Exchanging for "illegal" items?

October 2, 2003

I recently picked up a dozen or so laser pointers very cheaply. I've left one in a cache already. But was wondering wether or not I should do this. Where I live, it's illegal to sell laser pointers to minors.

So would is it OK for me to leave laser pointers in other caches, since it's possible that minors may find these on their own while out caching.

5.3k · October 2, 2003

Is it only illegal to sell them to minors, or is it also illegal for minors to possess them?

24.7k · October 2, 2003

As much as I would like one of those the fact that it's illegal to sell them to a minor makes it an inappropriate cache item.

For exaclty the reasons you pointed out. If they can posses them, you might have an out if you leave the batteries out. Lets see how everyone else comes out on this one.

38.2k · October 2, 2003

How many minors are there out there hunting geocaches alone anyway? I know of maybe 1 or 2 in NJ out of all the many dozens (if not hundreds) of geocachers we have here.

Just put them in remote caches and not in caches in popular parks and you'll be fine. I'd love to find a lazer pointer in a cache. Geez, some NYC politicians are looking to ban all toy guns. Does that mean we can't put water pistols in caches anymore? How far is this going to go? Pretty soon the only thing that will be allowed in caches are Nerf balls...until a kid chokes on one.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

October 2, 2003

No why on earth would laser pointers be illegal for a minor to buy?

They can by medications and alcohol laden mouthwash, yet not the little pointers???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

1.3k · October 2, 2003

I consulted with my dog, Chewie, who loves chasing the light of the laser pointer around before responding. (He says they can take his laser pointer when they pry it from MY cold dead hand! Not sure I like the way he slobbered when he said that.)

We both think that you should stick them in the caches in an act of Ghandi-like defiance against an unjust law.

Remember, if you outlaw laser pointers for kids, only outlaw kids will have laser pointers.

Well, maybe the law is right. I mean, we can't have parents watching and disciplining their own kids, can we?

Oh, and if it is illegal for kids to posess them, and a kid comes to a cache and takes one, and a cop does catch the kid with it, and they do chase you down to find it, pay the fine and thank who or whatever you worship that you live in a place where the cops have that much free time.

[This message was edited by Bull Moose on October 02, 2003 at 02:25 PM.]

4.8k · October 2, 2003

Laser pointers are pretty funny with pets. Our cat goes nuts

Act of difiance is my vote. If you didn't log it on the cache page how would anyone know anyway?

We were on a flight once where some teenagers were flashing their laser around the cabin (pre 9/11 mind you). When one hit an attendant in the head with a flash of light, that was the end of that game

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

October 2, 2003

I think they outlawed the laser pointers for kids cause they figured that they would not know better than pointing the thing at their eyes and maybe even look into the lens which supposedly can affect their vision. Now, if you think you can live with this fact that it can blind a kid (I'm of course assuming that this is true), then go ahead and put them in caches. I think kids won't stick themselves with pocket knives but they will for sure look into the lens of laser pointers and flashlights. I know it is sad that we have to look out for other people's kids, but that's just the way it is

[This message was edited by ChiefPig on October 02, 2003 at 03:42 PM.]

October 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
No why on earth would laser pointers be illegal for a minor to buy?

They can by medications and alcohol laden mouthwash, yet not the little pointers???

https://www.tdh.state.tx.us/news/b_new265.htm

1.3k · October 2, 2003

Do a little research, if it is ok to posess lasers I'd fill the cache up. You aren't selling anything. It's possible that the trade stipulation could be construed as bartering, but you'd have to talk to a lawyer about that one.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

October 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
As much as I would like one of those the fact that it's illegal to sell them to a minor makes it an inappropriate cache item.

For exaclty the reasons you pointed out. If they can posses them, you might have an out if you leave the batteries out. Lets see how everyone else comes out on this one.

I did think of this, since I do know people have left knives in caches, even beer in a cache across the Hudson. So I really didn't see that much of a problem by leaving them in the cache. Plus I also thought it would be cool to find a laser pointer in a cache as well.

They come in a small plastic case, with 4 tips and the batteries are included.

quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
Laser pointers are pretty funny with pets. Our cat goes nuts

Act of difiance is my vote. If you didn't log it on the cache page how would anyone know anyway?

We were on a flight once where some teenagers were flashing their laser around the cabin (pre 9/11 mind you). When one hit an attendant in the head with a flash of light, that was the end of that game

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

I think this was the reason as well, and that teems for some reason find it extremely amusing to annoy people with these as well. On the ohter hand, I know adults who will shine these things into their eyes and stare at the beam for minutes on end.

My main concern was not that it was exactly agains the law, but rather more of a ettiquete violation on geocaching rules. But from responses here, it seem like I'm not doing anything that is really illegal or violate geocaching rules.

9.5k · October 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
No why on earth would laser pointers be illegal for a minor to buy?

They can by medications and alcohol laden mouthwash, yet not the little pointers???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

About 4 or 5 years ago, there was a rash of laser pointers being pointed at helicopters here in Washington State, temporarily blinding a couple of pilots. There were also a few police officers whom were targeted by pointers.

I had a laser pointer aimed at me one evening from a darkened house. First at my upper torso, then my head. Scared the heck out of me and I called the police on them. Turned out it was a kid and buddy having some fun. How was I to know that?

The reality is; from shadows to the target, you don't know if that is a laser targeting system for a weapon or just a simple laser pointer. Kids out for fun just can't seem to discern what action is dangerous and what isn't. I remember some of the stupid things I did as a kid. It's no better today except now you have high-tech toys to add to it.

Cheers!

TL

1.3k · October 2, 2003

There are a lot of laser pointers out there. When laser gunsights were first introduced, I actually had one of the old tube type lasers. It was a big clunky thing that took two 9V batteries, and weighed almost as much as the pistol you would mount it on. The thing cost nearly $200 used. That was over a decade ago, and laser sights are a lot smaller (solid state diode lasers), but although the price has dropped, it's still very expensive compared to a $5 laser pointer available at any gas station or convenience store. There are a lot more pointers than true gunsights out there, so much so that the chances of the red dot you see actually leading to a gun are pretty slim. That still doesn't excuse dangerous mischief.

Banning the sale of pointers to kids is ridiculous. One day there will be a law against having a cold in public.

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

38.2k · October 2, 2003

Never mind lazer pointers, I say ban toys. I've found toys in caches that were only suitable for children over 4. What if dad and his seven year son old find one and they bring it home and their two year old chokes to death on it?

Come on people, have some common sense! Leave a toy in a cache and a child can die!

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

1.3k · October 2, 2003

Testify!

There's nothing that can't be misused. Even a Nerf ball.

2.3k · October 2, 2003

As long as possession by a minor is not a crime, feel free to place the pointers in a cache. For those who are worred about eye damage you might goggle "LED Lasers and Eye damage" Interesting reports about the fact that the tiny laser pointer do not damage eyes

I work for the QOFE that works for the Frog

The Frog is my friend

October 2, 2003

Yeah, imagine a 3 year old swallowing a laser pointer!!!

4.8k · October 2, 2003

I think any parent with an ounce of common sense would know the danger involved with a laser.

I always police my four year olds joice of goodies from the cache. Lots of, "yep, yep, nope", going on when we open the box. He's pretty understanding, and most of the time he accepts the verdict. When he sees something he really wants, but I won't let him have it, he usually says, "this ones for you Daddy". At least he can enjoy it vicariously

Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The rest go geocaching.

1.5k · October 2, 2003

Here's the reason...and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

Aside from the fact that they can blind a person, people have been shot over lasers by police officers who believe the laser from a handgun is being pointed at them. Some college students in some dorms near the Tempe PD HQ at ASU hauled their butts off to jail one night. At least one person standing on the balcony of their dorm (pretty high up) was pointing a laser pointer into the police parking lot. The several officers in the lot dropped behind vehicles and drew their weapons. Upon finding the source of the 'dot', the schmuck was arrested and charged. It's now a misdemeanor in Arizona to point them at an officer, and it's extremely stupid to do so, because it's going to be a quick judgement call to shoot someone pointing what could be a weapon at you before they have a chance to do the same thing.

Brian

Team A.I.

October 3, 2003

> Aside from the fact that they can blind a person,

Actually, that possibility is quite low. Laser pointers have a MAXIMUM output of about half a miliwatt. On a lumens per square inch comparison, that's about as bright as a 60 watt light bulb. Pretty bright. Not something you want to shine directly into your eye. But not going to blind you.

I was working once with a 4 watt laser. When you're aligning mirrors you can't be wearing the safety glasses so you can see the beam to allign the mirrors. I made the mistake of turning my head and caught the beam in my eye.

It hurt. I had a headache for the rest of the day. But I was not blinded. I do have a small "spot" in my vision. It's slightly noticable, just a small dirty dot and certainly not debilitating. That's 8,000 times the amount of light you could ever get from even the brightest laser pointers and I have little more than a small point of damage on my retena.

No, the so-called real threat from laser pointers is using them stupidly and getting shot by a cop.

20.7k · October 3, 2003

I agree with those that believe that if it is illegal for minors to posess these items, they should not be placed in caches. I do not believe that the purchase issue is relevent. I would be interested in knowing how TPTB feel about this issue.

October 3, 2003

If I were you I'd use the lasers as part of the cache. Make the first part of a multicache a box where the laser pointer is and coordinates to the next location. The second location could be something mounted where you rest the laser upon. Then you turn on the laser and it points at the 3rd and final location where the real cache is. That could be kinda fun.

--RuffRidr

9.5k · October 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kordite:
> Aside from the fact that they can blind a person,

Actually, that possibility is quite low. Laser pointers have a MAXIMUM output of about half a miliwatt. On a lumens per square inch comparison, that's about as bright as a 60 watt light bulb. Pretty bright. Not something you want to shine directly into your eye. But not going to blind you.

I was working once with a 4 watt laser. When you're aligning mirrors you can't be wearing the safety glasses so you can see the beam to allign the mirrors. I made the mistake of turning my head and caught the beam in my eye.

It hurt. I had a headache for the rest of the day. But I was not blinded. I do have a small "spot" in my vision. It's slightly noticable, just a small dirty dot and certainly not debilitating. That's 8,000 times the amount of light you could ever get from even the brightest laser pointers and I have little more than a small point of damage on my retena.

No, the so-called real threat from laser pointers is using them stupidly and getting shot by a cop.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/89355_500.gif

Ok, but let's put what you say in perspective. I think we can all agree the five dollar laser will not produce permanent blindness, but it is capable of temporary blindness or at the least, temporarily diminished sight. Saying it has the same lumens per square inch as a 60 watt bulb doesn't cover the fact the light is still concentrated to a small 4mm or 5mm dot.

To put that temporary disablement in perspective, it is the equivalent to having dots in your eyes after a flash camera goes off 10 feet from you. It passes, but it takes a small while for your sight to not be diminished. To a driver, and more importantly, to a pilot, that's critical enough. The damage isn't permanent, but the safety factor is impaired.

That study that was mentioned was for short duration or immediate damage. There isn't anything in place for long term issues yet. That inexpensive "toy" is a relatively new phenomenon.

To quote the same source the google search brought up:

quote:
Although few LED sources are capable of causing direct eye damage - unlike intense, highly directional laser beams - there are concerns that the brightness of some could be capable of dazzling those exposed to them. Drivers travelling at night may have noticed that LED traffic lights can be uncomfortably bright to look at, and there have been reports that some LED torches can cause unpleasant dazzling and after-images.

Unfortunately, addressing the safety issues surrounding the increasing use of LEDs will not be easy, and the problem has been somewhat swept under the carpet. No safety guidelines dedicated to LEDs have yet been drawn up and there have been arguments over whether they should be classified as lasers or incoherent sources. What's more, there are conflicting opinions as to how their output should be measured.

So let's not trivialize what the experts cannot yet quantify.

Cheers!

TL

October 3, 2003

At some point, what people do with cache items is really out of your control. I think you should leave the laser pointers if you'd like--it's not your concern, really, as to what happens to them after someone takes them.

_________________________

~ Ryan S Eanes ~

RSEanes.com. Why not?

http://www.rseanes.com

October 3, 2003

A note about pilots and lasers from an FAA employee:

There is a system where pilots can get info about stationary laser shows at things like casinos, rock concerts, grand openings, ect. Most of these laser notices to airmen (NOTAMS) indicate that temporary flash blindness or reduced vision only occur below a few thousand feet, or within a mile or so laterally.

I am sure these types of display lasers are much more powerful than a few milliwatts.

bottom line: Helicopters flying around at a few hundred feet of altitude and/or aircraft on approach to an airport could possibly be affected by a laser to the eye. It is highly unlikely that a small private aircraft above 3000-5000 feet (typical cruising altitudes for small propeller aircraft) is in any danger from your milliwatt pointer. That jetliner at 35,000 feet probably won't be able to distinguish it from any other red light coming from the city, if he can see it at all. I am sure the dot would be several feet across from 6-7 MILES up, and now we are talking LOW power.

Still, It is impolite to tag someone with one of these. That guy you just tagged in the head with it might be an undercover agent trying to penetrate a mob group. He might react unpredictably to having a gunsight like device pointed at his head.

If a knife is safe enough to leave in a cache, I suspect the laser pointer is fine as well. If you are really concerned, make it a multi with the batteries in the next cache. If a kid is bright enough to do a multi, he should be plenty savvy enough not to stick a laser beam in his eye.

5.3k · October 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Gliderguy:
If a knife is safe enough to leave in a cache, I suspect the laser pointer is fine as well.

Uh oh...a different can of worms is opening...

October 3, 2003

> Saying it has the same lumens per square inch as a 60 watt bulb doesn't cover the fact the light is still concentrated to a small 4mm or 5mm dot.

Actually, it does. That's why I said "lumens per square inch".

But this was based on formulae I worked out years ago. I was working with different kinds of lasers of varying intensities and I may be misremembering the numbers.

So, a typical lightbulb is about 3" in diameter. That would give it a surface area of 28 square inches. (4 pi radius squared). A 60 watt light would would produce 2.14 watts per square inch. Since the pupil of the human eye is about a quarter inch in diameter (.20 square inches), sticking a 60 watt light bulb in your eye amounts to about .4 watts.

So, I was actually way off. A 60 watt light bulb held up to your eye is 1,000 times brighter than any laser pointer outputing .5 milliwatts (.0005 watts).

Which only strengthens my assertion that, while laser pointers are bright, they are not vision destroying bright. If they were, laws would have been passed long ago for vision safety reasons. But the laws banning the sales of laser pointers to minors is not to protect eyesight but to prevent mistaken shootings by law enforcement.

5.3k · October 3, 2003

THIS WEB PAGE has some good information on laser classes.

quote:
Class II laser products
Power up to 1 milliwatt. These lasers are not considered a optically dangerous device as the eye reflex will prevent any occular damage. (I.E. when the eye is hit with a bright light, the eye lid will automatically blink or the person will turn thier head so as to remove the bright light. This is called the reflex action or time. Class II lasers won't cause eye damage in this time period. Still, one wouldn't want to look at it for an extended period of time.) Caution labels (yellow) should be placed on the laser equipment. No known skin exposure hazard exist and no fire hazard exist.

And the FDA las issued a warning about these laser pointers:

quote:
FDA Issues Warning on Misuse of Laser Pointers

The Food and Drug Administration is warning parents and school officials about the possibility of eye damage to children from hand-held laser pointers.

These products are generally safe when used as intended by teachers and lecturers to highlight areas on a chart or screen. However, recent price reductions have led to promotion and use of these products as children's toys.

The light energy that pointers can aim into the eye can be more damaging than staring directly into the sun. Federal law requires a warning on the product label about this potential hazard to the eyes.

"These laser pointers are not toys. Parents should treat them with appropriate care," said FDA Lead Deputy Commissioner Michael A Friedman, M.D. "They are useful tools for adults that should be used by children only with adequate supervision."

The FDA's warning is prompted by two anecdotal reports it has received of eye injury from laser pointers -- one from a parent, the other from an ophthalmologist.

Momentary exposure from a laser pointer, such as might occur from an inadvertent sweep of the light across a person's eyes, causes only temporary flash blindness. However, even this can be dangerous if the exposed person is engaged in a vision-critical activity such as driving.

9.5k · October 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kordite:
> Saying it has the same lumens per square inch as a 60 watt bulb doesn't cover the fact the light is still concentrated to a small 4mm or 5mm dot.

Actually, it does. That's why I said "lumens _per square inch_".

But this was based on formulae I worked out years ago. I was working with different kinds of lasers of varying intensities and I may be misremembering the numbers.

So, a typical lightbulb is about 3" in diameter. That would give it a surface area of 28 square inches. (4 pi radius squared). A 60 watt light would would produce 2.14 watts per square inch. Since the pupil of the human eye is about a quarter inch in diameter (.20 square inches), sticking a 60 watt light bulb in your eye amounts to about .4 watts.

So, I was actually way off. A 60 watt light bulb held up to your eye is _1,000 times brighter_ than any laser pointer outputing .5 milliwatts (.0005 watts).

Which only strengthens my assertion that, while laser pointers are bright, they are not vision destroying bright. If they were, laws would have been passed long ago for vision safety reasons. But the laws banning the sales of laser pointers to minors is not to protect eyesight but to prevent mistaken shootings by law enforcement.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/89355_500.gif

Ok. I misread your original note. However, I didn't say they were vision destroying. I didn't imply the damage done was permanent. I did say they do temporarily blind or disable your vision (flash blindness is a good term) as Stunrod's quote of the FDA warning exemplifies. That was all my assertion was. They are a focused light and some are very effective at several hundred feet. I know this from personal experience.

Don't make assumptions that laws would have been passed on these items based on vision safety. That only happens when it benefits the politician in some manner. As pointed out earlier, the experts can't even agree on how to quantify the effects in terms of brightness and damage. You really expect a politician to pass a law on something that might make them look foolish and lose their constituents' confidence? They can't even really come to terms with cell phone usage while driving.

Again, until the experts can quantify the effects with long term studies, what do we really know of it? Only short term anecdotes and perceptions.

Cheers!

TL

October 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
As much as I would like one of those the fact that it's illegal to sell them to a minor makes it an inappropriate cache item.

I visited a cache a couple days ago and was surprised to discover that I'd already visited it months ago and had forgotten to log it. Doh!

At any rate, I read my original log in the book and noticed someone had written a snooty little reply.

I had put a VERY small pocket knife in the cache...the blades were barely an inch long...and mentioned this in the log.

Someone drew an arrow to this entry and wrote: "Within a half mile of two schools? NOT SMART!"

I found this very surprising. If a kid wanted to do in a classmate, wouldn't it be easier to grab a steak knife at home than to use the micro-knife in the cache?

I can see the headlines, "DANGEROUS WEAPONS LEFT IN WOODS FOR CHILDREN TO FIND"

What's next? All students are kept in straight-jackets 24/7 and have small brain implants to keep them from having dangerous or impure thoughts?

On the other hand, I can understand the PR and perception thing. So I took the knife back out.

Oddly, the person who complained didn't take the knife. So they wanted to complain but didn't want to be responsible for solving what they obviously viewed as a problem.

In eithr case...

Was I wrong to leave the knife? Right? Depends on the situation? No right or wrong answer? Personal judgement? Was I right to take it back out?

October 4, 2003

I guess tech. its not supposed to be done. There are people that have left multi-tools with knives on them in cache's as thier sig item. It's really up to you, it didn't sound like that was any bigger than the ones we've run into. If it bothers you the thought that accidently some young child might run across the cache', plunder it and run off with the knife and its got your name in the log book as leaving it, then, don't. We've taken multi-tools that have come in handy camping and we do cache' with our 4 kids. We only leave our sig items and kid type toys. The multi-tool knives are sharp, I found out cutting a piece of rope, I was quite suprised, while I was bleeding all over.

But, here we run onto parents that cache' with kids, monitoring what they take, if by happenstance a child finds by accident, thats out of our control. I don't have a problem with it, but I see the other side of the issue.

4.5k · October 4, 2003

Parents should watch their children who are caching with them. For youngsters caching alone (how many could that actually be?), I'd be more concerned they're out there alone in the woods without telling anyone or could get lost or hurt from a fall and not be able to get out. That's the real danger here. Otherwise this is a "tempest in a teapot".

Must be raining out; nothing else to do but speculate in the forums

Alan

2.3k · October 5, 2003

In California, it appears it is illegal to sell to a minor, or for a minor to possess out of a school or without an adult. Its illegal for anyone to point it at law enforcement, police dogs, or anyone's eyes. There is a fine or community service for violations.

At a swap meet recently, someone had a box of pointers and they probably sold to any age persons. New pointers with 2 AAA cells for $1 each seemed like a good price. They work well and I have already placed them in caches ( which appears legal here).

October 5, 2003

I was at recently at WalMart here in Napa, and I 14 year old girl was buying school supplies. Turns out they wouldn't let her buy the white-out because she was under 18. I quietly told her to wait for me in the lobby and bought it for her.

Put the laser pointers in the cache, or use them as your signature item. I'd trade for one if I found it in a cache.

_______________________________

Vegetarian is Indian word for bad hunter

http://www.geocities.com/cacheinon

2.9k · October 15, 2003

I recently bought one of these.

Never had a laser before I got this one for my telescope.

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Pictures of the insides of my Old GPS V

My Home Page about what is GPS

Strange

Exchanging for "illegal" items?

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