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Most Dangerous Parks For 2003.


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The behaviour described- pulling a gun on a jogger who comes up on the trail behind you for no reason other than he or she startled you is, without a doubt, STUPID

 

You disagree?  ?

No. That kind of behaviour is without doubt stupid. Metaphor was referring to a single incident*) once mentioned in forums. You know, the one which you, for some odd reason, said he won't find.

 

*) Not to all people who carry legally.

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It's sad that the US has the image Brian describes.

You're quite right that the us has a bad reputation in other countries.

 

I'm sure that the majority of US people are 'nice' but there are obviously a number of prats.

 

In the UK we now have strict gun laws, NO handguns and licences required for all types of guns. Therefore if someone has a handgun, they get arrested, if someone has another sort of gun, they get questioned.

 

It's very difficult for peoples of a country such as the UK to understand the American gun culture. The idea that most people have guns at home (for whatever reason) is frankly disturbing to us.

 

The earlier comments about burglary sort of say a lot, in the long run, what's more important, material possessions (which are replaceable) or a life, be it yours or the criminals (which is irreplacable) ?

 

As for carrying guns while geocaching !!

 

I had thought at some point it would be nice to do a 'caching exchange' i.e. invite someone to stay here and cache, then do the same at their place. Now I'm thinking, seeing as you're saying it's so dangerous, just to stay at home . . :lol:

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The earlier comments about burglary sort of say a lot, in the long run, what's more important, material possessions (which are replaceable) or a life, be it yours or the criminals (which is irreplacable) ?

No, what it says is, your government expects you to lie there in bed and hope the guy vandalizing your home isn't also psycho enough to kill you just for fun. And in case you haven't noticed, gun crime in the UK has SOARED since guns were banned (mostly West Indian drug gangs, but don't breath a sigh of relief -- you can't count on them only killing their own, they don't seem to be particularly good shots). Violent crime in general is rampant, but most people seem to have bought into the weird legalistic notion of proportionality -- you can't defend yourself with a knife unless your attacker has one, but you could probably hit him with a shovel if he had a garden hoe. Yeah, I'm going to be able to do that math startled, in the middle of the night, in the dark.

 

You actually do have a gun culture, even if they've been disarmed. There are people in the UK who understand that, by not allowing you to defend yourselves in any way, your government no longer considers you adults. Congratulations, you're wards of the state. Better hope they come when you call.

 

Did you see the woman the other day who called the police and told them she saw a man with a gun? When they surrounded the house moments later, she said, "I lied. I knew you wouldn't get here so fast if I just said I was being burglarized."

 

The reaction of the average Brit to a gun is not a rational calculation of risk, it's pure superstition. You've convinced yourselves that senseless violence flows from guns (ooo! evil violence sticks, bad-bad-bad), and all you had to do was ban them and cruelty would be no more. The more untrue that turns out to be, the less anyone is willing to acknowledge it.

 

Sorry for the rant. Don't know why the thread isn't locked, but I spend a lot of time in the UK, and I couldn't let that go by unchallenged. Believe me, I feel safer in Boston than I do in London, and safer still in East Mooseknuckle Tennessee, where all the men are armed and the women carry the most adorable little .38s in their purses. Guns are objects, people are murderers.

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Some of us - mostly westerners it seems - have spoken about going armed in our daily lives. And yes, even while geocaching. Many of you have not been able to understand us. Perhaps this will help. It pays to be careful, even while caching.

 

The ten most dangerous.

 

Perhaps THIS THREAD will give you a better understanding too.

 

Sorry it isn't all rosey. But would you rather not know? Be careful out there!

Crud...I was planning on a camping trip to Amistad/Devil's River later this year...I guess that's out b/c the only defense I pack are a couple Benchmades which would only marginally help.

 

This is pretty good info, too bad Texas has 3 parks on there...guess I'll stick to the Hill Country.

 

Thanks for the heads-up!

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Some of us - mostly westerners it seems - have spoken about going armed in our daily lives.  And yes, even while geocaching.  Many of you have not been able to understand us.  Perhaps this will help.  It pays to be careful, even while caching.

Thanks for posting your links. I think it is great that you are speaking up and bringing this to our attention. Better to be aware than to stick your head in the ground and pretend that there is no danger.

 

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

 

—Martin Niemoeller

Edited by cachew nut
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OTOH, don't cancel a vacation just because of this information. Just remain more alert and go about your trip.

 

On this, Desert Warrior and I are in 100% agreement.

Yup, me too. And I guess the most geocachers are. The good thing about hiding hidden objects in public trying not to reveal it to passers-by is that you automatically raise your state of awareness and alert. :P

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The issue has been (among other things) those who carry legally, but instead of being responsible, they're either drunk, threatening, scared as hell, hypervigilant or all of them and more. Irresponsible. Do I really have to get shot on the trail because they just didn't happen to hear me coming?

 

I know I'll be searching geocaches one day on the US turf. It's clear that I can't carry a weapon while doing it (not that I'd want to). Still: If a big, ugly foreigner like me approached you (not anyone particular in this thread) in the woods to say hello to a co-cacher and just didn't understand your southern drawl (or whatever accent they didn't teach me in the school - or tv) to back off, would I deserve your bullet in my skin? Just because of a misunderstanding? Just because you were afraid of me?

 

Be wary of me by all means, but please don't shoot me. I am just there to find some geocaches. :(

You seem like a decent person, so don't take this the wrong way...but...

 

What you are saying is, basically, mythical. If memory serves me, there are over 40 states in the US that have "Shall Issue" concealed carry laws. Two that have no license carry, Alaska and Vermont.

 

In Texas alone, there are over 250,000 persons with CHL's. No OK corrals, no blood in the street Dodge city, no women shooting it out over parking spots at the mall.

 

Don't buy in to the BS. CHL holders are MORE law abiding than the average citizen.

 

And beside all that, you will never know when you are around someone who is carrying. Concealed means concealed.

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It's very difficult for peoples of a country such as the UK to understand the American gun culture. The idea that most people have guns at home (for whatever reason) is frankly disturbing to us.

 

If its disturbing to you, think of how much it bothers criminals.

I took interest in this line and did a quick lookup of violent crime statistics. Apparently it doesn't scare the criminals too much in the US because we have a higher crime index than many countries in Europe. In general I don't think there is a correlation between gun ownership and being more safe from crime.

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I took interest in this line and did a quick lookup of violent crime statistics. Apparently it doesn't scare the criminals too much in the US because we have a higher crime index than many countries in Europe. In general I don't think there is a correlation between gun ownership and being more safe from crime.

Well, that convinces me! No need to explain what you mean by "crime index," or compare the crime rate in places that forbid gun ownership (say, New York or D.C.) to places that encourage it, or break out what sorts of crimes you're counting and which of them might reasonably be deterred by armed self defense.

 

Nosiree.

 

I'm sold.

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Permit me to point out that the last three posts have nothing to say that's directly related to geocaching. If you wish to discuss gun control, gun ownership rights and crime as a social/political issue rather than as a geocaching issue, there is a thread in the Off-Topic forum for this purpose. Thanks.

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I took interest in this line and did a quick lookup of violent crime statistics.  Apparently it doesn't scare the criminals too much in the US because we have a higher crime index than many countries in Europe.  In general I don't think there is a correlation between gun ownership and being more safe from crime.

Read "More Guns - Less Crime" by Professor John Lott, University of Chicago Press. (Yes, a very liberal university in a gun-banning city in a gun banning state). The results are quite clear and historically are proven out.

 

That way, we can keep this on topic - which was don't cancel your trip to dangerous parks, just be more alert and aware of your situation. Really, this is good advice for life, not just geocaching in certain areas. You never know when a giant meteor will fall on you, and you might spot it in time to run.

Edited by Desert_Warrior
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That way, we can keep this on topic - which was don't cancel your trip to dangerous parks, just be more alert and aware of your situation. Really, this is good advice for life, not just geocaching in certain areas. You never know when a giant meteor will fall on you, and you might spot it in time to run.

Yes, we've fortunately all come to agreement on this point, I believe. It fits well into common sense and should be remembered as we head into the parks (whereever they are) with our noses buried in our electronic devices and LCD arrows.

 

BUT...you began this thread with the notion that "aware and alert", or as you also put it "fore-warned", was to be "fore-armed". That was the largest point of discussion in which you bring up as evidence the 10 worst parks for what I am going to dub "ranger-danger".

 

I think a very valid argument can be built to say at the least that this survey is not good evidence for heightening personal protection to the level of firearms as a means of being alert/pre-emptive to the dangers around you. The survey does not speak to visitor dangers or that being armed is the best way to solve any visitor dangers. In fact, your own comments on how rangers have had gunfire exchanges with smugglers and/or aliens suggests to me that being an armed layperson and/or confronting another armed person runs the greater risk than being un-armed and alert enough to avoid confrontation.

 

As I go out geocaching/hiking, I would rather be robbed of my GPSr, beaten but mobile or kidnapped with the possibility of escape/release than to draw a weapon in defense and raise the stakes that I am shot and dead. The temporary loss of my personal liberties to a criminal are not worth the value I place on my own life. You could also add to that the other inherent dangers of firearms (even responsible gun ownership has some dangers) but it's not necessary.

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I took interest in this line and did a quick lookup of violent crime statistics.  Apparently it doesn't scare the criminals too much in the US because we have a higher crime index than many countries in Europe.  In general I don't think there is a correlation between gun ownership and being more safe from crime.

Read "More Guns - Less Crime" by Professor John Lott, University of Chicago Press. (Yes, a very liberal university in a gun-banning city in a gun banning state). The results are quite clear and historically are proven out.

 

That way, we can keep this on topic - which was don't cancel your trip to dangerous parks, just be more alert and aware of your situation. Really, this is good advice for life, not just geocaching in certain areas. You never know when a giant meteor will fall on you, and you might spot it in time to run.

Thanks for the book info. I'll take a look. Of course I found plenty stuff on the web countering the book, but I would expect that considering this is a 'hot' debate item. You can manipulate stats pretty much any way for any purpose.

 

Back on topic. I wasn't really worried about the report in the first place. As Brian has mentioned there was an agenda behind the report. I'm more worried (and probably in much, much, much, more danger) driving on NJ roads getting to a cache than being threatened in the woods. :(

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As I go out geocaching/hiking, I would rather be robbed of my GPSr, beaten but mobile or kidnapped with the possibility of escape/release than to draw a weapon in defense and raise the stakes that I am shot and dead.  The temporary loss of my personal liberties to a criminal are not worth the value I place on my own life.  You could also add to that the other inherent dangers of firearms (even responsible gun ownership has some dangers) but it's not necessary.

That statement is simply STUNNING. I will remember it for a long time as an excellent example of the difference between the Wolf, the Sheep and the Sheepdogs.

 

Thanks.

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That statement is simply STUNNING. I will remember it for a long time as an excellent example of the difference between the Wolf, the Sheep and the Sheepdogs.

 

Thanks.

Classify people however you like. The point still remains that my ideology gives me a far greater chance at being a living sheep than the sheepdog ideology gives even the most prepared person at being a living sheepdog.

 

Beyond that, I believe the monikers of sheep, wolf, and sheepdog to be incorrectly applied. You do me no good to be armed. You are not my protector as a sheepdog would be to a sheep. As a citizen on-trail, you are armed for your own personal protection. I am not a sheep because I still take precautions to keep myself safe, they just do not rise to the level of firearms. Wolves kill sheep and murderers are only a distinct (and seemingly minor, according to this survey) subset of the criminals you might run into in even the 10 most ranger-dangerous national parks.

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That statement is simply STUNNING. I will remember it for a long time as an excellent example of the difference between the Wolf, the Sheep and the Sheepdogs.

 

Whats even more STUNNING is ultra thin line that sometimes separate the Wolf, Sheep and Sheepdog. And equally as stunning are the number of children that are killed each year that happen upon the firearm of the so called 'responsible gun owner's'.

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Whats even more STUNNING is ultra thin line that sometimes separate the Wolf, Sheep and Sheepdog.  And equally as stunning are the number of children that are killed each year that happen upon the firearm of the so called 'responsible gun owner's'.

So why don't you illuminate us with your knowledge and tell us how many children are killed in firearms accidents each year?

Edited by Texasbagman
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Classify people however you like. The point still remains that my ideology gives me a far greater chance at being a living sheep than the sheepdog ideology gives even the most prepared person at being a living sheepdog.

 

People can convince themselves of anything. Even when no logic can back it up.

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I took interest in this line and did a quick lookup of violent crime statistics.  Apparently it doesn't scare the criminals too much in the US because we have a higher crime index than many countries in Europe.  In general I don't think there is a correlation between gun ownership and being more safe from crime.

Your last sentence is probably very close to the truth. There might be some correlation, but the crime rates are depended on so many other things. Of course gun advocates always point to the same studies that speak for their business. Of course Canada's or UK's risen homicide statistics makes it seem that 'the criminals started to buthcer the unarmed citicens'. You can't just take one publication and preach the truth based on that.

 

If the hypothesis more guns - less crime is universally true, how do you explain the anomalies in this table? Granted, the homicides committed with a firearm are dropping in the US (although there are no state breakdowns, the figures are means of the whole US), but at the same time Japan with its very strict gun laws has very low rates. And Switzerland with very high rate of gun ownership is as good as any fellow country with different ownership rates. And gun crimes in Canada and UK 'soaring', gimme a break. :(

 

Yeah, those were just some stats. They don't prove the gun ownership very dangerous, but they certainly don't prove the high ownership very much safer either. There hardly is very high correlation between gun ownership and being safe from crime.

 

ObTopic: I've geocached in seven different countries and felt quite safe everywhere. I didn't even wish for a gun when I was chased by pack of angry dogs in Bangkok. I outsmarted them. :o

 

Edit: typos

Edited by Divine
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So why don't you illuminate us with your knowledge and tell us how many children are killed in firearms accidents each year?

Okay, how about this stat:

 

-- On average, 4 to 5 children died every day in non-homicide firearm incidents from 1995-2000.

 

you can find more information at www.kidsandguns.org

 

Consider yourself illuminated..

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I read recently (I don't have the source in front of me, it is at home and I am at work) that there were aroun 750 accidental firearm deaths per year. To put that in perspective, there are around 60,000 deaths per year due to automobiles. I am not saying you shouldn't drive, but that when you go geocaching you are more likely to be killed in an auto accident than involved in a shooting accident! (My logic is a bit specious, but I had to tie it to geocaching :unsure: )

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One thing for sure....it would be much scarier for a foreign army to think of invading a country where there could be 350+ MILLION armed citizens, than it would to invade a country where they know no one is armed.....

 

Tell me.....if the fighting starts are you going to hide behind the guy with the big gun or the guy with no gun at all?????

 

dik

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