Clarification

[+nfa]

Hi,

 

I'm not sure if people have always griped about the workings of gc.com on the forums, but I think that some of the recent gripes may stem from what I believe is a widely held misconception about gc.com.

 

Geocaching.com is not a participatory democracy, it is a benevolent dictatorship.

 

Wait, before you start the flamethrowers, let me explain.

 

Jeremy has recently asked forum readers to comment on such tings as cache sizes, micro-cache designation, and other topics. There have been lots of reponses, to say the least. These actions may have promoted the belief that gc.com users (paying or non-paying) have a say in how gc.com is operated on a day-to-day basis.

 

This is no more the truth for gc.com than it would for people who frequent other for-profit businesses (imagine telling your cell phone company to add/change their features, and expecting them to do it). Members can certainly "Vote" with their wallets by taking their business elsewhere (non-paying users are "abstaining" in this metaphor), but should not feel they have the right to cry out for change or justice or faster servers.

 

I go through the same thing each year at the beginning of the school year, explaining to my classes that while I appreciate and respect their input and opinions, the final decision is mine (hence - not a participatory democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship).

 

Just my thoughts after cruising some forums recently,

 

nfa

[+Robespierre]

This is no more the truth for gc.com than it would for people who frequent other for-profit businesses (imagine telling your cell phone company to add/change their features, and expecting them to do it). Members can certainly "Vote" with their wallets by taking their business elsewhere (non-paying users are "abstaining" in this metaphor), but should not feel they have the right to cry out for change or justice or faster servers.

Imagine your phone company giving you an OT forum...or ANY forum. Yes, and we get the idea that we get a vote. We get one vote...go or stay - it's a binary vote.

 

You're right on with students. Some of them come from homes where the parents run things just that way...or when I managed a restaurant, too. They expect to have input into the daily management. Perhaps that's the environment one recent poster came from? Two of my famous managerial quotes, "Your time is paid for," and, "You don't get to vote."

[Dino Hunters]

Biggest difference between GC.COM and the phone company is that the phone company puts up it's own cell towers. Students did not build there own classrooms and schools.

 

I believe that the feeling of "ownership", be it appropriate or not, comes from the fact that in GC.COM business, the users are the ones building the physical components of the game. If GC.COM built and placed all the caches this feeling may not exist.

 

disclaimer:

 

....and so that my intent in this posting is clear, I am not commenting here on any GC.COM policy or guidline, only on the subject of where I believe the feeling of "ownership" may be coming from....just a thought.

[GrandpaCannon]

Geocaching.com is not a participatory democracy, it is a benevolent dictatorship.

 

I love this quote. I tell my kids the same type of thing but I never stated it this well. Can I use your phrase with my children?

 

On the school thing I remember in 8th grade US History when we learned about Congress' power to impeach the President; some students tried to impeach the teacher. I remember him kindly informing us that we were not Congress and that he was not the President and that the classroom is not a democracy but a dictatorship and guess who the dictator is (big grin from Mr. Sumner)

Edited September 13, 2004 by Cannonlaw

[+flask]

 

I go through the same thing each year at the beginning of the school year, explaining to my classes that while I appreciate and respect their input and opinions, the final decision is mine (hence - not a participatory democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship).

 

hey, that's what i tell mine.

[tlg]

Geocaching.com is not a participatory democracy, it is a benevolent dictatorship.

 

I'd hardly call it a dictatorship; it's a monopoly if we must provide a label. And, despite your assertation that gc.com users have no say in the day to day operations, I have to disagree. If enough paying customers decided they didn't like the way things were run they could affect change by withholding their renewals, (unlike a dictatorship, or your classroom).

 

Not that that's going to happen because -aside from the lime green- everything seems to be running well enough for everyone's liking.

[+Robespierre]

aside from the lime green- everything seems to be running well enough

Is that cross-posting?

[+Enspyer]

 

I go through the same thing each year at the beginning of the school year, explaining to my classes that while I appreciate and respect their input and opinions, the final decision is mine (hence - not a participatory democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship).

 

hey, that's what i tell mine.

The GC.com voting reminds me of what we did in Global History today- we made rules for the teacher. Obviously the teacher doesn't have to follow them; teachers don't go to detention! It makes people feel like they have a say. The one difference is that I have to go to school, but I go to GC.com because I want to!

[+EraSeek]

Total agreement NFA. I'm often amazed at some of the asumptions of self-importance that some people make. They expect not only a pure democracy on this site, but "their" pure democracy.

[+bamageek]

If enough paying customers decided they didn't like the way things were run they could affect change by withholding their renewals, (unlike a dictatorship, or your classroom).

 

Not that that's going to happen because -aside from the lime green- everything seems to be running well enough for everyone's liking.

It seems like lots of folks have very different views as to how things should and should not work. Based on the forum posts it seems some folks aren't quite as diplomatic when expressing their views than others. A lot of that is just our nature I guess.

 

Keep in mind this site is a business and we are the customers. The company leaders have the responsability of ensuring that our requests are worth the effort of implementing and most importantly does not result in a negative impact on a majority of the customers. Just like any other business, if we don't like the way they run the business we can always go somewhere else.

 

Personally, I'm very pleased with the site. I think that the folks at Groundspeak have been very customer oriented and are trying their best to please us. In the year that I've been here I've seen several significant new features added. I've also noticed that the number of cachers and caches seems to have grown at a tremendous rate. Just this year the number of caches hidden in Alabama and the surrounding states has almost doubled! Thats a lot of growth and I think the folks at gc have done a remarkable job of trying to keep up!

 

I say keep up the good work and don't let a few negative posts discourage you!

[+briansnat]

Keep this in perspective. In the beginning the caches were listed on Usenet, then one guy started listing them on his website. Jeremy came along and said that he could host the caches and develop a more robust site and GC.COM was born.

 

When the "keys" to geocaching were given to Jeremy, a lot of people didn't envision that they were making him the sole arbiter of the sport. Once people realized that,they were not thrilled and many early forum posts reflect this discordance. Out of this Navicache was born.

 

Jeremey has done a great job with this website and promoting this sport, but he does have a level of responsibility - a charge to keep. He made some promises when he took on this responsibility and he will be held to them. So he's not a dictator at all, but rather he's a CEO who must deliver a product that will appeal to his customers..

 

If he doesn't serve this community to its satisfaction, people will go elsewhere. And I'm not necessarialy taking Navicache. Letterboxing has survived for over 100 years without a centrailized website and there is no reason geocaching can't do the same.

[+Alan2]

A smart businessman listens to his customers' complaints if he wants to keep them for long.

[+Mopar]

A smart businessman listens to his customers' complaints if he wants to keep them for long.

An even smarter businessman knows there is no way to please everyone all the time, and to try doing so will run you into the ground.

He also knows that the popular saying "the customer is always right" is a crock of doots. Quite often, the customer is dead wrong. If all your customers knew how to run your business better then you, they wouldnt be your customers, they would be your competitors.

[+5¢]

A smart businessman listens to his customers' complaints  if he wants to keep them for long.

An even smarter businessman knows there is no way to please everyone all the time, and to try doing so will run you into the ground.

He also knows that the popular saying "the customer is always right" is a crock of doots. Quite often, the customer is dead wrong. If all your customers knew how to run your business better then you, they wouldnt be your customers, they would be your competitors.

And a lot of business have gone under because they didn't listen to the customers.

[+Runaround]

The problem is that someone will complain about something and they can easily find 3 others in the forums to agree with them. They suddenly think they have a mandate to demand change and get upset when they are shot down.

 

It's like a PETA protest outside a fast food joint. They might actually persuade a customer or two to avoid shopping there. However, the majority enjoy their extra tasty crispy and shop there anyway. The store manager might be annoyed by the protest but if he doesn't see a noticable reduction in the days sales, he isn't to concerned.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Hm. I would come at this thread with more passion if Jeremy seemed high handed or heavy handed -- if he, for example, referred to this as a benevolent dictatorship. From what I've seen, though, he seems to run the site with a pretty deft touch, so no complaints.

 

But it's absurd to argue that the game is all about the referee. The game is about the players, and the referee is given the ultimate power because it's the only way to keep every game from devolving into fisticuffs. We, the players, cede him this power before the fact, by common consent.

 

A gripe is a clumsily-worded suggestion. Those seeking to make a happy little buck off their customers do well to listen to them -- even the stupid suggestions don't hurt to read. And I'll take people making suggestions -- even whiny ones -- over people running around telling others to shut up and exposing their fuzzy bellies to the Leader any day.

[+Robespierre]

exposing their fuzzy bellies to the Leader any day.

Now there's a picture.

[+Alan2]

A smart businessman listens to his customers' complaints  if he wants to keep them for long.

An even smarter businessman knows there is no way to please everyone all the time, and to try doing so will run you into the ground.

He also knows that the popular saying "the customer is always right" is a crock of doots. Quite often, the customer is dead wrong. If all your customers knew how to run your business better then you, they wouldnt be your customers, they would be your competitors.

Of course customers can be frequently "nuts" and certainly I didn't say the owner does everything they say. But he should listen and accomodate when possible. It's often the customer who knows what's wrong with the business than the business owner. Many owners give flyers to their customer to rate them and give feedback. How would an owner know where he needs improvement if he's not getting feedback? Many owners lose customers and don't have the foggiest idea why. They never ask.

 

Also, the business plan for geocaching is "new" in that its a new sport. It's evolvoing and how the game is played or will be played is important to be fed back. So it's good for the "referee" and the players.

[BassoonPilot]

Also, the business plan for geocaching is "new" in that its a new sport. It's evolvoing and how the game is played or will be played is important to be fed back.

Does this mean geocaching will be subject to the recall?

[+Sagefox]

...When the "keys" to geocaching were given to Jeremy, a lot of people didn't envision  that they were making him the sole  arbiter of the sport. Once  people realized that,they were not thrilled and many early forum posts reflect this  discordance.  Out of this Navicache was born...

Which supports my personal belief that people who have problems with geocaching.com are a small minority of the active players.

 

I believe that it is unfortunate that the forums are where staff gets most of their feedback. My only concern with this sport is that the staff might get burned out by a very vocal minority. I hope they are compensated well for being subjected, not only to some of the abuse that goes down here, but for the reams of pissy little concerns that constantly dribble through.

 

This game is just not that difficult to participate in. This sport is easy, it is fun, we get to use billions of dollars in technology and gc.com has created a GREAT web site for us to play the game. People did not "make" gc.com staff the sole arbiter of the sport but it was gc.com that took it to the "next' level. No one else did that.

 

It mystifies me that people choose to get worked up about lime green or demand a "black-white" description of what "wow" is? Why not just go out and play the game? "The Hunt" is where the action is. Many people choose to make difficult something that is really very easy to do.

 

Edit: typos

Edited September 14, 2004 by Team Sagefox

[+AuntieWeasel]

I believe that it is unfortunate that the forums are where staff gets most of their feedback.  My only concern with this sport is that the staff might get burned out by a very vocal minority. I hope they are compensated well for being subjected not only to some of the abuse that goes down here but for the reams of pissy little concerns that constantly dribble through.

"The staff" appear to be compensated to their own satisfaction, one way or another. The complaints are from fellow users, and the gist seems to be, "why can't you shut up and be as satisfied as I am?"

 

Which is as pushy a position as any.