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Does This Count?


Team Vibe
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:huh: Ok, so yesterday we were out Geocaching and were well on our way to finding several in one day. We took with us a couple of friends to introduce to Geocaching. The last cache was in a fairly heavily wooded area with some downed trees and one of our friends took the GPS and dove right in (good for her!). We followed, then quickly figured out that she was going to come out at the parking area and we decided to turn back and find an easier way in. About the time we reach the parking area, we hear her yell that she's found it. So, silly me, I decide that I'm just going to plunge right in through this tall grass and get to her in the fastest way I can instead of trying to find an easier way in. And even as I stepped, I knew that I shouldn't have done it. Down my foot went into a massive hole and my ankle cracked several times. So, the three of us who were standing in the parking area never made it back to the cache. Our friend who was in there was looking at the cache, but the need to get me to the ER was slightly more pressing than the desire to go in there and sign the log book.

 

My question is: Does it count as a find? The owner of the cache emailed me and says that he thinks it's ok to log it as a find. But 3/4 of us didn't actually even SEE the cache and we didn't even get close to the log book.

 

And also: Anyone else ever have a similar experience (please tell me I'm not the only Geo-klutz out here!)

 

Thanks!

Twisty of Team Vibe

Edited by Team Vibe
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...The owner of the cache emailed me and says that he thinks it's ok to log it as a find....

I'd say you have your answer, unless you play by tournment rules.

 

Tournament rules would be. You didn't get to the cache so you couldn't log it as intended. No log = No find, No exceptions.

 

As for me, once I got that message from the owner I'd log it so fast my keyboard would be smoking.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely up to you. there are no rules. Whatever your own rules allow is fine

Not exactly. You forgot that the cache owner might have rules of their own - posted on the cache page or not.

 

In this case, if it were my cache, I would probably email them and suggest they change their Find logs to a Notes.

 

I am not generally rigid about cache finds of our caches and have often written to people who have posted DNF's to suggest they change them to a find when the cacher tells a good story. In those cases, usually when the container has gone missing or something else out of the norm happened at the site. I have been awarded finds for a creative (true) story. But if someone has to abort the hunt before they get to the site then I don't think it should be considered a find no matter what the reason. The need to post finds is not that great.

 

I would feel sympathetic toward the injured party and possibly even place a new cache in a wheelchair accessible location in honor of them but I don't think I would like it posted as a find.

 

Now if their friend had brought the container and logbook to them that would be different. Then they could rightly say they visited the cache and I would be happy with the creative approach. But, of course, when someone has just incurred multiple bone breaks signing a geocache logbook might not be formost on people's minds.

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Great story!

 

You should write it out and post it to the cache page, as this is definately one for the record books.

 

Is it a find? Of course not, as you didn't find the cache yet, but it is an interesting story.

 

On a more realistic note, I do see how this is a grey area, but if it were my cache history, I couldn't log a cache I hadn't yet found as a find.

 

Jamie

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I sympathize with you on the spraining of the ankle. Its allways my right one, probably about 5 times in the last 20 years. Oh shoot, its been awhile so i better get the ace bandage ready. :huh: As far as the find goes, its up to you, especially since the cache owner has given his blessing. For me, it would be a no find since i never signed the logbook!

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Yes, indeed, he did give his blessing. Had I been paying attention (like, looking at the ground, for instance), I would have gotten the cache--no question about that.

 

I, personally, view injuring myself a bit differently from our GPS batteries dying as we always keep spare batteries, but I don't keep a spare ankle in the car.

 

Anyway, I posted a note to the cache page originally and did not change it to a find until I had received the owner's blessing to do so. Assuming that the cache doesn't disappear, I plan on going back and actually signing the log ASAP--especially since we know exactly where it's at now. Maybe I'll leave my Ace bandage in the cache as a memorial.

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<<SNIP>>

I plan on going back and actually signing the log ASAP--especially since we know exactly where it's at now.

<<SNIP>>

When you do that you should log your find. I would log a note until I've placed my mark in the logbook.

 

It doesn't really matter though. Everyone has different opinions on what a find is.

Edited by Harrald
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ok, i'm just thinking some of this out to one set of logical conclusions...

 

one member of the party found the container, right? if you're hunting with a team and only one of you spots it and the others troop on over, you all get to claim it, right? you all get to sign the book.

 

what if none of you signs the book because the book is in bad repair or missing? do you still claim it?

 

what if it's raining BUCKETS and you don't want to get everything wet?

 

what if you go there, find the cache, open it, make your trades but forget to sign the log?

 

IF there's no trick to opening the container and signing the log, you probably get to claim found since your party had found it when your injury occurred.

 

if your injury had occurred and the hunt been stopped prior to the finding of the container, or if you had failed to solve a problem allowing you to open the container, it would be clearly not found.

 

as RK says, it ain't tournament rules.

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I had one recently where it was a magnetic cache in a free paper box. I found part of a magnet in the box, but no cache. I saw the owner that evening at an event. He said go ahead and log oit as a find. i did it ASAP. He then archived it riight after I logged.

I tried a multi that takes you to 10 places in a small park and then to find the ache. The final kept disappearing, so the owner said if you told him specifically where you thoiught the cache would have been, you could log a find. I did.

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As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely up to you.  there are no rules.  Whatever your own rules allow is fine

But there are rules. Here are the rules taken from gc.com FAQ site: Geocaching FAQ

 

QUOTE:

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you. UNQUOTE

 

There you go. Did you take something from the cache? Did you leave something in the cache? Did you write in the logbook? If not, then you broke the rules. Trouble is, most likely everyone has TNLN before, so we all have broken the rules.

 

And what about the last rule...."Where you place a cache is up to you". meaning railroad tracks? National Parks?, etc. :huh:

Edited by The Navigatorz
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1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you. UNQUOTE

 

There you go. Did you take something from the cache? Did you leave something in the cache? Did you write in the logbook? If not, then you broke the rules. Trouble is, most likely everyone has TNLN before, so we all have broken the rules.

 

Ah, not true. When I've found the cache, I've taken from it the pleasure of finding it and I'm leaving my signature.

 

And what about the last rule...."Where you place a cache is up to you". meaning railroad tracks? National Parks?, etc

.

 

A lot of their FAQ's can use some tweaking. Some haven't changed with developments in the sport.

Edited by briansnat
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Hi,

 

I think that to log a cache a found, you should find it, log it, take something and leave something...pretty simple...you didn't find the cache, your friend did.

 

As regards the assertion that a TNLN might not count as a find in the strictest sense...let us fall back on our knowledge of forensics...

 

Locard's Principle of Exchange (aka Locards Exchange Principle)

Edmond Locard's Principle of Exchange states that when any two objects come

into contact, there is always transference of material from each object

onto the other.

 

So even if you TNLN (intentionally), you are still exchanging trace materials from the cache onto you, and vice versa... ;)

 

nfa (mystery novel nerd) :D

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I'VE GOTTEN DEHYRATED ON A CACHE THAT WAS NO LONGER THERE, WROTE THE OWNER AND DIDN'T RECIVE A RESPONSE FROM THEM, SO I LOGGED IT AS A FIND. I MADE SURE THAT I LEFT A REPLACEMENT CACHE IN THE LOCATION FOR FUTURE GEOCACHERS.

Four separate and unrelated things happened here:

  • You didn't find a cache.
  • You got dehydrated looking for a cache.
  • The owner didn't respond to an e-mail.
  • You placed another cache in the area where a cache already was.

You didn't find a cache - should be a "Didn't Find It" - sounds simple enough to me.

 

You got dehydrated looking for a cache. I've don that too. I've learned something from my bad experience too, and now I make sure I take water even on the shortest of hikes.

 

The owner didn't respond to an e-mail. Happens all the time - vacations, people on hiatus from caching, computer crashes. MAYBE the owner isn't involved in caching any more. How do you know?

 

You placed another cache in the area where a cache already was. WHY would you do this? Are you 100% sure the cache wasn't there? Did the owner or someone who had found it before confirm it wasn't there. This is - IMNSHO - a bad practice. Someone else later could go out to find the original EXTREMELY WELL HIDDEN cache, and find yours under the pile of sticks next to the tree stump. ;)

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I'VE GOTTEN DEHYRATED ON A CACHE THAT WAS NO LONGER THERE, WROTE THE OWNER AND DIDN'T RECIVE A RESPONSE FROM THEM, SO I LOGGED IT AS A FIND. I MADE SURE THAT I LEFT A REPLACEMENT CACHE IN THE LOCATION FOR FUTURE GEOCACHERS.

Four separate and unrelated things happened here:

  • You didn't find a cache.
  • You got dehydrated looking for a cache.
  • The owner didn't respond to an e-mail.
  • You placed another cache in the area where a cache already was.

You didn't find a cache - should be a "Didn't Find It" - sounds simple enough to me.

 

You got dehydrated looking for a cache. I've don that too. I've learned something from my bad experience too, and now I make sure I take water even on the shortest of hikes.

 

The owner didn't respond to an e-mail. Happens all the time - vacations, people on hiatus from caching, computer crashes. MAYBE the owner isn't involved in caching any more. How do you know?

 

You placed another cache in the area where a cache already was. WHY would you do this? Are you 100% sure the cache wasn't there? Did the owner or someone who had found it before confirm it wasn't there. This is - IMNSHO - a bad practice. Someone else later could go out to find the original EXTREMELY WELL HIDDEN cache, and find yours under the pile of sticks next to the tree stump. ;)

I think he was joking. Well I hope he was.

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I once, take that as recently, logged a cache as a find and I couldn't sign the log. It was wedged in a crack in a brick fence and I could not extricate it unless I destroyed the cache. I have a problem with destroying anything that isn't mine. However I do know the cache owner and he had no problem with that.

 

Ken

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Well, as for my friend finding the cache, she isn't really an official Geocacher yet, so they were working under our team name with us. As the consensus seems to be that it should not be considered a find, I will go back and change it (besides, what's the difference between 62 and 63 caches, right?). I'm itching to get back out there and log the cache as an actual find.

 

Perhaps I won't leave the Ace bandage I've been using as I've had need of it alot recently (I sprained my other ankle about four weeks ago), but I'll purchase a new one. But for the record, I wash my bandages! :-)

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I think he was joking.  Well I hope he was.

That's one thing I hate about forums and e-mails. I'm one of those people that can NEVER tell if someone's joking or not. I tend to take people on face value.sad.gif

 

And - when someone posts this in a forum and doesn't put a ;) after it (or at least a :D ) then a neocacher might come along at think it's acceptable. ((sigh))

Edited by Markwell
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If you require emergency medical treatment any time during the attempt, you claim a smiley, especially if the cache owner says it's OK.

 

That's just common courtesy.

Been there, done that, got a Hyperextended Knee and took the Purple Frowny Face because it was the truth. A yellow smily would be a lie.

 

I wouldn't log the find, but it's totally up to you and the cache owner.

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Did you find* the cache? No. Then why is it so hard to tell the truth in your log? Post a DNF and go back later to avenge yourself.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm apparently a liar. Had you read what I posted before, you'd see that it's already been changed. Next time, read ALL the posts.

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Did you find* the cache? No. Then why is it so hard to tell the truth in your log? Post a DNF and go back later to avenge yourself.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the insinuation that I'm apparently a liar. Had you read what I posted before, you'd see that it's already been changed. Next time, read ALL the posts.

It's not you, just that this question comes up frequently in the forums. I'm amazed at how many people ask if it's ok to claim a find on something they didn't.

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If the owner said to go ahead and claim a find and you want to do it, then by all means do so.

 

I myself would do so depending on circumstances. How close to the cache did I get? Did the other person sign my name in anyways? How do I do group finds normally? Does whoever find it just grab it for all to wait their turn to sign? Does 1 person just sign for all? Does each person after finding it move away and wait for each person in turn to actually 'find' it?

 

Based on the above I don't think I would claim a find, but that's just me. I always make it a point that I am the one to sign the log. If I didn't sign it, it doesn't count for me.

 

As for the rules- there is NOTHING quoted here about being able to claim a find. That is only done on this (or another) website and has nothing to do with the actual cache. The 'rules' never even mention logging it online, only that you should email the owner, which you have done and they have given their blessing to log it as a find. The choice is now ultimately up to you and how you decide you want to play this game.

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