Northeast Premium Member Only Caches

[avroair]

I was looking around the Northeast at caches and noticed a couple of Premium Member only caches. (the ones only open to premium members). There are barely any.

 

What are your thoughts about premium caches?

 

Also, are you a premium member why or why not?

It's $29 a year for a subscription.

 

Best $29 I've spent in the last year!

Edited August 27, 2004 by avroair

[BassoonPilot]

I was looking around the Northeast at caches and noticed a couple of Premium Member only caches. (the ones only open to premium members). There are barely any.

 

What are your thoughts about premium caches?

As someone who once owned a few MOCs, I offer these observations:

 

1. Except in the case of offset, puzzle, or multicache MOCs, it is no more of a challenge for a non-paying member to determine the location of the MOC than it would be for them to solve any of the "triangulation-style" caches.

 

2. All one is doing is denying a finder the ability to log a "smiley." Non-paying members join paying-members on group hunts in order to find the MOC, or a paying-member simply gives his/her non-paying member buddy a copy of the cache page.

 

3. The ability for the owner of the MOC to see who had viewed the cache page via the "Audit Trail" was a most popular and sought after feature. Unfortunately, it was quickly discovered that the audit trail could be circumvented. It was a major flaw that largely undermined the value of MOCs.

 

4. Historically, with very few exceptions there has been nothing "premium" about MOCs outside of their designation as MOCs. From these forums, I have observed that in some regions, people have purchased one month memberships whenever a few MOCs appear in their area. $3 or $6 per year is an even more attractive option. In the metro NY region, that would be an absolutely incredible bargain, where one can easily pay 3 or 4 times that amount in tolls simply in order to seek caches just a few miles from home.

 

I conclude, therefore, that although the MOC concept was an interesting one, it has failed to "deliver as promised."

Edited August 27, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[+mogolloyd]

My cache(first hide) I will be hiding this week I will probably make a MOC because of the value of the contents, and the attempt to keep the trade items on a little higher notch than what you normally find. A little stingy? Maybe, but it's my cache, and my decision.

[avroair]

I conclude, therefore, that although the MOC concept was an interesting one, it has failed to "deliver as promised."

 

Buy it does allow you the ability to look and see who has viewed your cache page, a very powerful tool when someone is messing with your caches.

[+BMSquared]

I am a Premium Member. I live by the electronic log cache pages available through the GPX downloads and Pocket Queries.

 

I only tried one Member Only Cache. I had forgotten to bring the cache sheet and accidently brought the wife. I never did make it to the cache.

 

I like the idea of a little cooler booty in Premium Members only Caches, but I don't think I would ever conciously seek one out.

[+briansnat]

I place my caches to be found and making them MOC cuts down on the number of potential finders. I made a few of my caches MOC during the cache pirate period to see if it would help.

 

What I really like is the MOC audit feature, where you can see who viewed your page and how many times. It was interesting to find out that people all over the country check out cache pages in NJ and some people view your pages dozens of times. One guy had over 100 views of my Long Pond Ironworks cache, but never searched for it. Odd. I wish they had this feature for all subscriber owned caches.

 

The idea that making a cache MOC will keep the quality of the contents higher is flawed. Just because someone is a member doesn't mean they are any better or worse than other geocachers when it comes to trading. I noticed a very lame trade at one of my caches not long ago...by a member (No, it wasn't anybody who frequents this forum, so don't wonder if it was you).

 

I became a member the day that charter memberships were announced. Knowing that I was using the services of this site and that it costs a good chunk of change to run it, I felt that it was something I should do. I didn't use any of the subscriber features for quite some time after I joined, but now I can't live without pocket queries.

Edited August 27, 2004 by briansnat

[+The Leprechauns]

We don't have many MOC's in Tri-Go territory (Southwest PA/Eastern Ohio/Northern West Virginia/Western Maryland). As in, none within 75 miles or so, except for one joke cache specifically set up to be "elitist."

 

I guess myself, and other active hiders in my area, are more interested in having as many visitors to our caches as possible. But, I'd respect anyone else's right to take advantage of the membership benefit, and I've logged quite a few MOC's, usually without even knowing they're a MOC until going to the cache page to log my find. That's usually my *first* visit to the cache page, since all my planning is done offline using pocket queries.

 

And therein lies my other point. MOC's offer only a thin line of protection, like a ventilated condom, against cache pirates or whatever you wish to call them. If a maggot is a premium member, the maggot can obtain all necessary info. about your MOC through a pocket query without ever visiting the cache page and showing up on the audit log.

 

I reserve the right to instantly change all of the above opinions if a cache maggot ever targets Southwestern Pennsylvania. So far we have never had that problem. I sympathize with any reasonable action taken by a cache owner to protect their caches in a maggot-infested area.

[+briansnat]

If a maggot is a premium member, the maggot can obtain all necessary info. about your MOC through a pocket query without ever visiting the cache page and showing up on the audit log.

 

 

Great, thanks for letting them all know .

[+The Leprechauns]

Right. This is the first time this secret has *ever* been published in the forums. Should I also disclose how to pinpoint the locations of unapproved caches when they have travel bugs? That'd be another news item.

[koz]

don't like the idea...we're one big happy dysfunctional family, right?...some of us are just poor and/or cheap...don't have to rub it in....

[BassoonPilot]

Buy it does allow you the ability to look and see who has viewed your cache page, a very powerful tool when someone is messing with your caches.

I guess you read the first and last lines of my post but skipped the information in between.

[BassoonPilot]

And therein lies my other point. MOC's offer only a thin line of protection, like a ventilated condom, against cache pirates or whatever you wish to call them. If a maggot is a premium member, the maggot can obtain all necessary info. about your MOC through a pocket query without ever visiting the cache page and showing up on the audit log.

Here's another "secret" that hasn't been aired publicly ... every cache in the system has an audit trail TPTB can reference at any time they choose. Though never directly mentioned, it has obviously been used in the past to level what apparently turned out to be false and baseless accusations at people.

[+briansnat]

And therein lies my other point.  MOC's offer only a thin line of protection, like a ventilated condom, against cache pirates or whatever you wish to call them.  If a maggot is a premium member, the maggot can obtain all necessary info. about your MOC through a pocket query without ever visiting the cache page and showing up on the audit log.

Here's another "secret" that hasn't been aired publicly ... every cache in the system has an audit trail TPTB can reference at any time they choose. Though never directly mentioned, it has obviously been used in the past to level what apparently turned out to be false and baseless accusations at people.

They can only audit cache page views for users who are logged into the website. If a user looks at the cache without logging in, there is no audit trail.

Edited August 27, 2004 by briansnat

[BassoonPilot]

They can only audit cache page views for users who are logged into the website. If a user looks at the cache without logging in, there is no audit trail.

It sure helps if the people that viewed the page were logged in, but that is not the only way. I would agree it is by far the easier and more accurate way.

Edited August 27, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[avroair]

Okay so if people can 'skip' past the audits, are there ANY advantages to MOCs? from the posts so far, seems they only come with disadvantages.

 

And yes, I did read the whole e-mail just choose what i wanted to respond to.

[BassoonPilot]

Okay so if people can 'skip' past the audits, are there ANY advantages to MOCs? from the posts so far, seems they only come with disadvantages.

I can't think of any advantage a MOC has over a difficult hike or challenge. If the intent of a MOC is to exclude people or reserve special prizes for certain people, then one might as well create a "private cache" and not list it on GC.com until the members of the "target audience" have completed the cache. At that point, the community-at-large could claim any "sloppy seconds" and the target audience could claim their "smilies."

Edited August 27, 2004 by BassoonPilot

[+macatac1961]

About an hour after I found this website, I was back at the computer sending in my $29 and logging my first cache, so I'm not sure of the difference between paying and non-paying members... other than the topo's and PQ's. But when it comes to MOC's, I don't understand the reasoning because I like each e-mail I get from a find on one of my caches. I wouldn't want to restrict who can find it. Seems like it goes against the reasons for hiding one in the first place.

Edited August 27, 2004 by macatac1961

[+fosterbass]

Like Macatac, I joined very quickly after finding the site so MOC's aren't my reason for being here. I do like the idea though. I took a caching friend to a MOC and when he tried to log it and saw he couldn't, he send in his money.

 

Tomorrow I'm planning to grab one or two of GWHO's member's only caches in the Palisades.

[+ski]

I have two MOCs in the same park down here in Cape May. Both are very hard and would probably not be suitable for the usual tourist or family cachers that frequent the area. I only had the best interests of the wildlife area and the safety of geocaching visitors in mind when designating the caches as MOC.

When the proposed trail upgrades occur in that park I will probably discontinue the MOC designation.

[+lostinjersey]

Tomorrow I'm planning to grab one or two of GWHO's member's only caches in the Palisades.

 

WOOWOO! Finally!

 

I can't think of any advantage a MOC has over a difficult hike or challenge. If the intent of a MOC is to exclude people or reserve special prizes for certain people, then one might as well create a "private cache" and not list it on GC.com until the members of the "target audience" have completed the cache. At that point, the community-at-large could claim any "sloppy seconds" and the target audience could claim their "smilies."

 

There are two different ways to look at it, and this is the negative way. A more positive way is to reward paying members for having done so. I look at it like when you download software that has only limited features enabled. yeah it works, but when you pay for the full version you get the cooler stuff. People who want the basics, get the basic. People who want full features and access, get that. I don't think it's elitists at all (not your words, those are mine, but I know some people view it that way, thus my choice of language.)

 

All one is doing is denying a finder the ability to log a "smiley." Non-paying members join paying-members on group hunts in order to find the MOC, or a paying-member simply gives his/her non-paying member buddy a copy of the cache page.

 

But that's the point. I don't think MOC were ever meant to be harder then regular caches. You don't get the smiley. See above comments. and yes, basic members can go on hunts with other who hand them the page, but how do they log it?

 

I conclude, therefore, that although the MOC concept was an interesting one, it has failed to "deliver as promised."

 

I would agree that premium memberships have faield to deliver as promised because there aren't that many "premium features". As for MOC caches, I'm really unclear why you feel that they haven't delivered? What were your expectations? I suspect you anticpated harder caches, and if thats what you expected, well yeah, i then I can see where you might've been disapointed, but... was that really the point? I never expected anything but a cache that was restricted to who could access it. And thats exactly what it is. Maybe I have low expectations? >shrug<

 

3. The ability for the owner of the MOC to see who had viewed the cache page via the "Audit Trail" was a most popular and sought after feature. Unfortunately, it was quickly discovered that the audit trail could be circumvented. It was a major flaw that largely undermined the value of MOCs.

 

>scratches head< maybe I shouldn't be asking (or maybe no one should answer me publically) but how can that be done? if you have to be a premium member to see it, and you have to log in so the system *knows* you are premium member... how can you view it if you're not logged in? One post mentioned pocket queeries. so they don't show up on the list of those who have viewed? if thats the case isnt there a fix?

Edited August 29, 2004 by Gwho

[BassoonPilot]

There are two different ways to look at it, and this is the negative way.

There are more than two ways. Every issue is not black or white. For example, there is also the ever popular "ambivalent way." If a MOC is not of superior quality to a "basic" cache in any way, and might actually be inferior to a "basic" cache in every way, then why bother seeking it? (It would appear that has been the attitude many subscribing members have taken to many of the MOCs in existence.)

 

If, however, the "negative way" takes into consideration the weaknesses and shortcomings inherent to MOCs while the "positive way" ignores them or pretends they don't exist, I would relabel them "the realistic way" and the "foolish way," respectively.

 

As for MOC caches, I'm really unclear why you feel that they haven't delivered? What were your expectations?

 

My original post to this thread answered those questions.

One post mentioned pocket queeries.

 

It was your post from a couple of years back about some caches along the Hackensack River.

[monsieur sock puppet]

Edited August 31, 2004 by monsieur sock puppet

[Hart Climbs]

I don't mind the Member's only caches - I just feel excluded at the "female only" caches (even though the cache containers are typically much better decorated).

 

"What do we want.....JUSTICE......When do we want it.....NOW!"

[+HartClimbs]

I don't mind the Member's only caches - I just feel excluded at the "female only" caches (even though the cache containers are typically much better decorated).

 

"What do we want.....JUSTICE......When do we want it.....NOW!"

Sheesh - maybe we need "sock puppet only" caches.

[+NJ Admin]

Why does my post say Hart Climbs?

[+JMBella]

Why does my post say Hart Climbs?