Announcing Geowoodstock 3

[the federation]

I agree with The Leprechauns in their statement about everyone being entitled to have their own personal opinion. I believe what has happened here is that people have drawn conclusions as to our motivations based upon their perception of what they have seen. I for one and other members of NEFGA are totaly amazed at the reaction to this thread.

 

I cannot speak for what was said between Paintfiction and our local admin in regards to the cache listing but I do know from personal experience and 2 1/2 years of caching that I had never heard of a time limit on event posting till this was raised as an issue in this forum. Now don't misunderstand me it may be an unwritten guideline but it is not posted in the Event Cache Guidelines. So if our local approver agreed to list the cache I don't see where we have done anything wrong.

 

To adress the issue of spaming the boards I will admit that I posted the announcement not the cache page to multiple forums and that was considered spam by GC.Com. I did not consider it such since the guideline has always been to post to the appropiate forum I posted it in multiple forums to which the post was relevant. When it was brought to my attention by an admin I spoke with them through 3 or 4 private messages I explained my position, the admin explained their's we agreed to disagree and I left it at that. I further agreed to remeber GC.Com's position on spam in the future.

 

To address the issue of contacting individual organizations and other groups, yes we have actively sought out contacts from as many groups, web sites, and other organizations as possible. If in that pursuit someone recieved a cut and paste letter not adressed to a specific individual I can only say where I knew who to contact I tried to adress them personally, where I was contacting a webmaster i adressed it that way, where I had no idea who I was reaching I did use a To Whom It may concern type greeting. One of the issuses that this has brought about, is it is very difficult to reach the vast array of groups and organizations represented across the spectrum of Geocaching. oAt our last count I believe we have identified over 60 geocaching groups.

 

As far as the comment about commercializing Geowoodstock I have no idea where that comes from. Geowoodstock is an event for cachers about caching so I have no idea where that come from.

 

Yes we have heard of web sites and yes we are currently working on a site that we can update on a continous basis for people to check out. The biggest complaint we heard outside of the date was that people didn't know about the event. That was the one area that we sincerly belived we could enhance the event by making it more availalbe to everyone.

 

If in my zeal to get the word out about GW3 I have offended anyone I will personlally accept the responsibltity for that. Please don't hold these problems against GW3 or The Other cachers who are working dilligently to put on this event. I have only tried to get the word out about the greatest oppurtunity for cachers to get together and enjoy this sport we all love together. I know each of us holds strong opinions about how we cache and how things should be done but lets not let our personal opinions about caching affect something as huge as a National Level Event for all cachers. If anyone feels like they would like to discuss any of the topics I have raised or how I have handled these issues please feel free to contact me personally I would be glad to talk to you, but lets keep this thread as civil as possible.

 

The Federation

Promotions Chairman NEFGA & GW3

thefederation@se.rr.com

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

If I was promoting an event like GW3 I think I'd be asking myself about now, 'Do I really want those folks who are so upset about how the event got posted, to even attend?'.

 

If they should choose to attend, will they then complain about everything else that was done to make this a great event? Will they be looking for other "Unwritten Rules" that you have figured out how to skirt?

 

Rather than complain about having the 'event' show up on the weekly notices, how about a suggestion as to how to notify as many geocachers as possible? I know how hard it is to ignore a cache in the weekly notices.

 

It seems to be getting harder to get advice (here in the forums) on how to 'improve' something since so many of those who are most familiar with this site seem to need to step back and take a fresh look at things in general. Maybe it is just the summer's heat, but try to relax a little before the stress causes real problems.

 

It sounds like it will be fun, but unfortunately we cannot be there.

 

Just the views of an oldfart.

 

John

[+fly46]

Is this still drawing flies?

Yep! I don't go away easily!

 

 

Seriously, though, here's the thing.. I learned about GW2 by looking at the event cache schedule. If we had a way to put an event on the schedule without having to have a cache page for it, this entire discussion would never exist. But since there isn't, then what else can you do?

 

When the approver approved the page, I'm quite sure he/she knew what was going on. Whether or not they post in the forums, they know what's going on in the Geocaching community, and they knew that - regardless of if they had the exact date - GW3 wouldn't take place until summer of 2005. Everybody I see here is so quick to blame the Floridians for this, but the truth of the matter is that their approver approved that cache page.

 

I have to say, even the cachers that do read the forums say that they didn't know about GW3, so NEFGA decided to do whatever they could to promote it.

 

Let me ask this: Those of you in opposition of this, all you keep doing is harping on what was done wrong. Suggest something they could do that isn't against whatever rule you think is being broken.

[+briansnat]

If I was promoting an event like GW3 I think I'd be asking myself about now, 'Do I really want those folks who are so upset about how the event got posted, to even attend?'.

 

Yeah, who would want one of those intransigent, spoilsports like Lapaglia, CarleenP, Leprechauns, Mudfrog and Southdeltan at the event. You wouldn't want them to ruin it with their constant negativity and cynicism.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

If I was promoting an event like GW3 I think I'd be asking myself about now, 'Do I really want those folks who are so upset about how the event got posted, to even attend?'.

 

Yeah, who would want one of those intransigent, spoilsports like Lapaglia, CarleenP, Leprechauns, Mudfrog and Southdeltan at the event. You wouldn't want them to ruin it with their constant negativity and cynicism.

 

If they can't offer some help on the percieved problem, then Yes!

 

John

[+clearpath]

If I was promoting an event like GW3 I think I'd be asking myself about now, 'Do I really want those folks who are so upset about how the event got posted, to even attend?'.

 

Yeah, who would want one of those intransigent, spoilsports like Lapaglia, CarleenP, Leprechauns, Mudfrog and Southdeltan at the event. You wouldn't want them to ruin it with their constant negativity and cynicism.

 

If they can't offer some help on the percieved problem, then Yes!

 

John

Okay, calm down Old Fart before you go and give yourself gas. The most I've seen in this thread is a few people concerned that everyone plays by the same rules. So far, its been constructive ...

[+southdeltan]

Yeah, who would want one of those intransigent, spoilsports like Lapaglia, CarleenP, Leprechauns, Mudfrog and Southdeltan at the event. You wouldn't want them to ruin it with their constant negativity and cynicism.

That's it - you're out of my will!

 

---------------------------------

 

Seriously - my biggest complaint is aimed at the inconsistancy of the approvers. People in our state were told that we couldn't post an event more than 2 months out. Apparantly some states and/or events are more important than others. (Yes, I know this isn't true, I'm just trying to point out that more work needs to be done on approver consistancy).

 

I'm waiting on the "it's a national event" thing to kick in - it may be, but it's also designed to honor people with lots of finds. I thought numbers didn't matter? (that's what I'm always told when I mention a leaderboard). Incidentally - Ju66l3r - the original idea kinda makes a site with lots of caches preferable. I honestly have no problem - I think find counts are cool, so please don't think I'm dissing anybody (just trying to make my point that to a lot of people, numbers DO matter).

 

Since a request for suggestions was made - let me address what I think most of the people who have "complained" are concerned about.

 

If you do not live within 100 miles of this event, read the "Geocaching in Florida" page (which a lot of geocachers DON'T), or regularly dig through the Events Calender (which isn't highlighted very well, so it gets overlooked) this cache page would NOT have told you about this event. Most of the people who have heard about it heard about it from a forum post. Why bend the "code"/"rules" when a thread was all that was needed?

 

Now - to the suggestion(s):

 

- How about a seperate forum just for events? (this won't help people that don't read forums).

 

- An events watchlist email. Each week you get a LIST of events pending within a larger area than 100 miles (just events). You could also include a flag that indicates regional/national/international event and just include those.

 

southdeltan

Edited August 24, 2004 by southdeltan

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

How about a monthly cache event notification? Similar to the weekly notice.

 

southdeltan: your suggestions allow you to attend!

[+carleenp]

I hope I can get this clear on my third (and last) try. I have no problem with the event itself or trying to get the word out about it early. I appreciate the effort it takes to plan such a thing and I personally like the people planning it.

 

My concern is fairness for everyone in the process. There are so many complaints about inconsistency and I feel that consistency is important. I am uncomfortable with one national event getting treated differently than another.

 

As for fixes, I can image several solutions. (1) Try to get the rules clarified or changed and/or hopefully have made clear that the GW3 event got a special exception that others should not expect (maybe post that on the event page, or better yet ask the reviewer to add that note?). That could still cause some unhappy people who are denied an exception in the future, but it helps. (2) Simply voluntarily choose to play by the rules as is and wait until 6 months before to list the page. In the meantime, continue to work to see that local groups announce the event, which is how many will find out about it so early anyway.

 

I know it seems nit-picky to many of you and maybe it is the lawyer in me, but I think precedent and consistency are important. My comments aren't meant to be interpreted as picking on GW3 or somehow bashing the event. I support the event. They are more general to the overall concern of fairness in the application of the rules and my opinion would be the same regardless of whether I liked or did not like an event or did or did not plan to attend.

 

Anyway, I can't stress enough that I appreciate the work that goes into planning the event and I wish the planners nothing but the best of luck and I hope that everyone who attends has a very good time, which I am sure they will.

 

Edit: I also like Southdeltan's suggestions which would fall under my suggestion of trying to get the rules clarified or changed.

Edited August 24, 2004 by carleenp

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Thank you for your suggestions and you may now attend if you wish.

 

I'm not really associated with this event. Really I'm not.

 

By the way carleenp, we won't hold it against you that you're a lawyer.

 

John

 

edit my grammer and speeling

Edited August 25, 2004 by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

[the federation]

I appreciate the postive feedbackl from you all. I really frown on the negativity as well. I guess for us we felt that a formalized cache page was not necessarily the first line of promotion rather it was a place to make announcements and to track happenings with the event. As well as a pre-count place so we could start getting a head count for the event. Our hope and was and still is that we would be able to contact each of the caching organizations to work out a liasion with them to help make plans and keep them updated on Woodstock. But again I reiterate the overwhelming problem of running down 60 plus groups, organizations, informal yahoo chat groups and similar entities. The underlying problem and a idea that I hope comes to fruition on GC.Com is a comprehensive listing of recoginized groups so when items such as this or other large scale events are planned groups could easily access all groups of cachers.

I can honestly say and I really mean this to my knowledge I have never encountered any rule or guideline which gave a timeframe for posting events. I am not saying it has not been discussed in previous forums but I have never personally experienced it or not have I read any posts about it. Again I am not sure nor was I privy to the discussion between Paintfiction and our local admin so I don't know how or what the disscussion was. I do agree if one group was held to a 2 month time frame how some would feel like their event was being slighted or how they may feel like we feel GW3 is more important than others. We had no intention of trying to be more important than anyone else or any other group we were simply trying to give everyone interested as much planning time as possible.

Yes even with all of the disscussion and confusion this has caused I still look forward to seeing every cacher at GW3. I know that those who have very strong opinions about how things have been handled are not attacking us personally so I still look forward to seeing them In Jacksonville. I would only hope that maybe through this as with other issuses GC.com will establish or work with all of us to find some reasonable solutions to the problems mentioned here.

[+LaPaglia]

I appreciate the postive feedbackl from you all. I really frown on the negativity as well. I guess for us we felt that a formalized cache page was not necessarily the first line of promotion rather it was a place to make announcements and to track happenings with the event. As well as a pre-count place so we could start getting a head count for the event. Our hope and was and still is that we would be able to contact each of the caching organizations to work out a liasion with them to help make plans and keep them updated on Woodstock. But again I reiterate the overwhelming problem of running down 60 plus groups, organizations, informal yahoo chat groups and similar entities. The underlying problem and a idea that I hope comes to fruition on GC.Com is a comprehensive listing of recoginized groups so when items such as this or other large scale events are planned groups could easily access all groups of cachers.

I can honestly say and I really mean this to my knowledge I have never encountered any rule or guideline which gave a timeframe for posting events. I am not saying it has not been discussed in previous forums but I have never personally experienced it or not have I read any posts about it. Again I am not sure nor was I privy to the discussion between Paintfiction and our local admin so I don't know how or what the disscussion was. I do agree if one group was held to a 2 month time frame how some would feel like their event was being slighted or how they may feel like we feel GW3 is more important than others. We had no intention of trying to be more important than anyone else or any other group we were simply trying to give everyone interested as much planning time as possible.

Yes even with all of the disscussion and confusion this has caused I still look forward to seeing every cacher at GW3. I know that those who have very strong opinions about how things have been handled are not attacking us personally so I still look forward to seeing them In Jacksonville. I would only hope that maybe through this as with other issuses GC.com will establish or work with all of us to find some reasonable solutions to the problems mentioned here.

Sounds like a valid statement. How about disabling the cache page until 6 months before the event as a show of good faith and an attempt to work within the current system(that being the software limitation that everyone else has to live with) until it changes?

[+briansnat]

I really frown on the negativity as well

 

I read some very polite and well reasoned comments from people who had issues about the way things were handled. Why is that something to be frowned on? So everybody who supports your methods is OK, but dare they say something critical, they're accused of griping, negativity and nit-picking.

[+The SuzyQs]

I do not live in the land of a film canister under every lamp post and a hide-a-key on every dumpster.  As a matter of fact, there are only 3-4 people in this state over 500 finds. A great day of caching around here is 4-5 caches, and that's perfectly fine by me. Just don't tell me I need to "get a life" because I don't spend my weekends touring Walmart parking lots.

I live in the land of which you speak (Jacksonville, Fl) and I must say that of my finds here in Northeast Florida only 3 have been lightpole hides (and they were parts of a multi), NONE have been anything attached to or near a dumpster (OK, there was one. It was this big ol' 12"X36"x6" plastic sweater box that you had to enter the woods near a dumpster) and only one has been in a Wal-Mart parking lot. I'm glad that you live in an rural enough area where you can do 500 3 hour long cache hikes - I respect that. I live in an area without as much wide open spaces (but we do have a bunch of parks) so don't disrespect my finds (or anybody else's) just because I only have to walk 40 foot from my Jeep to the cache. We have about 30 active cachers in the area so that just translates into a lot of caches to find. Finally, the SuzyQ's telling you to get a life has nothing to do with how many caches you've found (or how difficult they were to reach). The point was that your time complaining about Geowoodstock (as well as my time complaining about your complaining ) could be better spent caching instead of complaining about others in the forums

Well said. Thank you.

[the federation]

So everybody who supports your methods is OK, but dare they say something critical, they're accused of griping, negativity and nit-picking.

 

Not by me Brian I think sometimes when these things happen everyone tends to have gut level reactions to what is said. I don't think there is any place for negativity from either point of view. I am trying to find a common ground for both opinions without negativity from either side.

 

I appreciate the postive feedback from you all. I really frown on the negativity as well.

Just to make sure I was correct in this statement I went back and reread all my previous posts in none of my posts have I accused anyone of anything, I haven't spoke ill of anyone personally or of their respective group nor have I tried to cause any dissent amongst the posters to the forum. I will admit to a few bits of sarcasm here and there but I believe if you look at the majority of my posts you will see on any fair reading of my posts will reveal that I have continually tried to explain our position, accept responsibilty for what has been done or even apologize to any I have offended and further have even offered solutions to these problems in the case they arise in the future.

[+Mudfrog]

If I was promoting an event like GW3 I think I'd be asking myself about now, 'Do I really want those folks who are so upset about how the event got posted, to even attend?'.

 

Yeah, who would want one of those intransigent, spoilsports like Lapaglia, CarleenP, Leprechauns, Mudfrog and Southdeltan at the event. You wouldn't want them to ruin it with their constant negativity and cynicism.

Heres what i stated in my previous post:

Ok, i didnt read all the previous posts here so this may have been brought up allready. I can understand the intention to get the word out early, but i dont see how a cache listing helps much. The only people that will run across the listing are the ones living nearby that see it everytime they bring up their nearest caches. Of course there will be people that are planning trips out towards Jacksonville that may see the page too. Aside from that, and i might be missing something, i just dont see anyone else ever finding the cache listing...

 

Theres no doubt that this will be one great Event and i applaud all the hard work that is allready going on. But it does seem that there should be a better way to spread the word!

 

No complaints stated above, merely giving my opinion as to why i dont see this working too well to help get the word out. But the statement you came back on, "If I was promoting an event like GW3 I think I'd be asking myself about now, 'Do I really want those folks who are so upset about how the event got posted, to even attend?", is rediculous!

 

Has anyone thought about this? The Event is going to take a long time to plan and organize, get sponsors, make arrangements with the park, etc, etc,,,. I would say its a good thing that the planning is allready in the works! Now, and i know this is very unlikely, but what if you do all of the above, then submit the Event for approval 6 months before,,,, and its denied for some reason? I know that if it were me doing all this work, i would definitely want to know it was approved first!!!

[+CO Admin]

It can be pre-approved and NOT listed untill 6 months. I do that all the time with events that need a long time but still only list for 3 months

[+LSUMonica]

The Leprechauns NOT going to GW3!?!?!?!

 

So all of this work on moving up from 50 caches to almost 300 in the past two months has been worthless???? The Olympics has really inspired me and I have been really trying to improve my geocaching skills so that can get a better "score" from you and mtn-man than at GW2!

 

(See joke picture at carleenp log of Blue)

 

All that work for nothing! Maybe I can get the local crowd to "boo" your decision and get you to change you mind and come.

[+Suziq]

Yes we have heard of web sites and yes we are currently working on a site that we can update on a continous basis for people to check out.

 

I am looking forward to the posting of your website. I think this will help in getting the word out and keeping everyone updated as to what is happening without having to use the event page as your only source.

[+JohnnyVegas]

It can be pre-approved and NOT listed untill 6 months. I do that all the time with events that need a long time but still only list for 3 months

6 months is a joke, keep it at least a year, You just do not understand that some people have to plan there vacations a year in advance, So you are saying for those who must plan their vations a year ahead can go to hell. Join the real world. large events cannot be put together on short notice, 6 months is short notice, i have been involed with planing events, You do not have any idea what you are talking about. Evan a small event can take several months of planning. You cannot get get a good head count on a large event in just a few months.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

Where were all the complainers when this thread was started?

[+The Leprechauns]

Where were all the complainers when this thread was started?

I don't think anybody's complaining about providing as much lead time and advance notice as possible for a national event -- only with the means utilized. Thus, I had no objection to the opening of forum topics for the purpose of deciding where to hold GW3 and thereafter to announce it, discuss the details, etc. I will admit to being taken aback a little bit by the zealousness with which the Northeast Florida geocachers pressed their cause. No one can dispute the fact that they are working hard and are a committed group!

 

EDIT: grammar

Edited August 25, 2004 by The Leprechauns

[+Corp Of Discovery]

Where were all the complainers when this thread was started?

I don't think anybody's complaining about providing as much lead time and advance notice as possible for a national event -- only with the means utilized. Thus, I had no objection to the opening of forum topics for the purpose of deciding where to hold GW3 and thereafter to announce it, discuss the details, etc. I will admit to being taken aback a little bit by the zealousness with which the Northeast Florida geocachers pressed their cause. No one can dispute the fact that they are working hard and are a committed group!

 

EDIT: grammar

I see your point. But what I meant was why did none of the people complaining now, not input to that thread? With more people discussing it then, this minor controversy may have been avoided. That was after all the purpose of that thread- to have a wide ranging discussion and to bring up possible problems, solutions and improvements.

 

As far as the specifics go- if it was done with the local admin/approvers blessing there should be no harm/foul. The person who approved it maybe should have consulted with others before doing so, but not knowing the internal mechanisms involved, may have been under no obligation to. Of course if it was modified after approval that would be wrong- but in that case the listing could be archived just as any other should be. I do think it was a good idea to post the page this far in advanced, adding it to your watch list is the easiest way to keep up on notices and such to it. If that was not kosher then a pinned topic on it would have been good too.

 

I would hope that this does not affect anyone's willingness to go to the event, for that would surely run contrary to what the event is about. I am going to do my best to attend, and am looking forward to meeting as many people as possible there.

[+paintfiction]

Where were all the complainers when this thread was started?

I don't think anybody's complaining about providing as much lead time and advance notice as possible for a national event -- only with the means utilized. Thus, I had no objection to the opening of forum topics for the purpose of deciding where to hold GW3 and thereafter to announce it, discuss the details, etc. I will admit to being taken aback a little bit by the zealousness with which the Northeast Florida geocachers pressed their cause. No one can dispute the fact that they are working hard and are a committed group!

 

EDIT: grammar

Thank you for your acknowledgment of our zeal and commitment to the event.

 

I don't understand why there is concern about our zealousness. We love geocaching! We are excited about geocaching and are excited at having the responsibility of hosting such an important national event. These are good things! I am dismayed that thus far the only stumbling blocks in our path to putting on the best event possible have been thrown up by fellow geocachers. We "pressed" our case because if we were to be selected, we wanted as much time as possible to plan and execute the event.

 

One of the most important issues in putting on an event such as this is to get the word out as soon as possible for 2 reasons:

 

1. We need to get an idea as soon as possible how many people will attend. We need to know ASAP if the event is likely to draw 300 or 600. There is a huge difference in planning considerations based on number of attendees.

 

2. Attendees need as much time as possible to make vacation/travel plans.

 

There have been alternate ideas put forth for achieving this goal but the most important link in the chain is the cache page itself. As was said previously, the cache page is the "anchor". It is what gives credibility to forum posts, informational web pages, etc. Without it we would have no way to gauge response and plan accordingly. For example at the present time, there are about 50 accounts watching the cache page and about 50 people coming with the cache page less than a week old. If we see a huge number watching the page and posting similar responses in the next couple of months, we may need to change our venue to accomodate the number of attendees. If that need arises, we need to know as soon as possible. There are not a lot of places that have the facilities to handle a group of that size and they get reserved early.

 

To try to put some closure on this thread (at least for me), we went through proper channels to have the cache page approved. In no way did we think we were "skirting" any rules. Our intentions are honorable. Everything we do is to promote this event and geocaching in general. Our desire is to host the best event we can do.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jim Coleman - Paintfiction

NEFGA President

[the federation]

Again I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by this thread. I in no way wished it to become another cachers drawing sides affair. I for one am open to reasonable discussion on options. I think the underlying princple here is the listing criteria for Geocaching events. I think in all fairness that is not what this thread was originally meant to be. I will gladly reopen another thread and perhaps it would be more appropiate in the web site discussion forum that way Jeremy will feel free to discuss with us the possiblities of extedneding the calendar for Large Scale Events to a longer period of time and also possibly provide some guidance for future reference on time frames for events in general. With that thought in mind and to try and avert anymore animosity I am closing this thread. Rest assured we are discussing this issue with our local admin and we are actively working on a web site for GW3.

the federation

Promotions Director NEFGA