Where Do Member Fees Go?

[Pantalaimon]

If this needs to be moved to an appropriate place, I'll understand of course. Honestly, I didn't know exactly where to pose this question.

 

I'm not looking for a cent by cent breakdown, and I question whether I'll get any useful answers whatsoever, but:

 

When a Member of Geocaching.com pays their $3.00 per month, or $30.00 per year, where does that money go? How much is (or do you think is) operating expenses, how much is profit? Who profits, if anyone?

 

I ask because I was a paying member back in the Charter times, when I was enthusiastic about GC.com and Groundspeak in general. Since those times of my youth I've become disillusioned about certain things. So, I've been on the fence about renewing my membership. This is just a little bit of information that may help me on my way to a decision.

 

Anyone have anything useful to say?

 

Thanks,

Pan

[+Doc-Dean]

If this needs to be moved to an appropriate place, I'll understand of course. Honestly, I didn't know exactly where to pose this question.

 

I'm not looking for a cent by cent breakdown, and I question whether I'll get any useful answers whatsoever, but:

 

When a Member of Geocaching.com pays their $3.00 per month, or $30.00 per year, where does that money go? How much is (or do you think is) operating expenses, how much is profit? Who profits, if anyone?

 

I ask because I was a paying member back in the Charter times, when I was enthusiastic about GC.com and Groundspeak in general. Since those times of my youth I've become disillusioned about certain things. So, I've been on the fence about renewing my membership. This is just a little bit of information that may help me on my way to a decision.

 

Anyone have anything useful to say?

 

Thanks,

Pan

You are on the forums, it you were looking for someone to give you something useful, you'd want to look elsewhere...

[Pantalaimon]

Ouch.

 

I imagine I wouldn't get much from the most appropriate place to look.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Pantalaimon

[+fly46]

You see, it's all directly related to Signal the Frog..

Every month, membership fees are collected to supply a fresh supply of flies to the frogs that she keeps hidden in an unused closet in the Groundspeak building. She's hoping to find her long lost prince...

 

Of course, this reason is also why I won't pay... It would be like being an accessory to canabalism.

[Pipanella]

I think probably the answer is obvious, but it's a fair question. If people want to support a cause, they should know what their money is being used for.

 

From the website:

 

A Groundspeak Premium Membership provides you with additional features that a normal (free) membership does not provide. Through Pocket Queries you can bulk download caches based on precise search criteria, have the ability to create and view member-only caches, and have additional power-user options in the Groundspeak forums.

 

Not to mention, you'll be contributing to the support and maintainence of the Geocaching.com site. Thanks!

[+CO Admin]

Ouch.

 

I imagine I wouldn't get much from the most appropriate place to look.

My first thought is some of that money goes to run the Forums and the Site. Questions on profit I would imagine will not get answered. I don't know of any privately held company that publishes that information as it isn't anyones business but the owners. I would think that the Bandwidth fees alone are enormous.

 

The bigger question, to me, is do I get my moneys worth. The answer to me is YES YES YES. even before I became a volunteer cache reviewer I was getting much more than my $30.00 a year worth just in the forums alone.

 

None of the above was intended to be flippant or rude. Simply a statement of information as I perceive it to be.

[+EraSeek]

I'm a paid member and always have been. I use very few of the member features available. Must of the funds go into servers and such, but if Jeremy can find a way to stuff any of it into his pocket, all the better. I pay every year as a thank you simply to support this site and what Jeremy has acomplished.

[+butche]

I used to be a paid member too.

I am not sure where you would get an answer to your question.

I think a lot of people would like to know

[+welch]

When a Member of Geocaching.com pays their $3.00 per month, or $30.00 per year, where does that money go? How much is (or do you think is) operating expenses, how much is profit? Who profits, if anyone?

 

Anyone have anything useful to say?

 

Don't know, Groundspeak doesn't say. Sometimes after the fact they'll say something like 'paid members at work' when things are replaced or updated. But otherwise, no word on how many paid memberships, or how much merchandise.

As for profit or loss and how much, hard to say. If they doesn't release info about what is taken in, and nothing about what is paid out (though there have been a few points about how many page view per month etc), then all you can have is a lot of guesstimates. My guess who gets the profits if any, would be whoever owns/controls Grounded Inc (Groundspeak's legal name right??).

 

Useful tip: Your gpsr will work better if it has batteries in it

[Kyul_and_Carbon]

I run a very small website with only a max on 15 gig of bandwidth transfer a month and I pay 10 a month to maintain it.... so my guess is - with the loads of bandwidth used if they are buying the server space, money goes there. Else, it's going to go payback the person who bought the server to support the website.

 

Domains are about 15 bucks a year.

 

My guess.. fees are going back to the owner so he is getting some form of a paycheck to sit and run a website. That's not a bad thing - think... ebay or paypal or any site that got so big that the owner would have to quit any form of a "real life" job to maintain.

 

Keeping a website this large up and running and constantly working and up to date with technology is a full time job... so it's probably a paycheck.

 

*shrugs*

[+Cherokeecacher]

Salaries, equipment, and bandwith are my guesses as to where the money goes.

[+Butano]

I am sure that some (most?) of the money goes into operating expenses such as maintaining the computers and paying for bandwidth. And of course Signal has to eat . But so do Jeremy and all the team that put so much time and effort into this web site (I'm under the impression full time). I think that Geocaching.com and Groundspeak are probably their primary source of income, or at least a significant portion of it. If they are getting a paycheck out of putting in a day's work, all the better. I sure wouldn't run this sight making enough just to cover the costs. The continuing flow of enhancements shows that something continues to happen up there. I believe that they are trying to give us all the best experience they can for everyone in general. But you can't please everyone, so there will always be one of those that complain. For $30 a year, and that is optional, I think that I am getting much more than my money's worth out of it, where ever the money is going. Thanks Jeremy AND COMPANY!

[+Bjorn74]

Although it may seem more like a contribution (and feel like it, for that matter) a premium membership is a subscription. It's not a 501©(3) contribution that you might demand to know where money is going. You're not an investor trying to determine proper share price and divident yield. It's a $30 annual subscription. As the consumer, you need to determine value. The market will (supposedly) determine cost and benefit.

 

That it's only $3/mth. or $30/yr. seems misleading. But it's still a subscription no matter how you slice it. You should be asking the same questions you ask about your cell service, newspaper, magazines, or parking lot.

 

Just my opinion, anyway. But I run a couple sites that have subscription options, I may be biased.

[Pipanella]

Although it may seem more like a contribution (and feel like it, for that matter) a premium membership is a subscription. It's not a 501©(3) contribution that you might demand to know where money is going. You're not an investor trying to determine proper share price and divident yield. It's a $30 annual subscription. As the consumer, you need to determine value. The market will (supposedly) determine cost and benefit.

 

That it's only $3/mth. or $30/yr. seems misleading. But it's still a subscription no matter how you slice it. You should be asking the same questions you ask about your cell service, newspaper, magazines, or parking lot.

 

Just my opinion, anyway. But I run a couple sites that have subscription options, I may be biased.

That was very well put.

[Pantalaimon]

Although it may seem more like a contribution (and feel like it, for that matter) a premium membership is a subscription.  It's not a 501©(3) contribution that you might demand to know where money is going.  You're not an investor trying to determine proper share price and divident yield.  It's a $30 annual subscription.  As the consumer, you need to determine value.  The market will (supposedly) determine cost and benefit.

 

That it's only $3/mth. or $30/yr. seems misleading.  But it's still a subscription no matter how you slice it.  You should be asking the same questions you ask about your cell service, newspaper, magazines, or parking lot.

 

Just my opinion, anyway.  But I run a couple sites that have subscription options, I may be biased.

While I appreciate your opinion, I don't believe that it was particularly on topic. And while I disagree with some of what you've said, I don't feel this thread is the appropriate place to respond.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Pantalaimon

[+JoGPS]

It does not really mater where the money goes its if you are having 30 bucks worth of fun a year.

 

It has nothing to do with when the employees of Groundspeak are in line at the super market and get ready to pay. Lets see last week we had sawdust and crackers do you thing we came afford spam this week. But honey they want take free loafers as money well it’s back to the sawdust.

 

Like any business there are expenses, and god forbid that someone make a profit.

 

I would not post anything about expenses in the forums, it does mater what ever is said will get nic-picked to death.

 

If you are not having fun don’t do it.

 

I never have gotten the part that a lot of folks say that they can’t afford the 30 bucks a year but yet they pay for other things connected with this sport and with out this site they could not do that. Those that say they will never become a paying member because it against there principles. It only means that those of us that are paying members are paying your way, “slacker”

 

As always pay up or shut up ……………… JOE

[Pantalaimon]

So, in answer to my original query, you're saying a definitive "no"?

[+The Geocache Hunter]

I really don't care where the money goes. I am a paying member and am more than happy with the service that is being provided with my membership fees. So that is all I should really care about.

 

I also assume that my fees help cover the cost of maintaining this site even for those people who choose not to become premium members (nothing wrong with that).

 

I would even be happy to know that someone is making a living off of this site since it must be a full time job for a handful of people.

[+dhenninger]

Although it may seem more like a contribution (and feel like it, for that matter) a premium membership is a subscription. It's not a 501©(3) contribution that you might demand to know where money is going. You're not an investor trying to determine proper share price and divident yield. It's a $30 annual subscription. As the consumer, you need to determine value. The market will (supposedly) determine cost and benefit.

 

That it's only $3/mth. or $30/yr. seems misleading. But it's still a subscription no matter how you slice it. You should be asking the same questions you ask about your cell service, newspaper, magazines, or parking lot.

 

Just my opinion, anyway. But I run a couple sites that have subscription options, I may be biased.

I wish my cell phone bill was $3 a month or even $30 a month I think it is worth it.

[Keystone]

zengunner8, you are right, it is a decent sized handful of full-time people, and the hand is growing more fingers. I have taken the elevator to visit Groundspeak's relatively new offices (and no, they're not lavish). I counted the cubicles. It's come a long way from Jeremy and Elias sitting at tables in a basement.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Keystone Approver

[+GOT GPS?]

If they still had the same computer they had prior to asking for membership fees, then you could imagine what would happen if you put the same load on that old poor computer, that the new servers can handle. Imagine frying eggs on the old computer as it dies a cruel death.

 

I imagine that Geocaching gets so much mail now that they also need a big office to contain all the mail too, and imagine the lease on that office.

Edited August 26, 2004 by GOT GPS?

[+Doc-Dean]

zengunner8, you are right, it is a decent sized handful of full-time people, and the hand is growing more fingers. I have taken the elevator to visit Groundspeak's relatively new offices (and no, they're not lavish). I counted the cubicles. It's come a long way from Jeremy and Elias sitting at tables in a basement.

Well at least they are not still sitting in the basement and pocketing all the cash!

[+NoLemon]

What does it cost to run any business?

• servers, routers and other computer/networking hardware - got to buy them and keep them running (they do break from time to time)
  
• data storage - true harddrives are cheaper all the time, but we (users) keep generating new cache listings, new logs, new forum posts, etc. and (thankfully GC.com is deleting old stuff that we know of) which means the storage requirements is growing.
  
• off-the-shelf software to make the server just run (Microsoft is giving away server and database licenses)
  
• custom written software - what we, the users, use (read: salaries or consultant/contractor fees for application software development/maintenance)
  
• phone service
  
• office space to house the servers and people that make them run
  
• electricity
  
• insurance
  
• taxes
  
• salaries and benefits (someone has to keep all the servers and software running and build the new features- I know I don't work for free and I don't expect it from others)
  
• internet connectivity - the more you use the more it costs
  
• office supplies
  

I'm sure that are more that I've missed.

 

I was a non-paying member for a long time. For that I am thankful. I do believe that there needs to be non-paying access, otherwise there'd be significantly less growth. But I do believe in supporting the site and additional services for those that do pay. I get a lot of value for the 8.2 cents per day I spend for my premium membership.

[+Renegade Knight]

It's a fair question. The only people qualified to say haven't posted. It would not suprise me if they chose not too. No answer is also an answer of sorts. It just leaves you open to speculate.

 

In the case of geocaching I think the question has a lot more validity in the case of Groundspeak, than asking it of GE before you buy an iron.

[+wimseyguy]

Warning very direct answer ahead. No disrespect intended! No personal attack planned.

Groundspeak is a private company. You have/have not elected of your own free will to be/not be a paying member. They actually keep a substantial part of their product open to the public for FREE! The distribution of the revenue gained from member subscription is none of your business. You are not entitled to any explanation, so why are you even asking for one?

 

I almost didn't post to this thread. As a paying premium member I'm plenty happy i)supporting the website that provides me with the info I need and want for my main recreational activity; and ii) paying for some additional features as well.

 

I am also a small business owner and it really sets me off when the prices of my wares are questioned, or someone comments-nice car/house/boat-you must really be making a ton of $ with your business. I work too many hours to count, and I imagine the top geese at Groundspeak do to. But it doesn't stop there. Once you have employees you become responsible for their well being too. There is very little waking time in my life-or that of any small business person, when you don't think about the business, even subconciously. None of this is intended to be a complaint. I have chosen this path and couldn't imagine answering to any boss besides the ones I have now-my customers, and my goals.

But when some random customer wonders aloud how much profit I net from the sale of one item I politely tell them what I just shared with you: it's really none of your business. Thank you for your patronage though. I truely do appreciate it.

 

Edited for clarity: I do not know, nor care. It is none of my business. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Edited August 26, 2004 by wimseyguy

[Pipanella]

I do have to agree with you, wimseyguy. It's sort of like when people say to the dentist, "Oh, and what kind of new car did I pay for this year?" or "I helped my dentist put his kids through college." Uh, and do YOU get a paycheck for YOUR work, and does your employer question how you spend YOUR money?

 

Okay, so maybe it's not EXACTLY the same, but sort of.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Pipanella

[+clearpath]

I do have to agree with you, wimseyguy. It's sort of like when people say to the dentist, "Oh, and what kind of new car did I pay for this year?" or "I helped my dentist put his kids through college." Uh, and do YOU get a paycheck for YOUR work, and does your employer question how you spend YOUR money?

 

Okay, so maybe it's not EXACTLY the same, but sort of.

My Dentist owns a Ferrari ...

[+Bjorn74]

While I appreciate your opinion, I don't believe that it was particularly on topic. And while I disagree with some of what you've said, I don't feel this thread is the appropriate place to respond.

Go ahead and email me. In short my real answer is that you have no "rights" to an answer any more than the examples I listed. For that reason, don't expect an official answer. All you'll get is conjecture. Thus my comment was purely topical.

 

Email me all you want, though. I'll even be nice.

[Pantalaimon]

Again, this was not meant to be a discussion of whether or not anyone thinks anyone else should get to know the answer to where the member fees go. I understand everyone has their opinion on what the business can keep to themselves, etc.

 

It was meant as a discussion on where the fees actually go, or whether you have an idea, opinion, guess, etc. on where they go, and what percentage goes where.

 

Thanks for all the input on whether I should not ask at all, or any other OT opinion, whether stated or intimated, but let's try to stay on topic.

 

Thanks,

Pan

[+Stunod]

In the case of geocaching I think the question has a lot more validity in the case of Groundspeak, than asking it of GE before you buy an iron.

GE is a public company and it's book are open to public scrutiny, even to non-stockholders. If you really want to know what GE does with the income from it's small appliance division(s), you can request a copy of their quarterly financial reports.

 

Private companies do not need to explain their finacial behavior to anyone except the government (taxes) and their owners (and maybe their bank).

 

When Jeremy finally goes public, all the questions will be answered

 

edit: (to stay on topic) No, I have no idea where the money goes.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Stunod

[+clearpath]

I'm guessing a few of our membership dollars went to buy company vehicles for upper management at Groundspeak. Rumur has it that everyone got a brand new Vespa ...

[+DeskJocky]

When Jeremy finally goes public, all the questions will be answered

Isn't Disney already public?

 

Of all the pictures I've seen of the gc.com headquarters and its employees I've never seen any signs of extravgent spending. Then again, I haven't seen pictures of Hydee's enguagment/wedding rings yet. Spet1c, can you work on that?

[+CO Admin]

The original poster asked this question at the end of the original post:

 

Anyone have anything useful to say?

 

Therefore comment made in this thread regarding yout right to know are valid. However it seems that the original poster does not want to abide by their own comments laid down in the original post. So there is no reason to leave this thread open if you dont like the answers you are getting I am sorry but they are all on topic based on your original post.