What Is Public Property?

[+CosmicRay & Myrtle]

Hi,

 

I'm new to Geocaching. I've found about half a dozen caches and have hidden my first one (I know the area it is in well, and this question doesn't pertain to it.) I want to be a good member of the Geocaching community, but I'm a little unsure how.

 

I'm a little unsure just what public property is (in the USA) and what is the standard procedure for working with it. Here are some of my questions:

 

First... I found a cache the other day a few feet off a sand road. There was the road, then the ditch, then an electric pole, and the cache was just behind the pole. A few feet past that was the edge of a private field. That brought up some questions in my mind: Was the cache on public property (where no permission would be needed?) Would it still have been right up to the edge of the field? Would it be any different if instead of a field, there was a residence? Business? Parking lot? Abandoned lot? Would the lack of a power pole make a difference? (Could a cache be hidden in any ditch next to a roadway?) How close to the roadway must one be to be on public property? Is there a difference if the road is maintained by a city, county, state, or the federal government?

 

Next, I'm curious about parks. I'm thinking here of city and county parks, and I'm including in this other park-like things (such as bike trails, river walks, etc.) that are traditionally managed by city or county park departments. Barring information to the countrary (such as known ordinances or published information), is it safe to assume that one can place a cache on such a location without permission if done responsibly? What about other city or country-owned public-access property -- town squares, meridians along streets, etc? What about privately-owned, public-access parks? (Around this area, there are several free public-access parks owned by nonprofit historical societies and the like). I'm assuming I'd need permission for those -- correct? Is there any difference for land that is government-controlled but not normally a place where pedestrians venture? (For instance, a found a cache buried in some thick brush between a flood wall and a river -- government land surely, no "no tresspassing" signs, but kosher?)

 

I've also seen a number of caches listed in cemeteries (though I haven't tried to find any of them yet.) I know that there are both public and private cemeteries. Around here, there are some old abandoned cemeteries out in the middle of the country where the ownership is, at best, unclear -- and would probably require hours of research to ascertain. There are also modern public cemeteries, cemeteries owned by churches, and cemeteries owned by businesses (funeral homes mostly). What are the rules governing all these different types of cemeteries? Are there any special guidelines to make sure that I, or cachers seeking my cache, do not disturb the cemetery?

[+Renegade Knight]

Public Access is key.

 

In cemetarys the rule of thumb is to be respectful.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+G'n,G]

We've found alot of caches on public and private owned parks, so we think that you'll be okay with that.

[+Alan2]

Public Access does not mean you can place caches. National Recreation Areas have Public Access yet caches are prohibited.

 

Another guideline could be if someone would think you playing Frisbee is out of place and disrespectful, then caching would be seen the same way. Not by you. By them!

[+briansnat]

You cover a lot of ground. Private property where you can be arrested for trespassing, particularly property that is posted, is off limits without the landowner's permission. Public parks that have no geocaching ban, or policy are fine. In between are parks that have policies that must be adhered to in order for this site to list the cache and private property that also serves as a public place of accomodation. The later includes places like cemeteries, store parking lots, mall courtyards and business parks. Technically permission should be received before placing caches in places like this but generally, GC.COM lets them slide as long as there are no complaints.

 

There are also publicly owned lands that are off limits to the general public, like military bases. They are off limits, as are parks (such as NPS lands) that ban geocaching.

 

Then you have the little, assorted chunks of public land that you mentioned. Median strips, highway guardrails, sidewalks, road signs, etc... These are often places that it'd be hard to track down the responsible agency even if you wanted to ask permission. These are usually OK for caches.

 

As far as the other places you mention like private preserves, historical societies and other privately owned, public access parks, you should ask for permission. Most of these places are closely watched by caretakers, volunteers, etc... and a cache on the property would likely be discovered quickly anyway. These places are often very receptive to geocaches as a way to increase exposure and traffic.

Edited September 9, 2004 by briansnat

[gm100guy]

I use the rule thumb that if the govrnment cuts the grass and maintians the park and it is my tax dollars paying for the work then it is public property.

 

The only place that I would not hide a cache that fits this is on or near a school as I don't want to be seen as a lurker near them. And of course any place that hiding something could be seen as a terrorist threat.

 

And any place that as a ban on geocaching in force.

 

[Neos2]

(For instance, a found a cache buried in some thick brush between a flood wall and a river -- government land surely, no "no tresspassing" signs, but kosher?)

 

Information on river access

 

Rivers (and creeks) are generally viewed as being held in the public trust for non harmful activities and recreation--and that includes access to the river. A very very few areas have some more specific laws, but in general, if there is navigable water there, you have the right to use it for non-harmful acitivites.

 

Which is not to say that you can march boldly across anyone's property to get to the water..but if there is reasonable public access, you can place a geocache there.

 

(uh, except near bridges...which is another story entirely. Best not to put things near bridges.)

[thorin]

Public /private property can be hard. Per your example the road right-of-way is usually 10-15' upon which you should basically feel free to place a cache. Now obviously if you do this in front of a business or residence there is nothing saying it won't be removed. Whether it's by the business owner, the gov't guy who cuts the grass, or the electric company who maintains the pole is a completely different issue (just use your best judgement). As for placing it right on the edge of the field the only thing I can say is that alot of caches are placed on fencelines.

 

For waterways (at least in Canada but I'm 95% sure this appies in the US as well) the first 10-15' (don't recall the exact distance) of any property on a body of water (river, creek, lake, ocean, etc...) is public property. If someone comes canoing along your waterfront property and decides to pitch a tent and stay in the first 10-15' of your property then there isn't really anything you can do about it. You can make a big fuss and they may move on but if they want to be sticklers they can say "tough .. call the cops" and the cops will say "suck it up". So again when it comes to waterways just use your best judgement.

 

Placing a cache should be based mostly on common sense. Just put yourself in the shoes of anyone who might own/access/maintain the location and try to think of it all from their point of view.

 

Thorin

Edited September 9, 2004 by thorin

[+CosmicRay & Myrtle]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. This has been very helpful.

[+5nomads]

Just for clarity on waterways, this is controlled by the State and varies widely. Many states grant public access to "navigable" waterways, but the definition of "navigable" also varies from state to state. Best to ask a local fisherman or guide. In Texas, I believe any navigable waterway can be used publicly if accessed from a public low-water bridge and navigable is defined as being able to float unobstructed for 100 feet.

[gm100guy]

the first 10-15' (don't recall the exact distance) of any property on a body of water

 

Before you say something like this you should have the facts first. The below link explains why there is a 66 foot allowance around lakes in Ontario Canada and not 15'.

 

Shore Road

 

And we are like most and never bought it at our lake front cottage.

 

[thorin]

Was

the first 10-15' (don't recall the exact distance) of any property on a body of water

Not obvious enough for most people to realize it's a non-authorative answer? If I had been trying to speak authoratively I would have most certainly cited government websites and specific sections of the applicable legislation/documentation, and left out the caveats that I included.

 

Thorin

[Toron]

This is the law in Oklahoma related to trespassing. Keep in mind that I am merely adressing legality, and not proper caching etiquette and/or GC guidelines.

 

If the property is not occupied (there is not residence) and it is not posted against trespassing at regular intervals, you cannot be charged for trespassing unless you refuse a direct request by the landowner to leave the property.

 

For what it's worth.