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No Good Deed Goes Unpunished


AuntieWeasel

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So...early this Summer, I decide to hide my first geocache. I pick out a good-sized suburban park with a nice patch of trees, all very convenient to me. Turns out, it's no longer owned by the town, but has recently been deeded out to a private land management trust.

 

Hm. I ask around my regional forum, and I'm pointed to a newspaper article quoting their spokesman as saying they don't object to geocaching, but they like to be asked. Okay. These people manage a ton of properties in the area and I want to do this right, so I send an email to the manager of this specific park asking permission.

 

A couple of weeks go by, and I get an answer -- we'll give you an answer in a couple of weeks. Starting to feel like a bit of a prize chump, but okay -- patience. If I handle this well, it should pay dividends (if I handle it badly, I'll have to change my name and move to another state, but that's a different story).

 

More than a couple of weeks go by. Finally, last week, I get the go-ahead -- provided everyone plays nice, we have written permission. I promised to give the park manager a link to the cache page and describe the hide to him and to fly out on wings of song and archive the sucker if anyone so much as gets the sniffles over it. You get the idea.

 

I've told him already where I wanted to put it -- three steps off the path is a tree that looks healthy, but is hollow on the opposite side. Today, I slip out at lunch to try my Rubbermaid for size, and it's a perfect fit. So perfect, in fact, that I can't use the one I camo'd -- I can't see the blessed thing looking straight at it.

 

You know where this is going, don't you? Poking around the bottom of the tree, I find a letterbox. (First one I've ever seen -- it's in a large prescription pill bottle. Surely, they aren't usually this tiny?). Checking it out, it's been hidden in the last month.

 

It's one thing if someone nips in ahead of you. It's another if they manage it because you were wasting time getting permission. I haven't contacted the letterboxer yet because I haven't a clue what to say.

 

I tried to find a similar spot (since I described this one to the park manager), or even another good spot of a different description. I don't want to exacerbate the bad feelings that crop up between letterboxers and geocachers. I would hate myself if I did anything that sounded like strongarming the letterboxer. I can't just let it drop, though -- what would the park manager make of that? Two in one tree isn't good, either.

 

The most tactful thing I can think of (other than emailing the manager and telling him I had a total nervous breakdown and to forget the whole thing), is to write the letterboxer and ask if she'd like to make it a letterbox hybrid. But cachers don't seem awfully keen on those, and I don't know how letterboxers feel about them.

 

Input?

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Hmmmmm.... :blink: A chance like this to take the totally opposite point of view from Jeremy doesn't come up too often, and I know I shouldn't pass it up... I gotta agree with that.. share the space, although I would explore the 'hybrid' idea too, just to see where that leads....

 

Edit: Spelung

Edited by tirediron
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Ugh! I personally wish LB and GC shared data to keep them out of each others' hair. We ask cache's to be 528' away so they won't be mistaken for each other after all!

 

As both hobbies become more popular, it seems this problem becomes more prevalent. A recent thread in the New England region forum has a poor letterboxer's homemade stamp swapped out by a clueless geocacher (presumably) for a pen/scratchpad!

 

Nevermind caching in a group, spotting the corner of tupperware and sitting back having "found it", wait for all the others only to discover it's a LB and you've wasted all that time.

 

However, I'd be as indignant as you. I'd place the cache, but warn finders on the page of the nearby letterbox and clearly indicate permission.

 

I'd let the park authorities know about the offending letterbox since they have a policy regarding such things and it's not up to you to enforce them.

 

I might, if I was feeling overly considerate contact the letterbox placer advising them of park policy and pointing out ignoring it is bad PR for BOTH our hobbies!

 

Either way, consideration and tact are certainly warranted.

 

hth,

 

Randy

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Ugh! I personally wish LB and GC shared data to keep them out of each others' hair.

Ha! I can see that. Letterboxers would say "My letterbox is in Discovery Park" or worse (and more often), "I ain't tellin"

 

They are a secretive bunch.

 

And if I sent them latititude/longitude, I'd get blank stares back.

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Heh, a few months ago, I decided to do a multi on a large and beautiful piece of property near me. I scouted some locations, took some coords, and then, you guessed it, a local boxer placed THREE letterboxes on the property - most of them right where I was going to put stages.

 

I contacted the letterboxer and told him my plans - and he graciously offered to let me list the coords on the lids of his boxes! Very nice.

 

In the end, though, I decided on just a single, as he did not put a box where I planned to put the final cache (which is a mile from the car as it is). My biggest concern was that one of his boxes might get muggled, and then I'd be missing a stage, etc. Instead, I suggest that anyone who wants a longer hike and more thorough tour of the area do his letterboxes while they are there, and I placed a link to his clues on my cache page.

 

But, it was very nice of him to offer.

 

As for your situation, I basically agree with Randy. Place your box and just let everyone know that there is a letterbox nearby as well, and be sure to describe the box and the cache. Even though there ocassionally seems to be a bit of tension between the two groups, I think many people are starting to enjoy both hobbies. And, if everyone can play nice, there shouldn't be any problems.

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I'd let the park authorities know about the offending letterbox since they have a policy regarding such things and it's not up to you to enforce them.

 

I might, if I was feeling overly considerate contact the letterbox placer advising them of park policy and pointing out ignoring it is bad PR for BOTH our hobbies!

 

That's a good idea. Starting a war of ratting each other out wherever there are confilicts.

 

Auntie said she read an article that mentioned that the managing authority "liked to be asked" about geocaching. She didn't say it was a POLICY. It's possible that the letterboxer didn't read this article and wasn't aware that they "would like to be asked" (BTW, if you ask the managing authority of 1,000 parks about geocaching, I bet 999 would say "they would like to be asked").

 

In this case AW gave the park the courtesy of asking and because of that, someone beat her to the spot. I think if a geocache had appeared there instead and there was no policy REQUIRING permission, the attitude of a lot of people would have been "thats what you get for asking".

 

In this case, the letterboxer beat AW to the spot, so AW can either ask the owner of the box if he minds sharing the spot with a geocache (there is no real reason they can't), find another spot, or place the cache and if the LB owner complains, say "oopsies, I didn't notice your LB there".

Edited by briansnat
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Ugh!  I personally wish LB and GC shared data to keep them out of each others' hair.

Ha! I can see that. Letterboxers would say "My letterbox is in Discovery Park" or worse (and more often), "I ain't tellin"

 

They are a secretive bunch.

 

And if I sent them latititude/longitude, I'd get blank stares back.

Who needs stinkin' numbers, when you can be wandering around searching for a rock that sort of looks like a basset hound?

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I would start with the suggestion of a hybrid if their container will easily fit into your's.

 

An extra sheet explaining that the pill bottle is NOT a trade item and a few comments on her clues page as to the fact that it's *in* the geocache would clear up any problems pretty well and she would get adopted permission as part of your geocache so no problems with the land manager.

 

In fact, it'd be another layer for her ink and stamp to stay out of the weather, which is a good thing when it comes to letterboxes.

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I'm new, so I'm naive. It puzzles me that Letterboxers (and letterboxes) and Geocachers (and their caches) don't get along swimmingly.

 

Like I said: naive.

 

-JP

Actually many of us do both, but I think any animosity comes largely from the letterboxers, many of whom view geocaching as letterboxing for stupid people.

 

Some of us remember the parody of the geocaching.com website done by letterboxing folk a while ago that left a bitter taste in the mouth of some geocachers.

Edited by briansnat
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I would start with the suggestion of a hybrid if their container will easily fit into your's.

 

An extra sheet explaining that the pill bottle is NOT a trade item and a few comments on her clues page as to the fact that it's *in* the geocache would clear up any problems pretty well and she would get adopted permission as part of your geocache so no problems with the land manager.

 

In fact, it'd be another layer for her ink and stamp to stay out of the weather, which is a good thing when it comes to letterboxes.

 

I was going to say that I think I might just place the pillbox into my own container with instructions not to take it & go ahead & either stamp it or a lot of cachers have their own 'stickers'/'address labels with their screen names' on the letterbox.

 

It WOULD make a nice addition to your cache. :laughing:

 

But, I would not WORRY about asking the letterboxer first, since they did not get permission.

 

Good luck with your cache..sounds like a good one!

 

Shirley~

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But, I would not WORRY about asking the letterboxer first, since they did not get permission.

 

We still haven't established that permission was required here.

 

I was going to say that I think I might just place the pillbox into my own container with instructions not to take it & go ahead & either stamp it or a lot of cachers have their own 'stickers'/'address labels with their screen names' on the letterbox.

 

If I were the letterbox owner and someone tampered with my box, I'd be as furious as I am when I find someone tampers with my geocache.

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Shouldn't we be respectful of eachother's property. Permission is not an issue here, it is courtesy. Each time we act hot-headed and entitled about our sport another location will become off-limits.

 

Personally, I would contact the LB and see if there is a resolution both can adhere to. Otherwise, find another spot, I am sure there is at least one other spot in the whole park! :laughing:

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Actually many of us do both, but I think any animosity comes largely from the letterboxers, many of whom view geocaching as letterboxing for stupid people.

 

Some of us remember the parody of the geocaching.com website done by letterboxing folk a while ago that left a bitter taste in the mouth of some geocachers.

brian, you put that so tactfully and nicely. i just thought it shouldn't pass without notice.

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Leave it to the Weasel to come up with an actual dilemma. Something unique!

 

Shouldn't we be respectful of eachother's property. Permission is not an issue here, it is courtesy. Each time we act hot-headed and entitled about our sport another location will become off-limits.

What if this letterboxer turned out to be your cousin? Not THAT cousin...the one you really like? Take the high road. You have two choices.

1. do whatever it takes to find a new location, or

2. make a face-to-face, congenial agreement with this letterboxer.

Anything less leaves you open to conflict and aggravation.

 

Never pray for patience, because patience has to be earned . No magic.

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I don't understand the animosity here.

 

I've only found one letterbox, and that was by accident. I was camping in a park that I didn't get cache listings for (duh - that was stupid). So during a hike I would look around for a good hiding spot, and I found a letterbox. At first I thought it was a geocache, but after reading the logs I realized it wasn't.

 

I contacted the owner and she seemed very nice. She didn't mind a geocacher finding her letterbox!

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I must admit I'm puzzled as well by some of the anti-L.B. tones stirring below the surface here. If I had the time and situation to get around some more, I'd certainly be looking for letterboxes along with caches.

 

Right when I started caching, I also read about letterboxing through the link provided by geocaching.com. I made up my own stamp, which for a long time I was adding to my logs in caches as well. I have been working for a long time on a multi cache to place which utilizes letterbox style clues, along with g-c coords. My personal view has always been that the two hobbies should co-exist peacefully.

 

Though I see how some letterbox hunts could be very challenging, I see no reason for Letterboxing to be viewing itself as so snooty if thats the view they are extending.

 

I guess its a big sandbox, and seeking an amiable existence seems the best course to me. We as cachers ARE the "newcomers" really; even if we have the greater numbers, how does that justify pushing someone elses hobby aside ?

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I don't understand the animosity here.

 

Posts from several Letterboxing forums:

 

I've never seen a geocache before -- what

a huge container!! The stuff (dare I say trash) leaves me to wonder what folks in the next millenium will be thinking after this fad has faded and all

those Maine caches are encountered!! Meanwhile, I'm going to buy

stock in Dollar Tree if that is what they hide %^)

 

At least LB'rs have an appreciation for the finer things in life,

stamp art and clever clues.

 

there was a great debate raging on the LbNA yahoo group over Geocachers and what damage they were doing to the surrounding areas when they 'searched'. I personally have seen a geocacher trampling undergrowth and everything for a 50 foot radius as he searched for his cache, only to discover that they were some 200 feet south of where they needed to be.

 

It's my belief that Geocaching appeals to those of us that are looking for the instant gratification. No need to decipher anything, no need to create anything, just input the coordinates into your handheld GPS and do some walking, then a little hunting and, bingo, cache found. Sign in drop off the Kids Meal toy and take something if you choose and off to the next one. Creating a geocache... Basically the same save finding a large enough container and a location to hide said same that can handle it's size, salt it with a log book and a few Kids Meals toys and publish the Lat/Long on the website and read as people gush over your cleverness of using a branch to cover over the hiding place and the incredible treasures you've left there.

 

OK this one is obviously trying to be funny, but:

While campaiging in Portland, OR, Democratic Presidential candidate

John Kerry took some time off the campaign trail to hit some local

hiking trails to pursue some letterboxing, a hobby he recently read

about in TIME magazine. While on the trails, Kerry happened on a

local letterboxing celebrity who calls herself Funhog. After giving

Kerry a ride on her Harley-Davidson motorcycle, Funhog pressed the

democrat on the National Parks System's letterboxing and geocaching

policy. Kerry promised that if elected he would work to ensure

letterboxing would be allowed and that the penalty for geocaching

will be elevated to a federal capital offense.

 

and a follow up comment:

Oh ya'll! Well, if elevating geocaching to a federal offense

doesn't get him elected I don't know what would!

 

I have a feeling this person meant this to be a putdown:

I would have thought Bush to be more of a geocacher

type myself...

 

Here's a geocacher who does the right thing and a prominent letterboxer's response:

 

I got this from a Geocacher today:

 

Message:

While geocaching recently I came across a letterbox in Arroyo

Grande. Being new to geocaching, I didn't realize this was an

entirely different game. The stamp (which the box said not to

remove) was missing. So I figured ALL the stuff that

had been there was plundered. Being the good citizen I am :laughing: I

refilled the LETTERBOX with GEOCACHE trinkets! (I'm turning red.)

 

ANYHOW...can't find any mention of an Arroyo Grande letterbox on

this site....

 

From: Jen.

Sender's Email: JenPete@a...

==============================================================

I wrote her back asking exactly where she found the letterbox.

Probably get the GPS coordinates back. Seems most of them can read

that. At least she wrote me asking if it was my box. Perhaps we can

save her from geocaching; seems like she has a good heart. Wonder if

she cheeseraces, though?

 

Sir B

 

This guy was annoyed by another missing stamp event, but had to put in a dig:

When I discovered that Nepenthe had been geotrashed, I let loose with enough foul language to make a whole squadron of Marines blush. When some reasonable and calm behavior returned, I left a note in the geocache (Sharpie Pen,

Fluorescent paper) asking that group to please learn the difference between a

letterbox and a geocache, and not take rubberstamps in exchange for useless,

uninteresting debris that couldn't amuse a 2 year old

 

And his imagined revenge:

WELL,... maybe it's time for me to go geocaching -- I have the location of one in a familiar spot that I know well. Oh! What a coincidence! I have something

rotten and smelly in the back of my refrigerator... REALLY NASTY!... But it's

perfect for an exchange item at the geocache! [VERY EVIL GRIN]

 

 

This took about 15 minutes of searching...I'm sure I could have found a lot more given time. I doubt you can find similar, anti-letterboxing statements here. There is a level of snobbery and smugness among many letterboxers and they enjoy looking down their noses at us.

Edited by briansnat
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Hi,

 

Based on the fact that we don't know if permission is actually required (didn't it just say appreciated?), and that the letterbox was there first, I would try to find another spot (there is a lot of surface area on this planet after all, even with all of the water)... :laughing:

 

Try to think of the reverse, if a letterboxer decided to put a letterbox in with your cache spot without asking you first...you'd be pissed off!

 

Getting in touch with the letterbox owner might be a good first step if you don't want to find a new spot, to ask if you can share the hiding spot, or list the spot as a hybrid.

 

just my $0.02

 

nfa

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The dislike seems pretty one-sided. I've been following the LBNA Yahoo group for a long time and they tend to pooh pooh geocaching.

 

The irony is the geocaching community has done so many things to keep geocaching and letterboxing in parks, and most geocaching folks, in return, offer no ill will to letterboxers. Most of the angst tends to come from their activity being highlighted as the result of press from geocaching, so they often want to distance themselves from the issues that obviously impact both groups, such as environmental impact.

 

Another irony is an open letterboxing web site and mailing list. Come on, if you want to party like its 1899, shouldn't you be having town meetings and mail each other via horse courier?

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Try to think of the reverse, if a letterboxer decided to put a letterbox in with your cache spot without asking you first...you'd be pissed off!

.. :P

I'm not sure this is true. I don't detect an anti-letterboxing sentiment among geocachers. In fact, there is a type of cache dedicated in a cross breed geocache/letterbox hybrid.

 

So, I imagine most geocachers may very well welcome a sharing of a spot.

 

Edit: That is, of course, before Briansnat posted some of those comments above. :laughing:

Edited by Pantalaimon
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wow you guys really hate Letterboxing :blink: you cant generalize (sp?) Letterboxers as all geo haters same for Geos, I'am a LBer and I like Geo too. why can't we all get along?

Where'd you get that from? Actually geocachers have rarely had anything bad to say about LBers, but many LBers have long denigrated geocachers. What you see here are responses to my earlier post of examples of what letterboxers are saying about geocachers in their forums.

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Personally? Share the space with the letterboxer and let folks know not to use the letterbox. Unlike the letterbox placer you did the right thing and got permission.

I'd email the letterboxer and find out what's up.

 

Jeremy's idea of shairing space is actually pretty good. That way there is no confusion. One conainter says "Geocache" and the other is the letterbox. You can have your stash note explain. Because the cacher/letterboxer will have both in hand they won't sign the wrong one thinking they found the other. Having both in hand tells them something is up. We have a letterbox locally that is EXACTLY where the clue for the geocache says it is. Meanwhile the cache is 20' over. Lots of confusion.

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I think in general letterboxers are in it more for the cleverness of the hunt (clues, orienteering, etc.). From that perspective, geocaching with it's electronic devices would seem to be childs play. However, there are many reasons for geocaching. For me, it's to visit parks and places I didn't know about. The geocache itself is secondary. Or at least 1.5ary. Other people enjoy puzzle caches - you know the score.

 

It is this difference in perspective that I think fuels the misunderstanding, especially when geocachers who are ignorant of letterboxing mistakingly take the stamp out of a letterbox. I can see how that would lead to annoyance at the least. The problem is that letterboxers need to be more proactive in protecting their investment now that geocaching is here to stay. Just like anything, you can roll with the punches and mark your stamp as not a trade item, or you can take a blind uppercut to the chin and lose trying to be a tough-guy. It kinda stinks that they need to adjust (more clearly identifying letterboxes/stamps) to a different sport, but either that, or they have to educate every geocacher in the world. Were I a letterboxer, I'd realize which one is more practical and deal with it. Someday something may 'interfere' with geocaching and geocachers will have to adjust. If I'm still around then, I'll suck it up and deal, even if it is an annoyance.

Edited by New England n00b
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Perhaps (and I'm just hypothesizing here) since Geocaching does have an "entrance fee" of $150 or so for the GPSr, maybe some of the letterboxers are a bit green with envy, especially if they can't afford one? I mean, let's face it, people who have to make due with less tend to "look down on" or belittle those who have more in order to make themselves feel better. It's classic psychology. And speaking of more, I checked, and there are just under 300 letterboxes in all of PA. There are 305 GeoCaches within 20 miles of my house (near Harrisburg). So I guess there's another reason they have to be envious. I barely have to leave home to enjoy my hobby, they'll need plane tickets after a month to continue with theirs.

 

I say we all just get along. And if they don't want to play nice, we do it anyway. Be the bigger person. After all, both games are fun, ours is just waaaaaay more popular. :blink:

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since Geocaching does have an "entrance fee" of $150 or so for the GPSr, maybe some of the letterboxers are a bit green with envy, especially if they can't afford one? I mean, let's face it, people who have to make due with less tend to "look down on" or belittle those who have more in order to make themselves feel better.

 

Nah, I think they really feel superior.

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Where'd you get that from?

here

Quickly now, everyone bash the letterboxers before this thread goes off topic and gets locked 

 

YEA THEY SUCK AT GIVING GOOD COORDS!

 

and Here

Its a good thing there's no letterboxes in my area, I'd be tempted to plunder them all right now

 

are some derect -comments and you guys just don't seem to like LBers from what I'v read:ph34r:

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Where'd you get that from?

here

Quickly now, everyone bash the letterboxers before this thread goes off topic and gets locked 

 

YEA THEY SUCK AT GIVING GOOD COORDS!

 

and Here

Its a good thing there's no letterboxes in my area, I'd be tempted to plunder them all right now

 

are some derect -comments and you guys just don't seem to like LBers from what I'v read:ph34r:

Those came in response to my earlier post from letterboxers that were contemptuous toward geocachers. There was no animosity from this end before that. Guess I'm just an instigator . :)

Edited by briansnat
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I think in general letterboxers are in it more for the cleverness of the hunt

And the sad thing is that they don't go find a cacher to explain our sport to them. There's quite a bit to be said for some of the hunts many of us have done. These people (like many people in things other than caching/boxing) dislike what they don't understand and don't try to understand it, so they bash when they can and instead of educating themselves (and us), they say what they want so that when more people get into their sport, they bash us too, because they think they should.

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