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Questioned Today By Property Owner


warheel

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This morning I was questioned about what I was doing by a property owner and I didn't handle it well.

 

I been geocaching for several months..I have a busy job and don't get to nearly as often as I like. Most of my finds consist of urban micros located near main streets.

 

After I dropped the kids off at school this morning, I drove to work through a parking lot of a business to get within 15 feet of a cache, which was at the deserted far end of the parking lot. I parked my SUV (big enough to hide behind, I thought) probably 100 feet from the nearest car at the business..it was early. I got out of my car and looked around for about 90 seconds. I see a man walking towards me and thought "oh crud" and started to get in my car. He asked me in an accusatory tone "what are you doing here. I'm the property owner and want to know." I was dressed in slacks and a golf shirt..not exactly like I'm up to anything..I said "nothing". I got in my car and he said, once again, in a semi sarcastic way "Have a nice day", to which I replied, "Have a nice weekend." As I drove off, he wrote down my license plate number and as I drove off I shouted out my plate number.

 

This experience hasn't soured me on geocaching..but it has soured me on urban micros. It was pretty obvious the guy had been watching me since the second I drove through his parking lot and parked at the empty part of it

 

This is serving as some sort of confession...had I been carrying a printout of the cache page, I would have shown it to him and tried to explain what I was doing. However, I didn't like his accusatory tone and let his actions dictate mine--a flaw of mine. I have wondered if I should go back and ask to speak to him to explain my actions to get it off my chest..but I really think by the way he carried himself, he wouldn't be interested in hearing what I had to say, especially after how I acted.

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warheel Posted on Aug 19 2004, 05:12 PM

  ...had I been carrying a printout of the cache page, I would have shown it to him and tried to explain what I was doing.

 

Could you mail him a copy of the brochure? Perhaps it would alleviate his worries about all those mysterious visitors that he has no doubt noticed before in the lot. The brochure would explain things well, and you wouldn't be placed in the uncomfortable situtation of having to face him again

 

I doubt that I would have reacted the way the owner did in that situation, but perhaps he has an employee who has been harassed by an ex that he felt the need to protect; perhaps he thought you were scoping out the place in advance for a robbery, etc.

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were you using his lot as a shortcut to a trail, or is the cache on his property? that might figure into his annoyance.

 

wen approached by land managers, the best method is pobably to be very, very polite. a hostile land manager is one where a geocache is about to get archived. it's hard to remeber this if you're trying to be all stealthy, but sometimes a land manager is won over by cachers who are open and friendly.

 

i'm sorry you had a bad day. don't get hung up on what a bad cat you were. just file it for reference.

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warheel Posted on Aug 19 2004, 05:12 PM

  ...had I been carrying a printout of the cache page, I would have shown it to him and tried to explain what I was doing.

 

Could you mail him a copy of the brochure? Perhaps it would alleviate his worries about all those mysterious visitors that he has no doubt noticed before in the lot. The brochure would explain things well, and you wouldn't be placed in the uncomfortable situtation of having to face him again

 

I doubt that I would have reacted the way the owner did in that situation, but perhaps he has an employee who has been harassed by an ex that he felt the need to protect; perhaps he thought you were scoping out the place in advance for a robbery, etc.

I'm not sure if that's the best way to handle it now...it wasn't handled well from the beginning (as Warheel stated) so the lot owner is irritated already by the experience...if you, or anyone for that matter, tries to explain GeoCaching to him he will most likely* not take a sudden liking to it...he was annoyed by the visit(s)...so the cause of that (GeoCaching) will most likely further annoy him. Had it been explained to him at the time it would have been a different story (not meant to be a dig on Warheel...I am not sure how I would have reacted either...)

 

*just basing this on my knowkedge of human behavior...I could be way off...

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warheel, I'm curious. Are you saying the cache was on private property or are you saying you just parked in the business' lot and were looking for the cache off his property?

I'm fairly new to geocaching, but don't you have to put a cache on public land or at least get the owner's permission first? I have only found caches so far on state or local park land.

If it really was on private property I think that was bad jugement on the part of whomever hid the cache.

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This morning as I was going to work, I took some photos of an item found on most large buldings :ph34r: ( I am planning to use a copy of this item to hide a cache in so I dont want to say what it is) :ph34r: , I always have my head phones on going to work, B) so I can get an update of the weather, road conditions, accidents, and latest news, so I will have an heads up on what to expect when I arrive at work. :blink: I also wear a uniform, that is often mistaken for police. B) But today after taking the photos, I was walking off, getting ready to cross the street when a security guard came running up, waving his hands and saying something, :huh: (I could see his mouth moving) ssssoooo I took off the head phones and waited for him to catch up. Right off the bat he started asking why I was taking the photos and what did I think I was doing. I was about ready to get snoty with him :mad: , then I remembered, he was just doing his job :unsure: , and I had done nothing wrong, B) so I told him, for 20 minutes I talked about Geocaching, and he listened to every word, I produced my GPSr, I explained that to him, I told him about local caches, about how the state parks are participating, I pulled out my PDA and showed him a few of the caches I had stored on it... I could have gone on and on and on ..... when just as he was asking how he could get involved and could he bring his kids and where could he find out more about it, We looked up and an elderly lady was getting ready to turn the wrong way on a very busy one way street, :o so we both jumped out and stopped this "accident" :blink: waiting to happen. As I was now late for work :ph34r: and he was already working, I bid him good luck, wave and was going about my way, when he hollored back at me "see ya at the treasure chest" :D with a big grin on his face. I will see him in the mornin, since I always go past his station on my way to work, and I will be more prepared for it. I am going to print out an easy find and give the copy to him. All in all, I think I converted another muggle.... But getting back on track, my point is, dont think you are doing anything wrong. You aren't, you are a player in a very popular game, and thats all. If the gentleman does not want you on his property, say you are sorry and move on, but dont think you did anything wrong,( unless you did see no trespassing signs and ignored them :mad: ) chances are, after explaining what you were doing, you might have a converted muggle on your hands B) , or you might make a new friend :D, or meet the father of your next girlfriend :blink: but anyway you look at it, YOU DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG, and in these post 9-11 times, people are going to ask if they think you are doing something wrong. Just be up front and tell them the truth, he might tell you to leave and not come back, he might say ok and leave you be, and you might just log another find :) so just tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may

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warheel, I'm curious. Are you saying the cache was on private property or are you saying you just parked in the business' lot and were looking for the cache off his property?

I'm fairly new to geocaching, but don't you have to put a cache on public land or at least get the owner's permission first? I have only found caches so far on state or local park land.

If it really was on private property I think that was bad jugement on the part of whomever hid the cache.

 

beater had the same question I did - if it was on HIS property, (and of course he was, in fact, the owner) then he should have known about the cache and your saying so should have releived him of any anxiety.

 

Sort of a weird situation here. If it is on his property and there was no permiso, then the hider is in deep doodoo.

 

These days you have GOT to know that if you are not in your own garage (with the door shut) , you are likely to be on someone's camera - be it private or government.

 

I do find it odd that someone walks out of a large enough business to have a parking lot as big as you describe and he says he is the land owner. Possible but I think rather unlikely. But no place to argue about it since you obviously don't belong there no matter who he is.

 

I tend to get my back up also when I am not doing anything wrong and I'm approached in a negative manner (accusingly). That is where having my nice calm level headed (or poor me - can you please help me) wife along helps sometimes. Not only in dealing with people but with keeping me calm too.

 

:ph34r:

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Thanks for the support, everyone. I think I would have handled the situation entirely differently had A) I been in a better mood B) had I found the cache and showed him, or C) if the owner had said in a friendly voice "hey buddy, everything OK over there?"..however, his body language was defensive to begin with.

 

Here is a little more background about the layout around the location of the cache (that I didn't find, BTW).

 

A main road is fronted by numerous shopping centers. with the parking lots all connected. Think of a large grocery store parking lot..this man's land, which has a stand alone building about the size of an 8 screen movie theater on it, is adjacent to the grocery store parking lot. I drove through the grocery store parking lot and continued through the parking lot on his property to get closer to the cache. As a matter of fact, I even saw the owner arrive in the parking lot that morning (a good 250 feet away from the cache) because I passed him in his car as I headed toward the cache. I have no doubt the guy was the landowner because I used to live about 1/2 mile from this location and patronized the business that was located there years ago before it closed.

 

As I drove through the vacant part of the lot, I saw the only logical area where the cache could be --somewhere on a probably 20' wide strip of land separating his parking lot from the parking lot on the next strip mall (this strip of land also meant the end of driving through parking lots as a way to get from strip mall to strip mall). I don't know if he owns the grassy area where I was searching or not. I suppose I will e-mail the cache owner to let him know of the guy.

 

I'm usually aware of all my surroundings--I had my eye on someone unlocking one of the offices at the next strip mall while this guy was walking toward me. Had I spotted him walking toward me, rather than worried about being muggled from the nearby business, I would have been long gone before he got there.

 

If the guy has noticed activity over towards that corner of his property (whether or not he owns the land where the cache is located), then IMO he could have approached me in a more friendly inquisitive manner. It is indeed a relatively new cache...one that I won't bother to find.

Edited by warheel
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A main road is fronted by numerous shopping centers. with the parking lots all connected. Think of a large grocery store parking lot..this man's land, which has a stand alone building about the size of an 8 screen movie theater on it, is adjacent to the grocery store parking lot. I drove through the grocery store parking lot and continued through the parking lot on his property to get closer to the cache. As a matter of fact, I even saw the owner arrive in the parking lot that morning (a good 250 feet away from the cache) because I passed him in his car as I headed toward the cache. I have no doubt the guy was the landowner because I used to live about 1/2 mile from this location and patronized the business that was located there years ago before it closed.

Just out of curiosity, what was the WOW factor for this cache as described by the cache owner? Doesn't sound very interesting to me.

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The problem is that people just don't understand. Look, I'm a cop (as well as a National Guardsman), and I see folks getting wrapped around the axel about the simplest things. When geocaching, we all look as if we're either scouting a location (because, after all, we're all potential targets...right?) or making a narcotics transaction.

 

Maybe having a printout of the cache's particulars would've helped...maybe not. But it sure couldn't have hurt.

 

I'm still waiting for my first confrontation (but, hey, I'm new at this). I hope to handle it with aplomb, but I may just lose it and tell the questioner to pack sand.

 

Meantime, take care y'all...

 

Airmetro

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We've been questioned more than once by nervous security guards on caches. We always tell the truth to anyone who looks like they are part of the property or are law enforcement people. (Ooops, except once, when we had only just pulled up and had not started looking yet.) If they are just muggles......my nephews keys are a good excuse. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes they have the dictatorship mentality and you cant do anything about that. Tell them nicely about geocaching and leave if requested. Then email the owner about the problem, or post a note on the cache page. It happens sometimes.

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This isn't about you, so don't be upset.

It MAY be about a cache owner who put the cache in a wrong place.

It PROBABLY is about a property owner with some sort of problem, maybe legal, maybe attitude. Maybe he's been watching people do this for weeks. Maybe people have been illegally parking up his lot to walk to other businesses....

But it isn't about you. :ph34r:

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You trespass on someone's property and, when caught red-handed by the property owner, expect him to welcome you with open arms and invite you in for tea and cookies?

 

Unfortunately, the situation described in the opening post of this thread is indicative of the general lack of respect far too many geocachers show for the property rights, and rules of usage, of others.

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This isn't about you, so don't be upset.

It MAY be about a cache owner who put the cache in a wrong place.

It PROBABLY is about a property owner with some sort of problem, maybe legal, maybe attitude. Maybe he's been watching people do this for weeks. Maybe people have been illegally parking up his lot to walk to other businesses....

But it isn't about you. :unsure:

I dont know if that is 100% on....

 

Not to bust Warheel's cahounas, but if I owned a parking lot and there was a strange vehicle parked at the deserted opposite end of it, and I see a guy coming out from behind his truck, I might be suspicious as well.....remember, most property owners know what is "normal" for their property, especially if they are there on a daily basis....I would have come out to see what was up.

 

The property owner had every right to inquire, and to state that he was the property owner....If it went down exactly as Warhell explained, I think that his reponses probably did more to make the guy concerned than anything.....

 

A straightforward answer would have probably calmed the guy's concerns, whereas "nothing" sounds like a tennage coverup story....obviously, Warheel was doing SOMETHING there (my Dad made taht abundantly clear everytime I used that "excuse", as I do now with my kiddies)....why not say what it was??

 

In the owner's mind, that meant potential trouble.....Remember, a property owner can be held liable for activities on his property in many states.....plus it IS his property.

 

This is a typical "fight or flight" reaction and I have done it more times than I'll admit to.... :ph34r: As new cachers, we feel a bit out of place...once we have been seasoned by some of these types of encounters we will know better how to handle it well....

 

I wouldn't worry about it Warheel....If you are near that area daily, you may want to stop by and visit the fellow, first apologizing for the replies you gave and for leaving him with a bad feeling about what just went down....and explain why it happened and what you were doing....If the fellow is reasonable all will be well and you will have helped a fellow human feel better about something that might keep bugging him for awhile, and maybe even wil a new Gecocaching recruit. If the guy is a jerk, he will not want to hear it and maybe even get a bad taste for Geocaching....but if that IS the case, it is better that the cache be moved or whatever ANYWAYS....andif he's a jerk we wouldn;t want him around anyways, right??

 

Just my $.02....I wouldn't stress out over it.

 

Shadango

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You know, I simply don't do those any more. It makes me way too uncomfortable. Anything too neighborhood-y, if it doesn't have a clearly signposted trailhead or cemetary or other public attraction, I drive away. I can think of one really cool historical spot that you got to by ditching the car in a neighborhood and following a path between two houses. I'd've been sorry to miss that, but even there somebody came to check me out. If a stranger would have no reason to be there, I'm out.

 

I don't have to do them all. Too many great walks out there I haven't done yet.

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You know, I simply don't do those any more. It makes me way too uncomfortable. Anything too neighborhood-y, if it doesn't have a clearly signposted trailhead or cemetary or other public attraction, I drive away. I can think of one really cool historical spot that you got to by ditching the car in a neighborhood and following a path between two houses. I'd've been sorry to miss that, but even there somebody came to check me out. If a stranger would have no reason to be there, I'm out.

 

I don't have to do them all. Too many great walks out there I haven't done yet.

I agree with AW, I skip caches like this one. I remember one where my GPS kept pointing to the foundation of a bed & breakfast. It would have involved me going through a gate and looking in the bushes next to the stairs. There was no mention on the cache page that this was cool, or that the cache was placed by the owner, or with his permission, so even though we were within 30 feet of the cache, we moved on.

 

I really dislike caches in residential areas because you usually wind up with logs like this one.

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If the guy has noticed activity over towards that corner of his property (whether or not he owns the land where the cache is located), then IMO he could have approached me in a more friendly inquisitive manner. It is indeed a relatively new cache...one that I won't bother to find.

I disagree with this attitude.

 

I've done security work before as well as managed property, and the first thing you learn when confronting suspicious behavior is to take ownership of the confrontation. It throws the suspicious recipient (you) off-balance causing a flight or "explain yourself" situation. The "Hey whatcha doing buddy?" merely puts the questioner into a passive position and allows the recipient to take the aggressive role, sometimes to the detriment of the inquisitor. You took flight and provided him with more fuel you were doing something illicit on his property.

 

Take this as a learning experience. You do need permission to be on private property or you risk being challenged. Closed or not, it is a place of business, and the owner is responsible by law and liability to make sure nothing illicit is happening on the property. A median between properties can still be private property even if the city has easement rights to it.

 

Next time, take the time to explain it to the person challenging you. You don't need a piece of paper to "prove" what you're doing. You'll find they generally become responsive once they understand what is happening. He might still advise you're trespassing, and ask you to leave but that's his right as a property owner, a property manager or a tenent.

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Hmmmmm....

I have had no problems when I explain what I am doing think it would have been a much better idea to just let him know what you were doing there. Alot of people seem to think this is big secret but it is a community activity the more the merrier I was introduced to this by asking a couple what they were up too and they explained it to me, I helped them look and now am doing it myself. Think there will be more problems with people trying to avoid answering questions then if they just explain what is up and give the people the link to geocahing.

 

Anyway

HAVE FUN AND KEEP IT CLEAN!

Team Terrere

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I was questioned last night at 11:45 pm by a couple of fireman while looking for a new cache in front of a fire station, I just told them I needed a clue off the plaque that was there, I didn't really need a clue but they bought it and they just walked away, I am not sure if they were confused or just thought I was nuts being out that late at night. :ph34r:

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what about private property thats also public???

Public access is the key.

RK, your comment here caught my attention because I just recently found a cache that is in a parking lot of an office building complex. It was the first of that kind that I've personally found, although I know there are tons of them in existence, and I wondered about the private property issue. The land is obviously not owned by the city or county, so it is privately owned property by some company.

 

Are you saying that it is not whether a cache is placed on privately owned property, but rather, whether it is placed on property that has public access that determines how it fits into this private property rule?

 

For the record, I feel too conspicuous doing this kind of cache, so I'm not asking because I want to place one -- just curious about the predominant interpretation of the private property rule since these caches seem to me to break it.

 

Thanks.

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