swaits Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Hi all, Newbie here.. I'm starting out at 1 for 5 - not so great. Went for three along a railroad track today. One of them was somewhere up on a hillside - I don't mind missing that one. But the other two should have been right next to the tracks. I suspect they were buried - maybe not only under the "track gravel", but possibly even deeper. Is this common for these types of marks located near railroad tracks? [The three I went for were DC1190, DC1192, and DC1193] BTW - I was on a MTB so had no digging tools with me. Thanks, Steve Quote Link to comment
ArtMan Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 DC1190 might, from the description, be hard to find, possibly buried. DC1192 is set at a 36-inch pipe culvert; did you see the culvert? If that's covered in ballast, it might be easy to brush away. DC1193 is described as 27 feet lower than the track, but your log says you climbed up. Also, this is in the headwall of a bridge - probably pretty easy to identify the structure. I'm guessing that you're making the common newbie mistake of blindly following your GPS. Note the fine print near the top of the benchmark page "Coordinates may not be exact. Altitude is VERTCON and location is SCALED." These types of marks are set for accuracy in their altitude. Their horizontal position - latitude and longitude - is only approximated, regardless of the apparent precision of the numbers given. If you click on the "view original datasheet" link, you'll see that the position is given only to whole seconds of lat and long, followed by the disclaimer "The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds." IMHO this should be more prominently noted on the geocaching.com page. You are not the first person to make this error. Not by a long shot. I suggest that in the case of these scaled benchmarks, you rely on your GPS to get you to the general vicinity - sometimes it will be spot on - but that you then use the description to orient yourself to the precise location of the mark. You might have more success that way. And watch out when you are on RR property! Good luck, and welcome to the hunt! ~ArtMan PS - what is MTB? Quote Link to comment
+E = Mc2 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 PS - what is MTB? I THINK it means MounTain Bike. I could be wrong however... Quote Link to comment
swaits Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 Hi, Thanks for the advice. Next time I'll bring along the data sheets. I never saw the culvert - and on the other one, there was a bridge, probably 200' away. Not sure if that's the one described, or if I missed another bridge. My (only) find was a case where the GPS did walk me right up to a very obvious disk set in concrete. So, I probably got off on the wrong foot - thinking the GPS would do most, or all, of the work for me. Know what you mean about being around RR tracks. The local commuter train snuck up on me. Heard whining (tracks), looked up and behind, and boom, there it was. I was 15' away from the tracks - still, surprising how quiet and fast those things go. Thanks, Steve (Yes, moutain bike) Quote Link to comment
+Colorado Papa Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Is this common for these types of marks located near railroad tracks? It sure is. Elevation was very important to the route railroads followed so it was the obvious place to place benchmarks about every mile. Take a look at all the benchmarks along the old Denver and Rio Grand from JL0006 to JL0034 as an example. Also notice how the GPS coordinates are different from the posted coordinates. I suggest you keep your distance from active tracks. It isn't that important to find a BM while losing a life. Quote Link to comment
Z15 Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Not to mention, railroads take a dim view of people on their ROW. I worked for the DOT for 30 yrs and had interaction with many RR workers. We always sought permission to go on the RR's to look for any survey marks. I would stay off of active Railroads, you could find yourself in jail as most all RR's do not tolerate trespassing. You are treading into dangerous territory, not to mention being suspected of being a terrorist. Edited September 7, 2004 by elcamino Quote Link to comment
mloser Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I am thinking DC1190 might be gone. From looking at a Topozone map and reading the description, I think it would be located somewhere in the area of the Interstate 5 overpass or ramps. The road described is the one that goes under I-5 and has been shifted to the northeast to accomodate the overpass so it would be impossible to use it to measure. I suspect the only valid measurements would be from the railroad tracks--258 1/2 feet southwest of the tracks and 326 1/2 feet southwest of a pole across the tracks (don't get run over!). Is there a fence or house in the area? I suspect they were removed when I-5 was built. This would be a pretty cool find. Even though it was first described in 1955, the fact that it is a granite post with carved letters hints that it is much older, maybe even turn of the century. Artman is right about the culvert. It might be somewhat covered by ballast. You should find tiny stream or dry runoff bed under the tracks. Since the top of the culvert is 4 feet below track level the roadbed should slope pretty sharply down at this point. The culvert is numbered (A251) as are all railroad bridges and tunnels, but the number may be hard to see. It is often painted on the structure and has weathered away. Another clue is that the culvert is 3 1/2 poles southeast of milepost 251 (the culvert number IS related to the mile marker, by the way). If you can find the milepost, which means the railroad hasn't changed their measurement criteria, you can walk 3 1/2 telegraph/telephone poles down the track and the culvert should be near. The numbers 251 should be marked very obviously trackside in reflective letters set on a post. Has Caltrans done a lot of work on these tracks to make them ready for commuter service, especially adding tracks? If so, this culvert may be gone. Artman is also correct about DC1193. From looking at the map I think the bridge is not large and is across a feeder for a stream that is north of the tracks. I am a bit confused about the description because it says it is on the headwall but is 27 feet lower than the track. If the elevation is correct you would be way below track level. The description says the distance from the south rail is 58.3 feet "sloping measurement" which means the measurement was taken down the slope from the rail and is not a true horizontal measurement. This corroborates the "27 feet lower" part of the description, so I would start looking there. Take the descriptions with you--they are the key to locating the marks, as well as a 100' tape, a compass, a shovel, and something to push aside brush and weeds. Never rely only on your GPSr if the measurements are scaled, and research first if you can. Links from the pages here will show you various maps that might provide visual clues to the marks. Also, try USAPhotoMaps (USAPhotoMaps) to help your research. And watch for Caltrans police! Railroad police are often very aggressive in picking up trespassers, and they have FULL rights to arrest and fine. They are NOT security forces but actual recognized police departments. Good Luck! Matt Quote Link to comment
evenfall Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) I have to triple the warning about Railroad Right of Way recovery work. Reading of your close encounter with the train had me thinking Oh No... Nothing personal, it just happens real fast as you learned. Post 9/11 the Railroads mean Business. They changed the way they regard trespassers. If you do not have a company Badge, not to mention the requisite Safety gear on, which is a dead give away that you do not belong on the property, you are subject to being treated as if you may be a Terrorist. If a K9 Officer finds you, you may be a Chew Toy until the Handler finds you. It used to be they just ran people of, as many Rail Fans ambled onto rail road property to take photos. Liability is an issue for them also, as people are run over by trains a lot more often than they used to be. The advent of modern diesel power and welded ribbon rail has quieted trains down a lot in the oncoming aspect. People walk the rails without being aware that a train has come up behind them. ElCamino is absolutely correct, when we want something off railroad property, we are completely at their behest and it is totally at their convienience after they give permission. Permission also means that you will likely be provided an escort, taken off another job to babysit a visitor. In some cases you may have to go through a contractor safety certification before they will allow you to do anything. I know this can be the case with BNSF. You will not roam free at your whim, (I would advise having the REAL NGS Datasheet with you, not the Geocaching one) and you will do your business and leave. I am sorry, but post 9/11 Trespassing on RR property is super frowned on. Otherwise, I would just advise you and anybody these days to think on it hard. It is the times we are now in, and benchmarking is not meant to be that much of a drag. The only other thing I hope will stick in anyones mind is that when you are hunting Bench Marks or Geocaches near public infrastructure, Please, Think about where you are. People in cars and trucks Rarely slow down for us with Safety gear on and cones all around us. In an near sheet metal at high speed when you are only flesh and bones. People are driving with things on their mind, Cell phones in thier ears and kids in the back seats. You will find that the mentality is such that you are in their way, not the other way around. There are laws about pedestrians but I assure you, a pedestian is an unwelcome visitor to that realm, just the same. You just have to plan for the worst place scenario, along with an exit strategy. Some of us work in the field and have developed a sixth sense but not everyone has, so when you are out there be on your best awareness, don't wear your walkman or iPod, keep your eyes and ears and neck moving, look behind you and listen listen listen... That will help keep you safe. I would even advocate a safety vest or shirt in some locations. You just never know, it can happen so fast. Sorry all, I don't mean to harp or preach, and I probably sound that way, but this is all too true and real. I want us all to live, and come back in one piece, with no new criminal records. I have never read of a mishap as yet, but at the same time, I hope I never do. Edited September 7, 2004 by evenfall Quote Link to comment
swaits Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 All, Thanks. I think I'm done with RR's --Steve Quote Link to comment
motoed Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I would stay off of active Railroads, you could find yourself in jail as most all RR's do not tolerate trespassing. You are treading into dangerous territory, not to mention being suspected of being a terrorist. As an FYI and follow up to this:: I have two friends who got a $200 fine each for doing some photography on/near some tracks on the Rockville Bridge. Quote Link to comment
+seventhings Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Eliminate duplicated post. Edited September 7, 2004 by seventhings Quote Link to comment
+seventhings Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I recommend that you (whomever, everybody) wear reflective vests and an orange hunting hat whenever hunting benchmarks on roads, medians or rights-of-way. This has two advantages: in addition to the obvious increase in life expectancy, the gear makes you look less like an eccentric goofball poking around in the weeds and more like somebody who is on the job. Yesterday I was using a metal detector in the median of Rte 28 near Manassas, VA. A county cop came by to do a U-turn at the crossover and gave me a nod ("Both of us working on Labor Day. Bummer!") as he waited for a break in the traffic. A good selection of safety gear is available at Forestry Suppliers Will p.s. - Occassionally, I go on to RR ROWs, but only under ideal circumstances and only when I have a real good getaway route. Quote Link to comment
+PFF Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 With many railroad tracks being removed, what's the success rate for finding stations along abandonded roadbeds? I realize this may be complicated by the property reverting to private ownership. However, some have been incorporated into the rails-to-trails program. Is it worth looking in these old rail routes? Paul Quote Link to comment
+Colorado Papa Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Is it worth looking in these old rail routes? You better believe it! I haven't been keeping count but I'm sure about half of my recoveries have been along old rail routes including those that were abandoned more than fifty years ago. What really makes it interesting is reading about the old railroads, like the Short Line, for example. I used to think it was only a square on the Monopoly board until I found out it was a real railroad right here where I live! Quote Link to comment
Bill93 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Early in this thread, there was mention of the large discrepancies seen in scaled coordinates. Scaled means somebody plotted it by description on a map and then used a scale to read the Lat Long values. I plot the difference between the listed and my measured coordinates for the marks of a given era I find in a given county, and find the average offset. Then when looking for another mark of that type, I apply that offset to the listed coordinates so I start closer to the right place. It can mean the difference in picking the right culvert or unnamed cross street. Locally the 1930's marks tend to be found 150 feet NW of the published values. Despite the 6 second tolerance quoted, I have found the majority of the marks to be within a little more than plus or minus one second, after adjusting with this offset. The offset changes significantly around the state, and then occasionally you get the zinger that is off the full 6 seconds. Pay close attention to the date of the mark and whether it is scaled or adjusted. Triangulation and intersection stations are adjusted, and will almost always be within handheld GPS accuracy. Newer marks will often be scaled from a more accurate map than the old ones. Quote Link to comment
foxtrot_xray Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 With many railroad tracks being removed, what's the success rate for finding stations along abandonded roadbeds? I realize this may be complicated by the property reverting to private ownership. However, some have been incorporated into the rails-to-trails program. Is it worth looking in these old rail routes? Paul I work for a railroad, and got permission to find the 70 or so benchmarks put in along our line. (Between '32 and '34).. Most of them are gone now, and you'll find this very, very common alonmg ROW's, for a few reasons - Tracks get upgraded and rebedded. More ballast covers the Mark, making it near impossible to find (even WITH a locator, because of all the errant iron bits). Tracks will also get realigned alot of times. Or get a second main put in, or taken out. This changes any directions using the tracks for reference. Lastly, many descriptions use mile markers and signal numbers (which are also miles along the ROW) - signals in service then are more than likely no longer in service now, and mile markers could and may have changed. Also, keep in mind that railroad ARE requested to 'turn in' suspicious activity to the *groan* Homeland Security.. Me. Quote Link to comment
mrh - terre haute Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Swaits: Are you doing many mtb + benchmarking trips? I've done several up to 4.5 hours in duration. Great way to overlap hobbies. I just ordered a metal detector I can throw in the backpack for those stubborn marks that just don't want to be found. Definitely use the descriptions. So far the farthest off I've found was 280' but I have read elsewhere on the Forum of "founds" that were nine miles off the coords. Ride on! Quote Link to comment
Cape Cod Cacher Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Just a couple quick thoughts... Take a look at the 'Trains Magazine' site for some of their railfanning tips, they are post 9/11 paranoia. Try looking for a 'tourist train', many have volunteers that used to work on the rail lines when they were commercially used that are more than happy to help you with any part of the rail's history. Rail-trails are a cool place to look, most of the rail here is gone, some converted for biker/hikers, others just cut between streets. The only commercial use around here is a tourist train, and a twice daily train that takes trash off Cape, the crews are pretty friendly and wave. Common sense dictates, I wouldn't run around MBTA tracks (or your local equivalent) Quote Link to comment
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