Is This An Inappropriate Idea?

[RastaDave]

I've tossed around the idea of placing a cache consisting of a CD case with a dozen or so CD-ROMs with assorted MP3 files on it. Visitors would then take a loaded MP3 disc as long as they left one of their own (genre/artist wouldn't have to be stated, it could be a surprise).

 

I know there are two sides firmly entrenched in their views as far as sharing music goes, but I though this would be a nifty idea (maybe it might turn someone on to some new style of music). Thoughts?

[BassoonPilot]

I'd have no problem with it if you"ll tell me where I can steal a portion of your income.

[RastaDave]

Maybe I should have said "Any thoughts? Just don't be an a** about it".

I doubt Mozart would mind.

Edited September 14, 2004 by RastaDave

[BassoonPilot]

Maybe I should have said "Any thoughts? Just don't be an a** about it".

I'm serious.

[+flask]

it's a nifty idea as long as the recordings traded are legal. i don't support stealing, either.

[+mogolloyd]

Too lazy to look but I think pirated software/ music is not allowed.

[+BlueDeuce]

Yep, it would have to be the original copy to be legal. (Copyright legal, I'm not referring to cache legal)

Edited September 14, 2004 by Elf Danach

[+Team Tigger International]

Its a Great Idea , there are several CD exchange type caches . Most of the Cd's in these caches have been properly purchased . As far as MP3's go , I know they can be legally downloaded and recorded as well , most for a small charge per song. People have shared and exchanged music for centuries now . It started with the cassette recorder , and the vhs tapes for sharing movies or recording your favorites. I think that most everyone has shared music they have purchased with friends.

Star

Team Tigger International

[BassoonPilot]

... People have shared and exchanged music for centuries now . It started with the cassette recorder ...

Wow. I had no idea. I'm older than I thought Actually, prior to the invention of photocopiers and reel-to-reel recorders, the "sharing of music" was a non-issue. The problem is less than 50 years old. It's true that the invention of the cassette tape recorder was considered at first not to be a major threat ... it was foolishly assumed that people would rather buy (and listen to) high fidelity recordings than the "low fidelity" cassettes offer. But apparently, the public couldn't hear the difference. And of course, technology never "stands still" ...

Edited September 14, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[+Team Tigger International]

Didn't mean to offend anyone , perhaps someone just got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ?

[Mushtang]

I say go for it! Unlike the rude poster above I don't think that trading MP3s is the same as stealing a portion of someone's income, but since that isn't the topic I won't get into that argument.

 

Trading music is great, and I'd love the chance to be exposed to something different. If it turns out to be something I enjoy I'd want to buy more of it.

 

However, there's no way I'd ever put a disk in my computer that I found in a cache. The disks you stock the cache with may all be clean, but the next person might not be as careful. And I mean "clean" in both senses, viruses as well as dirt. Both can really ruin you computer's day.

 

I guess I'd be willing to wipe the CD down to get rid of any dirt, and then play it in my car's MP3 player. As far as I know there are no viruses that can affect the car.

 

Definitely go for it!!!

[RastaDave]

Any music I copy has come from my local library. I have never done napster/kazaa or any other site like that. I have about 4,000 CDs (used to work in radio). About 75% are bands/people you have never heard of.

 

This isn't a Napster substitute. It's a box under a dead tree in a forest somewhere. Sheesh!

[+BlueDeuce]

Copyrighted material is protected from being copied and freely shared. Do you honestly think the delivery method makes a difference? Do you understand the definition of copyright? I think you do since you have to ask if it's appropriate.

 

The shared item has to be the purchased copy.

Edited September 14, 2004 by Elf Danach

[+Cool Librarian]

You know, I remember the days when I would have the cassette player on my "boom box" poised and ready to tape when I heard a favorite song come on the radio - and I'm sure I was not alone in that.

 

And, hello, can you say "mix tape?" Perhaps this was more of a girl thing, but I'm sure some of you can recall spending hours taping off the radio or other tapes in an attempt to create that perfect tape for your boyfriend/girlfriend/best friend.

 

Those were the days.

 

Now, simply because Mp3 is computer based and accessible to lots and lots of people, it's a crime that has lead to the feds actually busting 12 year olds. Ridiculous.

 

Yes, I am fully aware of copyright laws - more than most people probably - I'm a librarian. But, IMHO, the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Bootlegging music has done much to promote lesser-known bands into stars. Case in point - it was a copy of a CD that got me interested in my favorite band - a band, at the time, who had a small cult following. I was hooked, and subsequently have spent hundreds of dollars over the past few years on CDs, concerts, and merchandise. That little-known band is still an alternative favorite, but they now sell out arenas all over the world.

 

So, I say go for it. If someone puts a burned CD in your cache, there is really no way to tell if it's "legal" or not, since there are many legal sites for downloading music - both FREE (yes, free in some cases) and for a fee. Check the GC guidelines and then follow your gut - it's your cache.

 

All of the sanctimonius people who have never done anything off color in their entire lives can skip it.

 

And BTW, what is up with the unbelievable snarkiness on this board the past few days?

[+D & K]

Who says they weren't legal downloads? I have never seen a certificate of authentication for a legal download, I could be wrong......

[BassoonPilot]

Yes, I am fully aware of copyright laws - more than most people probably - I'm a librarian. But, IMHO, the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

Remember when free concerts were regularly held in libraries? When your kids regularly attended musical/theatrical programs in school? Remember when performances in hospitals and retirement homes were weekly (or more frequent) events? How about those free concerts that were held every week under the stars in the parks? Ever wonder what paid for a significant portion of them?

 

That's right ... the sale of recorded music. Wonder why there are so few programs like that today, or why when there are such programs, there are only 1 or 2 performers?

[virgo91967]

You know, I remember the days when I would have the cassette player on my "boom box" poised and ready to tape when I heard a favorite song come on the radio - and I'm sure I was not alone in that.

 

And I rember the record indutry throwing a hissy fit over the recordability of cassettes as well

 

And, hello, can you say "mix tape?" Perhaps this was more of a girl thing, but I'm sure some of you can recall spending hours taping off the radio or other tapes in an attempt to create that perfect tape for your boyfriend/girlfriend/best friend.

 

Those were the days.

 

Now, simply because Mp3 is computer based and accessible to lots and lots of people, it's a crime that has lead to the feds actually busting 12 year olds. Ridiculous.

 

Yes, I am fully aware of copyright laws - more than most people probably - I'm a librarian. But, IMHO, the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Bootlegging music has done much to promote lesser-known bands into stars. Case in point - it was a copy of a CD that got me interested in my favorite band - a band, at the time, who had a small cult following. I was hooked, and subsequently have spent hundreds of dollars over the past few years on CDs, concerts, and merchandise. That little-known band is still an alternative favorite, but they now sell out arenas all over the world.

 

So, I say go for it. If someone puts a burned CD in your cache, there is really no way to tell if it's "legal" or not, since there are many legal sites for downloading music - both FREE (yes, free in some cases) and for a fee. Check the GC guidelines and then follow your gut - it's your cache.

 

Ditto

 

All of the sanctimonius people who have never done anything off color in their entire lives can skip it.

 

again, ditto

 

And BTW, what is up with the unbelievable snarkiness on this board the past few days?

 

O/T: My observation that 'snarkiness' is a way of life in MOST of the Groundspeak forums

 

---'Nuff said

Edited September 14, 2004 by virgo91967

[+D & K]

I wonder if it is because they are more interested in their $$$ than their music.

 

What's next you can't sing their song in the shower without paying royalties?

[+BlueDeuce]

If someone asks me if they can share copied music with the general public, I’m going to tell them ‘No, there are laws against that.’ If they respond with “oh come’ on what’s the problem?’ They are probably going to get the snarky response of ‘If you don’t like the answer that you knew you were going to get, why did you bother to ask?’

They asked for my thoughts and they got them, sanctimonious or not.

[BassoonPilot]

Wonder why there are so few programs like that today, or why when there are such programs, there are only 1 or 2 performers?

I wonder if it is because they are more interested in their $$$ than their music.

Considering that the people doing those types of performances are typically working for 1/2, or less, of the regular rate, I would doubt that to be the case.

[+D & K]

Considering that the people doing those types of performances are typically working for 1/2, or less, of the regular rate, I would doubt that to be the case.

Exactly my point, if they were getting 100% or more of the going rate there would be more of them. But ask them to do something for free and what do you end up with...... very little.....

 

Sorry this has gotten off topic.

 

I would agree that you should not be trading stolen merchandise in a cache. The only thing is how would you determine if an MP3 on a blank CD is stolen or not?

[+tirediron]

If someone asks me if they can share copied music with the general public, I’m going to tell them ‘No, there are laws against that.’  <Snipped>

Ummm.. I don't think your blanket statement is quite appropriate ED... a quick Google of the topic reveals literally thousands of copyright-free songs available for download. In addition, there is more than one "kind" of copywite. BTW, ever bought or sold a book with a damaged/repaired/missing cover? That's a copywrite violation too.

 

The whole "It's okay it's not hurting anyone" debate is not something I am going to get into... If the music is copyright-free, or licenced for free distributiion than legally there's nothing wrong with it. Is there a GC.com rule, don't recall one, but I would double check.

 

Edit: Early morning typos..

Edited September 14, 2004 by tirediron

[+BlueDeuce]

If someone asks me if they can share copied music with the general public, I’m going to tell them ‘No, there are laws against that.’  <Snipped>

Ummm.. I don't think your blanket statement is quite appropriate ED... a quick Google of the topic reveals literally thousands of copywrite-free songs available for download. In addition, there is more than one "kind" of copywite. BTW, ever bought or sold a book with a damaged/repaired/missing cover? That's a copywrite violation too.

 

The whole "It's okay it's not hurting anyone" debate is not something I am going to get into... If the music is copywrite-free, or licenced for free distributiion than legally there's nothing wrong with it. Is there a GC.com rule, don't recall one, but I would double check.

I stand corrected. I was referring to copies of copyrighted material.

[BassoonPilot]

Exactly my point, if they were getting 100% or more of the going rate there would be more of them. But ask them to do something for free and what do you end up with...... very little.....

Fair point. How many days are you going to work for 1/2 pay or free this year?

 

I believe such a cache would not be approved; if I come upon these items in caches, I will trade for them and destroy them.

[+flask]

ok, i'd like to speak AS AN ARTIST: every time a well-meaning person tells me that they loved my work so much that they made a copy of the disc to make for their friend or brother or neighbor, i think : "great. that's another $10 i'll never see."

 

if you borrow a friend's copy of my work, great. if you sing it to your kids, great. if you make an unauthorized copy of it and keep it or give it away, you are depriving me of my income.

 

simply because my work is in the arts does not mean that i should donate my services so people can enjoy it and more than your banker or butcher or bookkeeper should have to donate their work.

 

if i GIVE you my work or DONATE my time, you get it for free. if you take it without paying for it or without my permission, you are stealing my work, which reduces my income, which is small enough as it is.

[+Mr Smiles]

RastaDave says he obtained the CD's lawfully. There is no other issue(s) in this thread other than "snarkiness and sanctimoniusness" and with THOSE one might question the appropriateness.

 

CD and other recorded music "swapped" in a cache is a great idea. My bigger concern might be that you will get a bunch of McToys swapped for good music.

It will be a popular cache. The swag will be enjoyed by the caching community long after the initial discovery. Some of the songs will remind them of the caching experience of that day. It would be a cache that I would visit often.

 

My vote: Beyond appropriate!!!

 

Mr Smiles

[+D & K]

Fair point. How many days are you going to work for 1/2 pay or free this year?

 

Tell ya what, if I were a business owner I would work as much as required, paid, 1/2 price, or free. Just to keep my name out in the public eye, and that is exactly why you see tons of free downloads, small bands trying to get their name out there and get recognition.

 

As an individual, I donate my time and some of my earnings to worthy causes. If I became a MULTI millionaire I would continue to do so.

 

It seems as though some of our MULTI millionaire "artists" have gotten very large heads (partly as a result of the consumer) and have forgotten that charity is noble.

 

Thanks for listening. I'm finished

 

dik

[Keystone]

{snip} I believe such a cache would not be approved.... {snip}

BassoonPilot is correct. The reviewer should insist upon a cache description that encourages only the sharing of legally obtained recordings.

 

That being the case, it serves little purpose to debate the ethics of making unauthorized recordings. Please be sure to stay on-topic.

[+tirediron]

[snip] . if you sing it to your kids, great. [/snip]

Mmmmmmmmm not totally true... So archane and convoluted is copyright law now that in fact, depending on how your recording was released, and through which label, the singing of the entire song or repeated singing could constitute a violation!

 

In summary, to the OP... save yourself a lot of grief and go for the McToys!

[+D & K]

Even though this strayed from the orginal topic, it was nice to get other opinions.

 

Freedom....ya gotta love it!!

[+Abby's Family]

Any music I copy has come from my local library. I have never done napster/kazaa or any other site like that. I have about 4,000 CDs (used to work in radio). About 75% are bands/people you have never heard of.

 

This isn't a Napster substitute. It's a box under a dead tree in a forest somewhere. Sheesh!

Not to be nit-picky here, but a couple of interesting point.

 

1) Our library has 'do not copy' stickers on cds,etc to remind people of copyright laws

2) If you got the mp3 from napster or the library, if there is a copyright - whats the real difference?

3) Whats the difference between sharing it via a box in the woods or on napster other than possible volume... So its ok to give to a couple people, but not 100? Where is the line?

 

Now.. I can't say that I'm 100% clean either.. But I personally draw the line between copying something for myself and intentionally causing a spread.

 

I love the idea of caches that promote better trades. I just don't buy that sharing copyrighted music is 'right' just because its in a box.

 

The other concern I see here would be what bad press this can bring to geocaching.

Where to draw the line? Its ok to trade 'stolen' (by copyright) music.... Does that mean its ok to trade stolen jewerly? How about drugs?

 

I'm being a little dramatic here, but we have a tough enough time with caches gettin muggled or not allowed w/o making things worse.

[+RichardMoore]

Yes, I am fully aware of copyright laws - more than most people probably - I'm a librarian. But, IMHO, the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

Remember when free concerts were regularly held in libraries? When your kids regularly attended musical/theatrical programs in school? Remember when performances in hospitals and retirement homes were weekly (or more frequent) events? How about those free concerts that were held every week under the stars in the parks? Ever wonder what paid for a significant portion of them?

 

That's right ... the sale of recorded music. Wonder why there are so few programs like that today, or why when there are such programs, there are only 1 or 2 performers?

Oddly enough, throughout the summer I have had to chose between two free concerts to go to on Sunday evening. And those were just the ones that I knew about. On Friday evenings another park hosted free concerts. There are also concerts held during the winter that are free or charge a nominal fee to limit attendance (you can't fit as many people inside as you can outside.)

But if you look at who is playing in the free concerts, you are not getting the nationally know musicians that have a large portion of their income based on royalties, you are getting the local musicians who are paid by the performance and may also sell their CD's on the side.

 

Back on topic:

My concern would be the lack of control on the CD. I don't know that much about the whole thing, but is it possible to pick up a virus while downloading the music and burning the CD?

[+BlueDeuce]

I think Keystone Approver settled the matter.

 

On to the next topic!

[+DrMomentum]

I'd love to come across a cache and at the same time discover a new artist. I used to listen to a cool radio station online before they shut it down for what I believe were Digital Millenium Copyright Act reasons. I was buying CDs like nuts--more than when I had been a teenager.

 

Since the crackdown I haven't bought one CD. That web station is no longer on the air. I don't hear much new music that interests me and I'm disgusted enough by the money grubbing and "example making" of the music industry that I am unmotivated to give them my money just so they can pass a few cents along to the artist.

 

Anywho, if I found a CD in a cache I would definitely play it on my MP3 CD player. If I found a new artist, I would be ecstatic. I would benefit and the new artist would benefit when I bought their CD and when I told my friends about it. We pay for our music, but sometimes we need to find it first.

 

It seems like a win/win to me.

 

I love music. If I'm finding music inside a rotten log, I get to combine two passions.

 

-JP

[+Cool Librarian]

So, there you have it, Rasta Dave:

 

Make sure you encourage only legally obtained music be placed in your cache. After that, it's really out of your hands, as you have absolutely no way of knowing how ANY (and that includes original copies) of the music was originally obtained.

 

We have a cache or two like that in my neck of the woods, and they are very popular. Good luck!

 

I don't know that much about the whole thing, but is it possible to pick up a virus while downloading the music and burning the CD?

 

To answer your question - yes, it is very possible to pick up a virus when downloading ANY program/file. When using the internet, always be sure to use a good virus program on your computer. An excellent FREE one can be found at www.grisoft.com - I have used it for years and it has stopped several PC infections. It's a free download with free updates as often as you want/need.

 

We pay for our music, but sometimes we need to find it first.

 

My sentiments exactly. A true music lover/fan will support their favorite artists, regardless of the availability of illegal downloads or copies. A friend burned me a copy of a CD by yet another new artist, and since I liked it, I went out and bought the CD - the copy is now my "car copy." I also shelled out to see him in concert after he "hit it big." AND, bonus, he just played a FREE concert in Boston - pretty cool.

Edited September 14, 2004 by Cool Librarian

[+Robespierre]

I really appreciate your thoughts here, and trying to be creative, and sharing, but let me mention two thoughts:

1. This week my local library has a basket of $2 cd's which probably aren't worth that much, but they are legal. The local music stores usually have the same (just like WalMart sells old movies cheaper). Not sure trading that calibre of music is worth it, but it would be legal.

 

2. The copyright laws, as applied to music, are so wild today that it is technically illegal for a restaurant to play a radio as part of their business. Restaurants do, in out-of-the-way towns, but it can be serious if they are caught. They must buy a service. Churches can not legally put the words to a chorus on paper or overhead for the congregation to sing.

[virgo91967]

look, if they didn't want us to copy it, then it shouldn't be 'copyright'... Should be 'copywrong'

[jedihound]

I've put some copies of live, legally-traded shows of my favorite bands in a few caches out here. I think it's a great idea, and would love to come across some myself...

 

It's as simple as saying only original retail copies, or freely distributed material, no?

 

And worrying about a virus from the CD? Are any of you worried that the ammo box will be booby-trapped when you open it? I wouldn't be getting into geocaching if there are real concerns about other geocachers like this...

 

There are 678 artists currently sharing recordings here:

 

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree.php

[ju66l3r]

ok, i'd like to speak AS AN ARTIST: every time a well-meaning person tells me that they loved my work so much that they made a copy of the disc to make for their friend or brother or neighbor, i think : "great. that's another $10 i'll never see."

That's just a pessimistic view. What if through a series of trades from a CD cache, like the one Rasta suggests, I were to find a CD in a local cache that had your songs on it. I listened and found it agreeable, so I went to the website on the disc and purchased a full copy of the album and maybe even an album or two that were older. That's $20-30 you never would have seen...except that I heard your music from a cache. Of course, with clean, non-swag copies of your music in the mail to me, I can put the demo disc back into another cache for someone else to hear (until BassonPilot destroys it).

 

Much as with *anything* in life, there are benefits and downfalls to music copying. The gigantic Strawberries music store hasn't put up the "For Rent" signs and the Tower Records on Newbury Street in Boston isn't closing shop tomorrow just because Rasta puts out a "please, legal CD swaps only" cache.

 

If you're keeping count, add another "just do it" vote from me.

 

...oh crap, I just busted trademark in a copyright thread....*now* what do I do?

[+flask]

That's just a pessimistic view. What if through a series of trades from a CD cache, like the one Rasta suggests, I were to find a CD in a local cache that had your songs on it. I listened and found it agreeable, so I went to the website on the disc and purchased a full copy of the album and maybe even an album or two that were older. That's $20-30 you never would have seen...except that I heard your music from a cache. Of course, with clean, non-swag copies of your music in the mail to me, I can put the demo disc back into another cache for someone else to hear (until BassonPilot destroys it).

 

no, it's not pessimistic. i actually have no objection to excerpts of my work or even whole songs excerpted from larger collections being passed on.

 

what busts my butt is that people who LOVE my work can't love it enough to BUY THEIR OWN COPY! instead, they make a copy of my commercially available recording. and then they tell me that they did it because they like it so much.

 

i regularly leave copies of my work in versions not commercially available in caches. i regularly leave copies of live performances that were never intended for public release. i don't expect you to run out and buy my work, but neither do i want you to decide you like it enough to find a copy of what is commercially available and then make an illegal copy of it.

 

it is perfectly possible for you to share recordings of my work and introduce it to other people without taking money from my pocket.

 

but yes, chalk me up as in favor of a music trade. legal copies, which, as has been discussed quite nicely, are available without much difficulty.

[+bigredmed]

Gettting back to the original post's topic.

 

The idea is OK as long as the CD's are legal. (You bought one and are trading it).

 

The idea is flawed though in that you may put a bunch of CD's in that are good.

The cachers that follow, may well trade CD for CD, but they may trade an AOL disk for a copy of Rust Never Sleeps or the White Album. If you can stomach seeing a cache full of good CD's be changed into a box full of pan flute and Slim Whitman CD's, then give it a shot.

 

Remember, do it with legal CD's. People work hard to make these recordings and they should get paid for their work.

[+flask]

HEY! i have an album where i do slim whitman covers on pan flute! what are you trying to say here?

[+Stunod]

HEY! i have an album where i do slim whitman covers on pan flute! what are you trying to say here?

Do you pay royalties?

[+flask]

it's called a "compulsory license". and yes, the agreement invloves royalties. duh.

[+CO Admin]

OoooooooooooooooooKay

 

The Professior made his point about this thread now Ill make mine.

 

This Thread is now completely off topic. I am closing it for that reason. If you would like to continue this thread please do so in the Off Topic forum.