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Prohibition Against “commercial Caches / Caches Th


Thot

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I’m starting a new thread for this question, because it has gotten appended as a digression to a thread with an entirely different topic, and I am interested in understanding the answer to this new question.

 

If you want to read the background discussion it starts at the sixth message down in this thread

 

The question came up because, once I understood what APE caches are, I read the rule against “Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit” to prohibit APE caches. Yet, they are an official cache type with their own special icon.

 

I’m starting this with a repost of my last message in the above thread:

 

Your confusion lies in the REASON behind the no commercial cache rule.  Geocaching.com does not want to list commercial caches becuase they do not want people to HAVE to pay or be pressured to buy something while caching

That’s certainly a different interpretation of the rule than I concluded when I read the words "[using] the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly to solicit customers . . .”

 

I read ‘indirectly soliciting customers’ to include advertising – trying to draw customers to for your business or product.

 

So, by your interpretation one can use caches for advertising purposes so long as there is no payment required. Is that correct? For example, a restaurant owner could place a cache near the front door to his restaurant to acquaint potential customers with his restaurant, or a nurseryman could hide a cache in his nursery to introduce customers to his location and his wares. A business could set up a cache that randomly includes discount coupons and various inducements to visit their establishment. So long as no payment is required all such uses are permitted?

 

Is there general agreement this it the intended meaning of the prohibition against “Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit?” -- that the illustrations above are permitted under this rule?

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<snip>
Your confusion lies in the REASON behind the no commercial cache rule.  Geocaching.com does not want to list commercial caches becuase they do not want people to HAVE to pay or be pressured to buy something while caching

That’s certainly a different interpretation of the rule than I concluded when I read the words "[using] the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly to solicit customers . . .”

 

I read ‘indirectly soliciting customers’ to include advertising – trying to draw customers to for your business or product.

<snip>

You both are correct. GC.com doesn't want people to have to pay or be pressured to buy something while caching and they don't want caches to be hidden as an advertising attempt ment to draw customers to your business or product.

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A business could set up a cache that randomly includes discount coupons and various inducements to visit their establishment. So long as no payment is required all such uses are permitted?

 

This certainly violates the intention of the rule!!! B)

B) Now, I have to admit that if I owned a large nursery, I'd likely want to put a cache one the site so I could watch the people who came, and possibly they'd want to rent a nurse at my nursery.

A new cacher in Ohio will likely put caches on the river where many people canoe past, but the livery can not do that.

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As a cache reviewer, I would answer your question "no" -- I do not agree that your examples are permissible under the "no commercial caches" rule.

 

The Project A.P.E. caches are few in number -- just a handful of them were placed, and even less of them are still in place. They're an interesting footnote in geocaching history. Today I highly doubt that a group of 20 caches would receive its own cache type and icon. For pertinent modern day examples, I would point to the Yellow Jeep Travel Bug contest and the forthcoming Earthcache category.

 

As others have noted, what these all have in common is that they are ventures entered into cooperatively with Groundspeak, after Groundspeak reached a decision that the idea was consistent with the website's goals. As a volunteer reviewing a cache placed inside a tavern or behind the counter at a diner, I cannot make that determination. I would archive the cache and let the owner know that prior permission from Groundspeak is required.

 

I hope that you find this explanation helpful.

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What about a cache at a place that is only used for commercial purposes for a few days a year? For example, I want to place a cache in a 150+ year old treee in my grandparents front yard (you can stand inside the tree). But, my grandparents house/farm is a christmas tree farm that sells trees 3 weekends a year. Would this be allowed? (It is located in PA)

 

Dave

 

edit: speling

Edited by dhenning25
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What about a cache at a place that is only used for commercial purposes for a few days a year? For example, I want to place a cache in a 150+ year old treee in my grandparents front yard (you can stand inside the tree). But, my grandparents house/farm is a christmas tree farm that sells trees 3 weekends a year. Would this be allowed? (It is located in PA)

 

Dave

 

edit: speling

Perhaps it could be disabled on those weekends?

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Renegade Knight is correct in his recollection of the cache listing guidelines.

 

And DHenning, I wouldn't worry too much about the cache you described. Sounds like a cool place to share with fellow geocachers. But if your cache page had an animated background full of Christmas lights and text that played up the tree farm, that'd be different.

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Well, since I fired off an e-mail a solid 3 weeks ago without a response, I'll offer my question here for input. Another local cacher contacted the education director of the local zoo about creating a series of caches or a multi inside the zoo.

 

The premise behind it is that in her non-work life she teaches groups of kids (I'm thinking Brownies or Girl Scouts or something similar) how to navigate using GPS. She would love to have a cache inside the zoo not only for her 'students', but as an added bonus for visitors to the zoo. Everything would be approved by zoo staff, and they would stock the final stage with items from the gift shop. I've already designed the initial cache concept, but am waiting for approval from the zoo director before proceeding any further.

 

Yes, visitors must pay to enter the zoo, but not to participate in finding the cache. It would be available to all upon entering the zoo.

 

How would this fare against rules prohibiting commercial caches? The zoo receives revenue from those seeking a find on it, but at the same time it adds another element of fun to the visit, which takes you through every portion of the zoo, ensuring you see everything there is to see.

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How would this fare against rules prohibiting commercial caches? The zoo receives revenue from those seeking a find on it, but at the same time it adds another element of fun to the visit, which takes you through every portion of the zoo, ensuring you see everything there is to see.

I see this exactly like a cache in a place like Disney. Lots of fun, but no longer allowed.

The current guidelines don't provide for commercial intent.

It would be nice if they did. I don't thing anyone pays hundreds of dollars JUST to find a cache in Disneyworld. They are already there, they are paying to enter anyway. If the intent is just to give the family something else to do while in the park, I don't see a problem with it. If Disney themselves hid one and stocked it full of 10% off coupons, that would be commercial intent.

 

The problem is, unless you are a mindreader, it's almost impossible to know what someone's intentions are. You think virtuals are subjective now? Imagine if a reviewer had to try and guess the hider's intent on every cache?

To just flat out ban any kind of commercial cache seems to be about the only way to regulate it.

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Bringing my post from the other thread:

 

I have recently found a travel bug which came with instructions to take it to a certain place (some business, I guess) between 9am-5pm from Monday to Friday and then I will get a $5 Subway gift certificate. But I'm not forced to go there, I can just drop the TB in another cache without going for the gift certificate. However, this TB seems to be of somewhat commercial nature. The TB page has the Subway logo on it. Is this allowed?

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Another local cacher contacted the education director of the local zoo about creating a series of caches or a multi inside the zoo.

 

<snip>Yes, visitors must pay to enter the zoo, but not to participate in finding the cache.  It would be available to all upon entering the zoo.

 

How would this fare against rules prohibiting commercial caches? 

Given my recent posts on this subject I'm obviously not an expert on this, but as I read the "Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit" rule a cache like you outlined would be permitted as long as it is a public (city/municipal/county/state) zoo. That is, as long as the zoo is owned and operated by a governmental body. If it were a commercially owned zoo it would be a different thing. I don't think the fee is the issue, rather it's the location itself. You can place caches in public parks whether there's a fee or not. There are caches around me in areas owned by a city, county state or Federal Govt. where a fee is required to enter. In fact three of the nearest caches to me are in a nature center that charges a fee. As I understand it you need only explain in the cache description that access to the cache requires a fee of $?? dollars.

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Another local cacher contacted the education director of the local zoo about creating a series of caches or a multi inside the zoo.

 

<snip>Yes, visitors must pay to enter the zoo, but not to participate in finding the cache.  It would be available to all upon entering the zoo.

 

How would this fare against rules prohibiting commercial caches? 

Given my recent posts on this subject I'm obviously not an expert on this, but as I read the "Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit" rule a cache like you outlined would be permitted as long as it is a public (city/municipal/county/state) zoo. That is, as long as the zoo is owned and operated by a governmental body. If it were a commercially owned zoo it would be a different thing. I don't think the fee is the issue, rather it's the location itself. You can place caches in public parks whether there's a fee or not. There are caches around me in areas owned by a city, county state or Federal Govt. where a fee is required to enter. In fact three of the nearest caches to me are in a nature center that charges a fee. As I understand it you need only explain in the cache description that access to the cache requires a fee of $?? dollars.

The guidelines specifically refer to "for-profit locations that require an entrance fee." My take on it would be that as long as the zoo is a non-profit organization, it's acceptable. There are a number of parks in my area run by a non-profit conservancy that charges admission. A non-profit zoo would seem in my opinion to be similar in nature.

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The guidelines specifically refer to "for-profit locations that require an entrance fee." My take on it would be that as long as the zoo is a non-profit organization, it's acceptable.

I agree that what you say seems reasonable, but some non-profit organizations are hard to distinguish from for-profit organizations. And, the rule only refers to for-profit organizations as an example -- not as the sole case. The full quote is:

 

"Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas may not be listed."

 

To me this makes non-profits less clear. But again, I hope you're right.

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My only reference is a result of a virtual cache I wanted to place in a pizza establishment a couple of years ago. The purpose was not to solicit business for this establishment (it didn't need any help anyway), but because there was a real GB racing plane hanging from the ceiling of this extablishment (See movie Rocketeer if you don't know what a GB is). Anyway it was disallowed because of this rule. To bad, but they were right and I should have read the rules better. :ph34r:

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I would just hit up your review and get some feedback, as it is somewhat subjective weather an iffy cache will be approved.

 

I have a cache near me that is behind the counter of a large ice cream shop. You have to ask the counterperson/cashier to retrieve it and hand it to you. You are almost compelled/guilted into buying something. Is it commercial? Yup. Was it approved? Yup.

 

Ed

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Ahhh, but when was it approved? In late 2002, perhaps?

 

It was caches like this, requiring you to go into a place of business and ask an employee to log the cache, that were in part responsible for the adoption of the current guidelines regarding a commercial cache, dating back to spring of 2003. (The basic rule goes all the way back to 2001 ... see the announcements thread if you're curious.) If submitted today, I would not approve a new cache submission of the type you described.

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Ahhh, but when was it approved?  In late 2002, perhaps?

 

It was caches like this, requiring you to go into a place of business and ask an employee to log the cache, that were in part responsible for the adoption of the current guidelines regarding a commercial cache, dating back to spring of 2003.  (The basic rule goes all the way back to 2001 ... see the announcements thread if you're curious.)  If submitted today, I would not approve a new cache submission of the type you described.

Hey Keystone Approver,

 

The cache I was talking about is fairly new...It was Hidden: 5/1/2004

 

Just one of those things, I guess...

 

There is also a newer cache near me (Hidden: 6/11/2004) that is in a barber shop, and the barber (who is not the hider) has to retrieve the container and hand it to you...also a recently approved commercial cache.

 

Ed

Edited by The Badge & the Butterfly
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Ahhh. I see the cache you're referring to. If you look at the bottom of the cache description, it says "Posted with special permission from Groundspeak." I remember this cache coming up for discussion among the reviewers. It was initially denied, because of the commercial caches rule that we're discussing in this topic. The cache owner appealed and obtained permission from Groundspeak headquarters. That is exactly the procedure that is called for by the rule.

 

The owner stated during the review process:

 

This cache has owners approval and DOES NOT REQUIRE any ADVERTISING and DOES NOT require any purchase! NOT for profit just for flare! While located in a business, there is no name or identity of the business listed in the cache posting.

 

If when seeking this cache, you felt compelled to make a purchase or that the cache was too commercial, then I would encourage you to follow up offline with the cache owner and/or the reviewer for your area, Hemlock, who listed this cache after it was authorized by Groundspeak.

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