Inappropriate Items Left In Cache

[+Bobfireman]

In my neck of the woods, many (most) caches are placed in national forests, open spaces, parks, etc. I myself have 3 caches hidden and all are in some type of wildland environment. A few days ago some cachers visited one of my caches, and placed -get this- waterproof matches in the cache. This cache is located in an "open space" area and is placed near the scene of a previous wildland fire. The cachers even joked in thier post about how matches could be the wrong thing to place in the cache.

This really has me pissed off. In the past several years this area has had many devasting wildland/forest fires. This cache even has pamphlets in it about protecting peoples homes from wildland fires. For someone to place matches in a cache in the middle of a wildland area where they could be used to start a fire strikes me as irresponsible and reckless.

The Groundspeak rules regarding what can be left in a cache say:

"What shouldn't be in a cache? Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, ammo, knives, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache. Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches, so use some thought before placing an item into a cache. "

Besides the possibility of someone using the matches to start a fire, my concern is for the publicity "hit" geocaching would get if it was determined after a fire that the matches used to start it were found in a geocache. There are already some places around here that don't allow geocaching because of concerns over dangerous items that may be left in a cache.

 

Lets use some common sense, folks.

[BassoonPilot]

One sees "banned" items in caches almost daily. For example, of the three caches I visited today, one contained a disposable lighter.

 

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

Edited September 9, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[+Moose Mob]

(1) Somewhere in CA there is (was) a cacher that leaves a bullet as a signature item. - Not good -

 

(2) The guidelines say "no knives", but what about those little swiss army knives with a .75 inch blade? Seem overkill, but where to draw the line?

 

(3) Matches? Ooops. Probably not the heat because it was lost in March/April (our wet months).

 

(4) Someone came through our area and left condoms (new) as signature items! That's not on the guideline's list... but this is a family sport. (yes, my 12 year old daughter thought it was funny. I'm glad she didn't recognize the packaging.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches...

It should really start and end there. Anything a kid can buy should be legit (if not desireable by all) to place in a cache.

[+Nurse Dave]

Well the worst I've seen is little plastic toys! You won't believe how many caches people are leaving those things in. Come on, I could put an eye out.

[+Bobfireman]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

Edited September 9, 2004 by bobfireman

[+PNWWizard]

Right up front let me say that I don't want to start a flame war here. But is it appropriate to leave religious materials in a cache? I know that the guidelines say a cache shouldn't be political or religious in nature, but what about that stuff as trade items?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I found a bible in a cache and thought it was not appropriate, especially as I don't subscribe to that particular religion, and I don't geocache in the hope of being "saved".

[+briansnat]

A few days ago some cachers visited one of my caches, and placed -get this- waterproof matches in the cache...SNIP...For someone to place matches in a cache in the middle of a wildland area where they could be used to start a fire strikes me as irresponsible and reckless.

 

You're joking, right?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I found a bible in a cache and thought it was not appropriate, especially as I don't subscribe to that particular religion, and I don't geocache in the hope of being "saved".

 

Then don't read it.

Edited September 9, 2004 by briansnat

[+5]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

One work...V-A-L-I-U-M...

[+Bobfireman]

. A few days ago some cachers visited one of my caches, and placed -get this- waterproof matches in the cache

 

You're joking, right?

 

Nope, I'm not joking.

[+Bobfireman]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

One work...V-A-L-I-U-M...

Hey, "5" thanks for contributing something worthwhile to the discussion. Wanna trade jobs with me some day? BTW my work day is 24 hours long...

Edited September 9, 2004 by bobfireman

[+Bobfireman]

Right up front let me say that I don't want to start a flame war here. But is it appropriate to leave religious materials in a cache? I know that the guidelines say a cache shouldn't be political or religious in nature, but what about that stuff as trade items?

 

I wouldn't have a problem with that, and I'm not a religous person either. You're missing the point. No one has started a fire with a bible.

[+5]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

One work...V-A-L-I-U-M...

Hey, "5" Stick your valium up your a**.

LMAO...That sounds uncomfortable ...Can you say "Hook, Line, and Sinker"? Let's get back on topic here...

[+Renegade Knight]

... You're missing the point. No one has started a fire with a bible.

A flint and steel would be appropriate swag so is the issue the ability to start a fire, or that matches are flamible?

 

What's generally accepted is that it's the flamability (of a certain type) that is frowed upon.

[+Bobfireman]

... You're missing the point.  No one has started a fire with a bible.

A flint and steel would be appropriate swag so is the issue the ability to start a fire, or that matches are flamible?

 

What's generally accepted is that it's the flamability (of a certain type) that is frowed upon.

Most people wouldn't think to start a fire with a flint and steel (or be smart enough to know how). I find it irresponsible. But if you want to nit pick it to death, fine.

FWIW, matches aren't "flammable". They're an ignition source.

[+El Diablo]

Personally I have left water proof matches in caches...hey that rhymes! If you are on a hike and your survival gear dosen't include water proof matches, then your pack isn't complete.

 

You mentioned in your post tha the area was a recent victim of a wildfire. Was it caused by cachers playing with matches? Or by careless campers, lightning, or an arsonist?

 

El Diablo

[+briansnat]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

I guess you are serious. If you can point to one wildfire that was started from matches found in a geocache, I'll shut up, but I bet you can't. Isn't it true however that things like lightning strikes, irresponsible cigarette smokers and campers are among the prime causes of wildfires? Can someone find matches in a cache and start a fire? Sure. They can also concieveably use the pencil found in a cache to murder someone. Far fetched? Yep, both are. An irresponsible smoker searching for a cache is a much more real danger than a pack of waterproof matches in a cache.

 

Besides, anybody who would take matches and deliberately start a wildfire is a criminal (lower case c), plain and simple. There are laws agianst that, but none that I'm aware of against posessing matches in the forest. If someone is criminally (lower case c) inclined he will probably bring his own matches anyway, likely obtained from the local 7-Eleven.

 

The idea that some geocacher is going to open a cache, find a pack of matches and say "Hmmm, I think I'll burn down the forest" is so ridiculious that I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding, other than the fact that I love to practice my typing.

Edited September 9, 2004 by briansnat

[+Bobfireman]

You mentioned in your post tha the area was a recent victim of a wildfire. Was it caused by cachers playing with matches? Or by careless campers, lightning, or an arsonist?

 

El Diablo

I don't know. What difference does it make?

[+Wyoming Travelers]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

One work...V-A-L-I-U-M...

Hey, "5" thanks for contributing something worthwhile to the discussion. Wanna trade jobs with me some day? BTW my work day is 24 hours long...

If I am not mistaken aren't you off for multiple days in a row to make up for your long shift? Also, did you not choose your trade? Matches are available for free at most convienence stores that sell cigarettes, I think I would consider focusing my energy banning matches there, rather than arguing with those of us, myself included, who have nothing better to do with our time.

 

Good Luck with you cause!!

[+El Diablo]

You mentioned in your post tha the area was a recent victim of a wildfire. Was it caused by cachers playing with matches? Or by careless campers, lightning, or an arsonist?

 

El Diablo

I don't know. What difference does it make?

The difference as you pointed out earlier is common sense. Almost everything left in a cache can be potentialy harmful if idiots choose to misuse the items. The overwhelming majority of cachers are very responsible people, and I would bet that the majority have a way of starting a fire if they so chose to do so. Theredore I don't believe that water proof matches in a cache is a bad thing.

 

El Diablo

[+Bobfireman]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

I guess you are serious. If you can point to one wild fire that was started from matches found in a geocache, I'll shut up, but I bet you can't. Isn't it true however that things like lightning strikes, irresponsible cigarette smokers and campers are among the prime causes of wildfires? Can someone find matches in a cache and start a fire? Sure. They can also concieveably use the pencil found in a cache to murder someone. Far fetched? Yep, in both instances. An irresponsible smoker searching for a cache is a much more real danger than a pack of waterproof matches in a cache.

 

Besides, anybody who would take matches and deliberatley start a wildfire is a criminal (lower case c), plain and simple. There are laws agianst that, but none that I'm aware of against posessing matches in the forest. If someone is criminally (lower case c) inclined he will probably bring his own matches, likely obtained from the local Seven-11.

 

The idea that some geocacher is going to open a cache, find a pack of matches and say "Hmmm, I think I'll burn down the forest" is so ridiculious that I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding, other than the fact that I love to practice my typing.

Gee, and I guess there has NEVER been a cache thats been found by someone who wasn't a cacher? We've had a number of caches raided out here. Besides, if a fire was started with matches found in a cache, do you think it would make one iota of difference to the media if the person who started it was a cacher or someone who found it by accident? I don't think so...

With more and more areas being closed to cachers, why should we give those who don't want us enjoying out sport any more ammunition to use against us?

Thanks for missing the point.

Edited September 9, 2004 by bobfireman

[+Harrald]

<<SNIP>>

No one has started a fire with a bible.

Sorry to wade into this fray...but this is just to easy....

 

 

No, but it has started wars.....which in turn have started fires.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Harrald

[+briansnat]

Thanks for missing the point

 

Oh, I got your point. You apparently didn't get El Diablo's though.

[+Bobfireman]

You mentioned in your post tha the area was a recent victim of a wildfire. Was it caused by cachers playing with matches? Or by careless campers, lightning, or an arsonist?

 

El Diablo

I don't know. What difference does it make?

The difference as you pointed out earlier is common sense. Almost everything left in a cache can be potentialy harmful if idiots choose to misuse the items. The overwhelming majority of cachers are very responsible people, and I would bet that the majority have a way of starting a fire if they so chose to do so. Theredore I don't believe that water proof matches in a cache is a bad thing.

 

El Diablo

All of which has nothing to do with the issue here...

My point was that this cacher didn't use common sense.

For what its worth, in this area, during fire bans, the possession of matches in a forest or other wildland is illegal.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Most people wouldn't think to start a fire with a flint and steel (or be smart enough to know how). I find it irresponsible. But if you want to nit pick it to death, fine.

FWIW, matches aren't "flammable". They're an ignition source.

Don't make me get out my hazmat manual and look all this junk up. You are getting nit picky. From my nitpicky question it looks like you are worried about the ability to start the fire, but don't give a rats a** about lesser known methods.

 

So here is my take. I don't care about safety matches in caches. However they are not considered good trade items so I take them out of caches. I also take out bullets, fireworks, and so on. That's what you should do. Then you mention that in your log. That gets the word out to the other 90% of cachers who don't read the forums.

 

A lot of the members of the forums would love for pocket knives to be allowed in caches. That rule was developed from dealing with parks to keep Geocaching viable. It has nothing to do with reality, just perception which is the reality that we work with.

[+PNWWizard]

Ok, I guess I'm over-sensitive. Imho geocaching is not a good place for proselytizing, but I've been voted down. Sorry <:-)

[+Renegade Knight]

...For what its worth, in this area, during fire bans, the possession of matches in a forest or other wildland is illegal.

That law is a crock. It's an example of piling on laws that do nothing to combat the actual problem (which is you don't want a fire to begin with) since nobody is going to wake up and say "Hey there is a ban, I'm dumping my matches and lighter". It's sole purpose is to put people in jail longer for breaking the original law they were breaking.

 

Besides if you read up on emergency gear that you should have access too, matches or a lighter makes the list. Funny.

[+Bobfireman]

A lot of the members of the forums would love for pocket knives to be allowed in caches. That rule was developed from dealing with parks to keep Geocaching viable. It has nothing to do with reality, just perception which is the reality that we work with.

Now you're getting to what my original post was all about... While I think that the placing of matches in a cache was irresponsible, I am also concerned about the public perception of a sport that is pretty much under the radar to most of the public.

We've got a lot of cities out here that won't allow geocaches. They say that its because no one knows what will end up in the cache. It's all BS, and they use it as an excuse, but then we have something like this. Ask any publicist...perception is reality.

[+El Diablo]

You mentioned in your post tha the area was a recent victim of a wildfire. Was it caused by cachers playing with matches? Or by careless campers, lightning, or an arsonist?

 

El Diablo

I don't know. What difference does it make?

The difference as you pointed out earlier is common sense. Almost everything left in a cache can be potentialy harmful if idiots choose to misuse the items. The overwhelming majority of cachers are very responsible people, and I would bet that the majority have a way of starting a fire if they so chose to do so. Theredore I don't believe that water proof matches in a cache is a bad thing.

 

El Diablo

All of which has nothing to do with the issue here...

My point was that this cacher didn't use common sense.

For what its worth, in this area, during fire bans, the possession of matches in a forest or other wildland is illegal.

I would love to see that law...could you point me to it please?

 

El Diablo

[BassoonPilot]

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line?  Let me guess...none.  Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire?  I'll be the answer is "no" again.  Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

As I see it, you're the one spreading "it" thick.

 

Nope; I've never done those things mentioned in your post. And for your information, I've also never overwhelmed a prison guard with a pocketknife contained in a geocache I "accidently stumbled upon." And I certainly never got into an automobile accident and killed anyone after drinking beer I found in a geocache. Oh yeah, I also never got anybody pregnant after using a defective condom found in a cache, and I haven't changed religions or political affiliation because of anything I found in a cache. Needless to say, I've never started a wildfire with matches or lighters I discovered in geocaches.

 

So, what was your point? Precisely when and where was a wildfire started by matches or a lighter left in a geocache? We agree they don't belong there ... but I think the probability is much higher a fire would result from kids sneaking a smoke in the woods (or any of the other reasons people have mentioned) than from matches contained in a geocache kids "stumbled upon."

Edited September 9, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[Pipanella]

Unless the matches can self-ignite, I don't see a problem.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

We put some camper's toilet tissue in a couple of caches that were quickly snapped up by the next cachers....Are we guilty of promoting these people going out & T.P.ing the neighborhood????? Or littering???? Or maybe they just got their s*** together????

 

We are NOT our brothers keepers. We assume people are sane & responsible human beings (for the most part).

 

Maybe some people who have posted here need a vacation...I know I do.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Ask any publicist...perception is reality.

That's one of my quotes, That's one of El Diablos quotes, and yes I agree. The angle I cross paths with the most is drugs in caches. Never seen any but boy do the local land managers ask about it.

[BassoonPilot]

...Ask any publicist...perception is reality.

It's absolute rubbish. Perception is easily manipulated in myriad ways and in many cases has absolutely no relation with reality.

[+El Diablo]

...Ask any publicist...perception is reality.

That's one of my quotes, That's one of El Diablos quotes, and yes I agree. The angle I cross paths with the most is drugs in caches. Never seen any but boy do the local land managers ask about it.

RK remembered something I said? I'm humbled!

 

El Diablo

[+YuccaPatrol]

I can understand the sensitivity of those in fire prone areas. I've helped evacuate friends from fires in Colorado and helped them prepare to fight them if they came over the ridge.

 

Considering that a cache could be found by an unsupervised child, I agree that it is a bad idea to leave matches as a cache item.

 

On my second day of geocaching, I found a big honkin hunting knife with bone handle and leather sheath. I was thrilled because I knew I could trade down for the small and safe trade item I had without having to trade even/up since I was being responsible by taking the banned item.

 

As a side note, I once found a brush fire by the side of the road in colorado, most likely caused by a cigarette tossed from a car. I called 911 and reported it and then proceeded to use both of my fire extinguishers to put out the blaze. When the firemen arrived 10 minutes later, I told them I had done their job for them and would they please replace my two small disposable extinguishers? The answer was "no".

 

But I hold no grudges. When I thought that my furnace was spewing carbon monoxide and making me sick, they immediately sent out the fire truck and used their detectors to confirm that I my home was safe

[+briansnat]

Ok, I guess I'm over-sensitive.  Imho geocaching is not a good place for proselytizing, but I've been voted down.  Sorry <:-)

No its not for proselytizing, nor should you get bent out of shape over finding a bible in a cache. There are some people who would appreciate it. If you find a bible in your hotel nightstand do you ignore it, or complain to management and check out in a huff?

 

The thing is that people are way too easily offended, or alarmed by things found in caches. OK, the basics, alcohol, firearms, explosives, pornography, drugs, etc... should be kept out of caches, but if you read these forums long enough, you'll see complaints about nearly everything that goes into caches. We see it in this thread with someone going hysterical over a pack of matches and we've seen it in other threads with people complaining about one item or another in caches.

 

If the item offends you, don't read it. If its dangerous, then remove it.

 

Considering that a cache could be found by an unsupervised child, I agree that it is a bad idea to leave matches as a cache item.

 

If unsupervised children are wandering around the forest, I think the possiblility of them finding matches in a cache is near the bottom of the list of things to worry about.

Edited September 9, 2004 by briansnat

[+Renegade Knight]

...Ask any publicist...perception is reality.

It's absolute rubbish. Perception is easily manipulated in myriad ways and in many cases has absolutely no relation with reality.

That's exaclty why perception is reality.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+El Diablo]

Ok, I guess I'm over-sensitive.  Imho geocaching is not a good place for proselytizing, but I've been voted down.  Sorry <:-)

No its not for proselytizing, nor should you get bent out of shape over finding a bible in a cache. There are some people who would appreciate it. If you find a bible in your hotel nightstand do you ignore it, or complain to management and check out in a huff?

 

The thing is that people are way too easily offended, or alarmed by things found in caches. OK, the basics, alcohol, firearms, explosives, pornography, drugs, etc... should be kept out of caches, but if you read these forums long enough, you'll see complaints about nearly everything that goes into caches. We see it in this thread with someone going hysterical over a pack of matches and we've seen it in other threads with people complaining about one item or another in caches.

 

If the item offends you, don't read it. If its dangerous, then remove it.

Amen!

 

El Diablo

[BassoonPilot]

That's exaclty why perception is reality.

No, that is why perception is often merely an illusion. Illusions ain't never reality.

Edited September 9, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[+RichardMoore]

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

I've fought fires in Ohio, Michigan and California.

I think you are overreacting.

 

Did you go and remove the matches from your cache?

[+Renegade Knight]

That's exaclty why perception is reality.

No, that is why perception is merely an illusion.

That illusion gets caches blown up, banned from parks, and other things. It's why interstates get shut down due to a nuclear spill for a radio active item the size of a pea that is allready contained.

 

Because perception is reality you have to either react to it, or work to change it to something more favorable. Risk Communications is born of this. But that brings us back to your original post on it.

 

Perception is easily manipulated in myriad ways

 

You just want those ways to be favorable.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Fire

 

Caching & Fires - The known connection.

[BassoonPilot]

That illusion gets caches blown up, banned from parks, and other things. It's why interstates get shut down due to a nuclear spill for a radio active item the size of a pea that is allready contained.

But those things weren't "reality." None proved to be what was feared or imagined ... they were illusions. If you want to say "perception is (false) reality," I'll go along quietly.

[Pipanella]

How people perceive things is THEIR reality. And because it's their reality, the reality for us is that at times, we have to deal with it, whether it's OUR reality or not. So it is a valid statement, like it or not.

 

What was the question?

[+southdeltan]

Matches don't start fires, people do.

 

sd

[+dingermcduff]

I've worked wildfires in 3 states over the last 4 years. The first wildfire I ever worked on was started by kids playing with matches. Another fire I worked on was started by teenagers goofing around; it burned 714 acres and 3 homes.

 

My point is that I can see bobfireman's disagreement over matches in a cache. Firefighters are constantly dressing up like Smokey in schools and telling kids about the dangers of playing with matches. So the message gets mixed when they are found by kids in caches.

 

Having said that, I understand that very young kids don't cache alone and that matches have a certain utility to outdoors folks. So while I think banning matches would be harsh, I don't leave them because I know that caches are sometimes muggled by unsupervised 8 and 10 year olds and I wouldn't want to even think I was a little responsible for a wildfire. I was on the Missionary Ridge fire in Colorado in 2002 where I think 56 homes burned (90+ structures?), and I wouldn't want to take the chance of having a hand in the sort of thing that hit that community.

 

As for pocketknives, same thing. I don't leave them because sometimes non-geocaching kids find them. I don't get upset when I see that others have left them, but it's just not my thing. I think there are plenty of other "utility" items one can leave in caches with the outdoorsperson in mind.

 

I think that people MOSTLY leave religious stuff for one of two reasons:

-They actually think they're going to convert/enlighten/change someone.

-They get the stuff in bulk for free.

 

Personally I don't think many people take the religious paraphernilia, and I don't care for finding it (mostly because of the 2 reasons people leave it that I mentioned above); but I just ignore it.

[+cachecows209]

Seems to me like everynes starting a fire over starting a fire....But then again there is no cache patrol on duty and what are you going to do to people who put matches in caches..Shiow up at their door and yell at them?!!! Because I'm sure that they meant for stupid reckless idiot people who geocache(a slight minority I might add) may think of starting a fire with the matches.. and again if they're hiking they probably have matches anyway!!!!!! And BTW my Uncle is a Firefighter who has to deal with multiple fires a day, hurricanes, and to top it off is also a paramedic and he has never seen one instance of someone burning things down with matches from a geocache...and in Dean Cain's words "Unbelievable?...Believe It!)

[+blazerfan]

But I also think people have a tendency to get too "excited" about the things they discover in caches.

When was the last time you spent a few days on a wildfire line? Let me guess...none. Ever have to talk to someone who lost a house to a wildfire? I'll bet the answer is "no" again. Don't give me any s*** about "too excited".

I read to this post and I found it totally inapropriate. You can make a point without cursing at people or insulting them by questioning their experiences. My parents tought me to be polite. They also tought me not to play with matches. Matches are useful and when used responsably are not dangerous.

[biketothetop and pinklady]

Appropriate or Inappropriate? Religious or non-religious? Matches or Toilet Paper?

 

How many of you actually go to a cache to "see what is in it"? Admittedly I have only found twenty or so caches, and each one had the same junk in it! I don't pay any attention to the contents, the fun is in the find. Don't like matches in the cache, take them out and find something in your pocket to replace it with...like perhaps a pretty rock. Don't like the toilet paper, take it out and replace it with a McDonalds happy meal toy.