time intensive.

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I wasn't talking about doing one cache. I just mentioned when I started that the only online map gc.com linked to was mapquest showing one at a time. So I had to do my multi geocache trip planing without online maps showing multi geocaches. So I stand my answer

 

Helpful yes, extremely helpful no, essential no.

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Sorry again Keystone. :lol:

Much appreciated, and not a problem. You are generally trying to conduct a constructive discussion here, and the answers are not intuitive. I truly was just trying to be helpful by directing folks to the old maps. Yes, they have limitations, but they were what we had before the new maps which were intended to have premium features.

 

Perhaps you could consider changing your account name to Can'tPan-tamalion. :mad:

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Pantalaimon Posted on Sep 24 2004, 05:43 AM

 

Do others agree that panning a map to see the caches around your hunt location is a function that is extremely helpful (maybe essential) in planning a geocaching trip? 

 

I like maps. I like them a lot. I like them as much as KA and Criminal like girls. I like to pan maps. In fact, I am a visual learner but not a linear thinker, so I have to SEE what I am doing. For me, panning maps was essential. Most on-line maps allow the person veiwing the map to scroll. It is only practical...often what you really want is not centered on the map, but is located just along a boundary.

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