+Team Desertrat82 Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I have been caching and benchmark hunting for over a year now... I have just now started checking out the forums...LOL.. Anyway, I have found almost 500 caches and almost 200 benches... My 500th cache, weather permitting will be the cache on top of Mt. Borah, Idaho, and there are 2 bencmarks up there which will put me up to 200... So I definatley qualify for the 100/100 club... Does anyone know anything about it?? JJ Quote Link to comment
+Colorado Papa Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 (edited) So what? Who's counting? Take the 100/100 back to the geocaching side of the forum. Edit to add the following: Just looked at your stats and randomly checked some of your logs and compared them with NGS. Interesting that I didn't find a single picture nor a report to NGS. You've done a terrific job of finding marks and have posted new coordinates that I'm sure NGS would like to know about. Instead of being concerned about numbers, add pictures to your logs and inform NGS of your finds. Deb Brown will even accept your pictures if in the proper format. BTW, welcome to the world of forums and make yourself at home here. We are always happy to have more benchers aboard. Ted Edited September 8, 2004 by Colorado Papa Quote Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 So what? Who's counting? Take the 100/100 back to the geocaching side of the forum. This quote is from HERE. "Well, if we are giving statistics, of 256 log entries, 123 FOUND 107 NOT FOUND 18 DESTROYED 8 NOTES This total does not include the obvious NOT FOUND/DESTROYED in the widening of US 281 from Brownsville to McAllen, Texas. Most of these had been placed in the canal abutments which were all destroyed and replaced when the highway was widened. I must have checked out about 50 of them and found only one still intact. The description for them said they were 3 feet above the highway and 22+/- feet from the centerline. They are now underground and 75-100 feet from the centerline. This post has been edited by Colorado Papa on May 14 2004, 04:01 PM" Welcome to the forums Desertrat. We're proud to claim 300+ finds. John Quote Link to comment
+Colorado Papa Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 (edited) John, I'll give you a "Gotcha!" Better update my stats: "Well, if we are giving statistics, of 302 log entries, 192 FOUND 78 NOT FOUND 21 DESTROYED 11 NOTES" Don't know why NOT FOUND figure went down. Maybe something GC did with the figures? Did you read my edited post? And this one was edited to revise stats. Ted Edited September 8, 2004 by Colorado Papa Quote Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 John,I'll give you a "Gotcha!" Better update my stats: "Well, if we are giving statistics, of 302 log entries, 192 FOUND 78 NOT FOUND 21 DESTROYED 11 NOTES" Don't know why NOT FOUND figure went down. Maybe something GC did with the figures? Did you read my edited post? And this one was edited to revise stats. Ted Nice addition. Good save. The opportunity arose and I just couldn't pass it by. John Quote Link to comment
evenfall Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I have Followed this thread so far with interest, In fairness to Team Desertrat, Congratulations for the sheer quanity of finds you have amassed in a year along with all the geocaching. I think that though you will find folks here have many finds, they have not been very contest oriented about it. The Bench Mark forum Regulars seem to be more Quality oriented in the way they approach the find. It seems to be the Hallmark of the Bench Mark Hunter. I mean, I know how much time I spend on my recoveries, and most are not even posted as yet. If you came looking for a pat on the back, this is not what you are looking for. I don't want to be too critical, as the status of a find is different for people and some are in it for the quanity. The rules are loose and relatively undefined, but then I looked at the team log... Papa mentioned the log so what the hey... Lots of finds with little description. Zero Pics. I have noticed the trend on geocaching to post WGS 84 Coords. I assume this because geocaching is WGS84 by default while Real World Bench Mark Recovery is NAD 83. Using WGS 84 to compare with NAD 83 adjusted NAD 27 scaled Coord's... But what choice has a future reader got to go with if one does not make a note of the Datum? In the engineering world where the Bench Mark Hails from, we assume little... We spend hours looking for ways to deine what has not been adequately defined. In this instance, No Pictures, no real improved descriptions, anything. They are legit I am sure, but they differ from the spirit of what Recovering a Bench Mark is. I was looking through the logs after noticing they live in a place I was stationed while I was in the Service so I was once familiar with the area... So I ran a search on the team Zip Code. 83647... I would just like some others here at the forum to have a go at 83647. It is ok to draw your own conclusions. I will gather my thoughts in a bit and write about them later. But I reccomend running a search on 83647. I highly encourage reading the not founds. I hope others will gather their thoughts here too. I would be interested. I will leave you all with one thought. If I never leave this chair, I look up a PID and find that the last Crew reporting to NGS that attempted to recover it failed, Should I log it for myself as a not found? Or, should a not found be an attempted recovery by me, and reported as such that I tried but did not recover the Actual Mark. I have no problem with updating the Geocaching log with a destroyed icon and an excerpt of the Actual datasheet stating why something is not found or destroyed, as that would be a historical reference as to why. I do go familiarize myself with the former location to be sure as well. Is not found, in the most simply put terms, good enough evidence to assume anything? Quote Link to comment
+Team Desertrat82 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 So I guess numbers don't matter much, I do just love going out and finding things with my gpsr, whether caches or benches... I do not have a digital camera, that is why no pics of the benchmarks, but I am honest in my finds, and have never reported a benchmark found that I didn't find... JJ Quote Link to comment
+embra Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 (edited) Interesting, and sure to provoke some discussion. Here are a few thoughts: First, the generalities (these formed during the "Standards" thread, but I never got around to posting them). As has been stated, there are no *rules* here. However, I think that many of us adhere to an ethic. Ethics are principles to which we aspire. As an online community developed in this forum, an ethic evolved (and continues to evolve) through ongoing forum discussions; this ethic governs benchmarking activities for those who choose to try and follow it. The specific: looks like Team DR has taken the available geocaching.com tools and used them in a way that made sense to him (I presume the pronoun, apologies if wrong). Personally, I use the status "Not found" to mean "I looked for it and I couldn't find it." From what I can tell, most benchmarkers use the status in that manner. Obviously, not all do, as Team DR appears to use the status to mean something like "I may or may not have actually looked, but I have at least given the description consideration; it is not a mark that I have found." That's a bit different game. I think it worthwhile to point out the difference, and to allow Team DR the chance to consider whether he want to continue to play the game as he has, or to play the game the way most of--well, who? Ther rest of us who are interested enough to post in this forum, I guess. A choice either way can be rational, and not definable as wrong unless we can cite a compelling authority. Is the benchmarking community a compelling authority? Only if you choose to let it be so. I choose so personally (and I could change my mind on it someday), but I would not choose to make it binding on someone like Team DR who may elect to conduct benchmarking in a different form. I also note in passing that while his DNF reports are brief, they do state whether he looked or not. I have *much* less problem with that type report than I would with a DNF report not mentioning that no field attempt was made. Because of my understanding of the meaning of the phrase, I would feel the latter to be misleading. I'm guessing Team DR is logging in this manner to afford a certain tidiness for all benchmarks in the vicinity, using the postal code search as a record-keeping tool. I could see logic in that. It goes without saying that this would not pass muster for NGS reports. To the extent that many of us aspire to *those* standards in our benchmarking conduct, I would expect that the way Team DR has been logging DNFs would ruffle a few feathers. I don't intend my comments to be critical. I intend them to acknowledge differences. These discussions enhance my understanding and appreciation of the way that I ultimately choose to pursue benchmarks. Edited September 8, 2004 by embra Quote Link to comment
+happycycler Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Welcome aboard!! Some earlier thoughts: 100/100 club from this forum. So I guess numbers don't matter much, I do just love going out and finding things with my gpsr, whether caches or benches... PSST -- please don't tell anyone but I like numbers! I wish that my numbers were more impressive. But I also enjoy getting out for a search. The history involved, and the changes that have happened since some marks were set also intrigue me. It is a hobby! I think that we each define our own rules and I would hope that we each find enjoyment in this pursuit. Quote Link to comment
+Colorado Papa Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Or, should a not found be an attempted recovery by me, and reported as such that I tried but did not recover the Actual Mark. I have no problem with updating the Geocaching log with a destroyed icon and an excerpt of the Actual datasheet stating why something is not found or destroyed, as that would be a historical reference as to why. I take it from your post that you would agree with me about JK1205 observed in 1879. Quote Link to comment
evenfall Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 (edited) jj, and all, Hey! I do admire your enthusiasm. I am not questioning the game of Bench Mark hunting from those who see it as a contest to that of those who approach it as an NGS recovery. I prefer the latter, but that is me. I like that you enjoy it, Keep it up! In geocaching, the policing happens by the consientious owner of a Cache. If you do not sign the log proving you were there, the owner can disallow the find if you post one. In Bench Mark hunting there is no owner that will do this, so the burden of proof has to be on the recovering party, a Pic or GPS fix, hopefully in NAD 83 datum of the station, or better yet both! jj, I have a concern though. I looked at your zip code and there were a few Bench Marks you had posted not found on which you made no attempt to find. For instance, Because a Bench Mark is located in the middle of a Municipal Airport runway does not make it not found. It is Not Known until someone goes and looks. If you didn't go look, you didn't not find it. You can arrange to go try to recover this station if you make the right connections. If they politely say no to your offer to recover them then they do. It is likely they would decline you as a geocaher but maybe not if you intended to make a real NGS recovery. I am not suggesting you should try either way, but I do question posting any kind of status report other than a note to the Geocaching database if no attempt was made to Physically attempt to recover the station. In a couple other not founds I saw that you put that if the pros could not find it last time then there is no point in looking. Well The interesting thing is some times the so called pros have an off day, or they didn't see the area the way someone else might, they may not find it but Why? Why did they acertain it was not found? Is it because every attempt was made based on the description but to no avail? Is it because all the references to it have changed or are now gone? Is it because of regrading or construction or it is now impossible to reach? If they did not tell you why they did not find it, then I feel it is still worth a look. Further, I often go look anyway just to see. I mean if Colorado Papa says an 1879 telegraph pole is gone, well we know wood won't last that long and telegraph has been largely superceeded by Radio and telecom so it not being there is likely true and I would concur with a CGS attempt to recover from almost anytime going forward that that mark is gone. I may not bother with it since it has been reported as gone. and gone for many many years. It is cool that Papa was in the area and looked, found nothing and said Nope! At least he was there and it crossed his mind to look. He familiarized himself with that marks former location and can concur with the previous report. If it were a bench mark disc, I may choose instead to have a look. If it was much more recent I may have a look. If the USPSQD reported NOT FOUND, I am definately going to double check. In the environment things change all the time. Not founds can resurface. believe it. I know in the Geocaching Database if we put an Icon there that reminds us of a status other than found we then wont keep seeing the blank, but A note would be more appropriate than a not found because the icon you put up could be uninspiring to those in your area who may want to search. It could also inspire them to not use the appropriate methods to log a find. Just a thought. What is the Impression we make? In closing to jj I say this. Having been stationed in Mtn Home once I see that you have not recovered my favorite old fishing spot, So grab your Gear and a couple fishing poles and head out to Crane falls off the Bruneau Hwy... It was my favorite place to bag bass when I was there, and I wish it were still near by. While you are there, (I wasn't sending you for nothing) Recover Crane Falls NV1205 and Crane Falls Cairn NV1204 No One has recovered this Cairn since 1945 and the Station not since 1959. After that go down to Bruneau Hot Springs out in the desert and enjoy! Anderson Ranch and CJ strike were favorite places too... How we choose to report is a question of practice. The NGS Database is Very Important, and has been Damaged by Reports that could have been better. Since Geocachers can report to the NGS database under the GEOCAC submission code, I would like to help anyone who chooses to do so, to do so in a manner that improves the database. If I can't find it, I want to let the next Surveyor or Engineer, partly since I am one, know why I think it is gone, and what I tried to do to recover it. Remember that some of us look here too. If a local can tell me that they think the area was regraded in 1985, that may be why I can't find it and I will add that to my recovery report. We can learn a lot about how to recover these by reading how others tried, even when they failed. Don't be afraid to ask. On database integrity, In a simple example, if a description says that the station is 0.8 feet N of a witness post, and you get there and find no witness post, yet you find the mark, You could say I found it! But you could also improve upon the status by reporting that the witness post is missing however, other parts of a description are still adequate. If it is now under 4 inches of Soil when it used to be on the surface, And the witness is no longer there that is good for future recoverers to know. And it is likely still there, so keep looking! You are already there, Use the description and the ol tape measure... Besides, witness posts make it too easy! heheheh Just kidding! If the description is now so poor that you were lucky to find it at all, perhaps a new one is in order. This takes time but here is a pay off, your recovery and initials will still be there in 150 years. I would be happy to help any way I can to help sort all this out, for those who may be interested in this method of recovery. And at the same time, I am fine with the sport and contest. But I feel that the way we treat the database is important and I feel Logging something not found because it is too hard to recover is inappropriate to the database integrity and sends a message that others should to. Why not attempt to persuade geocachers to improve their Bench Mark recovery skills? I also have no problem recovering someone else's find. It is not mine until I find it. I may not find it first but it is more than finding it to me. Is the description adequate? are there new factors affecting this mark? Erosion, pending construction etc? If I determine it is gone for sure, I have no problem using that destroyed symbol here on geocaching, as well as a not recovered posting to NGS to note it's demise and why, But I prefer to go make sure with my own eyes before I sign my name to that. I have to know for sure it is gone. I live in Seattle. Seattle, like many cities, is becoming quite post industrial and many Landmark stations are gone or so altered that they no longer fit. Many Bench Mark Discs are becoming lost, or their descriptions altered due to new construction as well. But if we read carefully, we can acertain a lot from the previous recoveries and it will provide clues as to what we can expect today, sometimes. Here is a geocaching recovery I frowned on. Frowned on twice really. Go have a look at the PID for SY3912 Read the 1932 and 1959 recoveries. Based on the 59 recovery, these cannot even be the same towers. It takes a few months to erect these babies so I am sure we just shut the power off a few months to facilitate the move. No body would mind eh? No. The new one was constructed next to the old ones, wired and the power transferred, then the old one dismantled... Yet this PID can be recovered by 2 different people, one at exactly 53 mph... (gotta love these sticklers for accuracy!) Look! Like totally dude! I am so sure! It's a transmission tower! If you look at the other recoveries this Team recovered a number of things in Seattle at freeway speed... Hmmm... Now I flew over a few different cities while back, and this sorta gets me to thinking... Easy Pickings! Just need the window seat! Another favorite of mine I don't even need to post. We all have this one near us. A recovery is made and a photo taken.... of a monument cover.... Paved into the street.... It is a close up of the monument cover..... that looks like all the other monument covers in the city.... Yet! this one is the Station we are recovering, trust us! an easy find! Um Yeah. I am thinking of the mind boggling number of these covers in any city... But no pic of what is under the cover, or one as proof of the proper intersection or whatever... Tell you what, I am going to take a Pic of the monument cover in the street in near my house. In fact, one in concrete and one in asphalt. I will sell this pic to anyone for $20 each and you can recover it any way you like! I am going to start by using the Concrete Cover pic as my recovery for the Space Needle! :-) Perhaps someone would like one of these pics for their recovery of the Washingtom Monument? Lincoln Memorial? The Alamo? Hope you enjoyed it as much as I, Rob Edited September 9, 2004 by evenfall Quote Link to comment
+Colorado Papa Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Rob, You hit the nail real square! Thanks for the post. Ted Quote Link to comment
Teeds Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Great post Rob. I guess I am at the other end of the scale. I have zero in all catagories, primarily because I couldn't see the interest in caching. Nothing against people that do but the thought of caching just didn't hold my interest. I have seen a pile of benchmarks over the years and it has never occured to me that they were not all the same in the eyes of the powers that be. I have learned a great deal just lurking around this forum. I know of a few monuments that I can check very easily because I have seen them weekly for many many years. There is something really cool about becoming involved in a interest that is self policed. In this day in age of cradle to grave protection, that alone is enough to prick my interest, but to be involved in something as large as the USGS is really cool. Some of my favorite "things" are some wonderful 15 minute quads that are now beyond the point of be called "antique". I could stare at them for hours. The care, precision and art in the old 15 minute quads is self-evident (at least to me). Thanks to all that cut the path for me! Your work is sincerely appreciated. Tony Quote Link to comment
+Team Desertrat82 Posted September 10, 2004 Author Share Posted September 10, 2004 I want to thank every one on their thoughts about benchmark hunting, I went and edited a lot of my "no find" entries under 83647. I am the only one around my area, that is into benchmark hunting and so I had no else to talk to about the process... I will now make every effort that I can to recover benchemarks even if someone else could not find them. Thanks again for everyones comments... JJ Quote Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 So, how did the hunt up on Mt. Borah go, inquiring minds want to know? Good to see you made it back! We look forward to hearing more from you. Shirley~ Quote Link to comment
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