Gps In Aviation

[+Maxine&Me]

I have a handheld Garmin Vista. I am back into flying after a long layoff. GPS's were not on the scene the last time I flew. I would like to use my handheld in my new hobby but it seems that all aviation product (Jeppesen etc.) require "Avitaion" GPS's. Is there really a difference or is this just marketing tatics at work.

 

I hate to buy another GPS. Has anyone used a general purpose GPS in aviation. Particular to track VORs etc? It would be nice to have airports and their associated communication frequencies pop up on the moving map. Are there any software products that I can load to support this?

[+Lucanos]

One of my mates has a Garmin III Pilot, which he swears by and uses nearly all the time. So if buying a separate GPS specifically for flying this one might be an option.

 

I also have a Garmin Vista, but I haven't really looked for any software like this as of yet. But, on the bright side, if you were thinking of jumping from the aircraft the Vista's "Jumpmaster" program would probably help out...

[gpsindy]

Have you seen the Garmin GPSMAP 296? Though pricy, this unit is AWESOME! The 296 also a marine and automobile navigation unit with voice guidance. The 296 also is a very nice looking unit. Here is a link to the 296 on GPS City: http://www.gpscity.com/gps/brados/62286.2....562823/296.html

Edited August 18, 2004 by gpsindy

[+airmetro]

I use a 296 when flying, and an eTrex Legend for ground stuff. The 296 is just too big to carry around. I've heard that Lowrance makes a decent dual-use GPSr, but I have no idea how pricey it would be.

 

As far as VFR flying goes, even a ground unit should be just fine (particularly if you're a "local area" flyer). IF you really need the aviation databases (obstacles, intersections, airways, etc.), then I can't speak too highly of the Garmin 296.

 

Good luck, and fly scared.

 

Airmetro

[+wickedsprint]

There is a website available that can dwnload aviation waypoiints to your gps (your gps holds 1000), it lets you narrow it down to like "all ndbs and vors and aerodromes within 350 miles of such and such..etc..I used that with my Vista. If you are interest3ed I will dig it up. It is quasi involved and you have to know how to dick around with importing batches of waypoints using excel and notepad type files. I don't even recall how to do it..but the point is..it allows your vista to work fine..lol

[+wickedsprint]

here is the website with all of the directions and whatnot in the help section..and use one of the three types of importers at the top. Make sure you mess with the prefix as well so you can use Ks for navaids or airports..etc..and you can change the symbols accordingly..etc..it's a pretty powerful setup when you consider how fast it is.

 

http://131.238.38.204/~sarangan/aviation/garmin/

Edited August 19, 2004 by wickedsprint

[+StormCrow42]

Garmin has also recently (or in the near future) released the GPSMap 96 and 96C handhelds (like the 76 series, but with aviation features).

 

http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap96/

http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap96c/

[Neo_Geo]

The difference in an aviation unit is that the firmware is programmed to recognize the aeronautical specific information with their associated waypoint symbols. Change a few lines of code and charge 3X the price because they know pilots will pay the extra money

 

The sweet thing about Garmin mapping units is that some people have reverse-engineered the mapping software. It is possible to make your own maps! In my minimal amount of spare time, I'm working on making some MapSource compatible aeronautical maps.

 

The documentation in producing such maps is sketchy, and the work is time-consuming.

 

I've got all the VORs, VOR-DMEs, VORTACs, NDBs and fixes formatted for use in GPS TrackMaker. My goal is to make them all searchable POIs in actual uploadable maps for Garmin handhelds. If possible, later I'd include runways and V & J airways

 

If anyone's interested, send me email and I'll send you the files. At least for now you can use them as waypoints until I get the actual maps off the ground.

Edited August 19, 2004 by Neo_Geo

[+wickedsprint]

If it is any help..topo has the layouts of alot of the runways for the bigger airports.

[+NightPilot]

The only real difference in aviation units is that they have aviation data installed - airports, navaids, etc. All this information is available for free from the FAA, but it's already in the GPS. Our aircraft have IFR-certified GPS units installed, with databases on a card that is changed monthly, in addition to memory for user waypoints. Before we got those, I made do with a handheld, with manually entered waypoints.

 

With a cable, you can get the data and put it into your GPS easily enough, without spending $1,000 or so for the GPS. Like everything else related to aviation, they're overpriced, but if you have lots of money, you have to spend it on something, huh?

[+graciebaby]

Wrong!! Pilots do not pay the extra money because they "will". We are forced to by the cronies in the FAA (but for a good reason). The FAA certifies GPS and INS units and everything that goes in that little single engine Cessna or that $40 million Gulfstream or that 747 right down to the kitchen stove and the seat you sit on. If fact, there have been serious accidents because aircraft operators have used equipment/wiring, etc that was not certified by the FAA.

 

The guys that make aircraft navigation units have to pay extra insurance and it cost lots for the TSO and certification testing.

 

So that comment is false. We (pilots) don't like paying extra, especially for AVGas or JetA. But to use the GPS or any other nav aid in instrument flying it must be certified. It is illegal to use an instument for precision approaches that has not been certified by the jerks at the FAA. If an accident happens and a little GPS was in the cockpit the lawsuit just about hits the fan.

 

So think about it on your next flight on American Airlines. Do you want the equipment in the cockpit to be something out of a passangers bag when the captain is shooting a precision approach down to 250ft AGL traveling at 160kts? I don't think anyone wants that. However we do use radio altimeters and ILS's to get you on the ground safely. We even have a copilot that is supposed to be looking out the window for the dadgum runway.

 

But for simple VFR backup, ya can't beat a GPSMAP 76CS. As a very seasoned Corporate Pilot with a bunch of hours flying around the world, the GPS comes in very handy. But I "will" trust my certified cockpit nav equipment to get me on the ground, not a $600 GPS. At least if something goes wrong, I can blame it on the source that certified the equipment.

 

Also, flying (even) a single engine Piper in 0/0 IFR is tough enough. I don't need another instrument stuck to the panel with velcro to distract my instrument scan.

 

Just like "guns don't kill people, people kill people....and airplanes don't kill people, stupid captains and poor copilots kill people (in 98% of all aircraft accidents).

[+NightPilot]

Come on Gracie, get real. I didn't say you use a handheld GPS to fly an ILS. You can't fly IFR using a GPS unless your GPS is installed and certified. But flying VFR in a spam can doesn't require an aviation GPS. Any consumer GPS with the necessary waypoints will get the job done. It's more convenient to have the database installed for you, but you pay a LOT of money for free data.

 

And I prefer to do the approach the other way - I let the FO fly the approach, while I keep an eye on him. PICMA is a concept I believe in.

[Neo_Geo]

I was referring to the

GPSMAP® 96C Vs. GPSMAP® 76C

 

and

 

GPSMAP® 296 Vs. StreetPilot III

 

Does the FAA put a gun to your head and tell you that you have to buy a 96C or a 296? No, but pilots buy them. Same units - different firmware - much more money.

Edited August 19, 2004 by Neo_Geo

[+wickedsprint]

Thirdly..whats a vors certified accuracy..one degree...so using the 60 to 1 rule, your allowable error gets WELL outside the accuracy of a 600 dollar handheld Even an ILS can't touch the accuracy of gps. That being said...I trust my vors thank you very much..hahaha

 

The gpsIII pilot makes a better aviation tool database wise since it has a better basemap than the 96 series..they have the same lite basemap as the 60 series. The gps III pilot uses the nice basemap that has railroads and alot of other streets you see ona VFR chart.

Edited August 19, 2004 by wickedsprint

[+airmetro]

Heh. There's nothing quite like a bunch of pilots discussing gadgetry, is there?

[+wickedsprint]

Well I am not a pilot I just have a bit of a flying background (was in WSO training but stomache could not handle some other pilot jerking the plane around without me at the controls..I am too much of a control freak I guess), will eventually finish up my rating when I get up to wyoming. Ultimate goal is to get my tailwheel rating (while I do the privates so it's two birds with one stone) and then buy something fun to abuse in the sky. I would never want to fly as my job, I cannot imagine how airline pilots don't shoot themselves..I would be bored to tears.

[Yogi The Bear]

Maxine&Me,

 

If I were using the Vista as a backup while flying VFR locally I would load it up with all the local waypoints and VORs. Otherwise, for a better backup unit I'd go with a pocket pc and upload some pocket pc software for airport frequencies, waypoints, VORs and runway information.

 

I compared both pocket PCs and Garmin GPS units a while ago. Pocket PCs are custimizable and there's a great variety of software available.

 

Garmin makes the GPSMAP 96C which is nice for both VFR and IFR flying. I didn't see any mention of airport frequencies in the 96's feature list though.

 

http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/menu_aviation.php

 

http://www.ipaqsoft.net/php/newresults.php?type=aviation

 

http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap96c/

Edited August 19, 2004 by Yogi The Bear

[+Maxine&Me]

Thanks for all of the great replies. It looks like my best bet is to load the coords of the various NavAids and use those as waypoints. I'll still rely on the old sectional for Specal Use Airspace, Airport frequencies etc.

 

I like the idea of modifying a MapSorce Map, I'll look into that as a long term option. As I have had an on and off love affair with aviation, I want to ensure that I will stick with it before plunking down the $600-$1,000 for an Avitaion Unit.

 

I have seen navigation software for laptops that look pretty cool. Has anyone had experince interfacing their GPS with a laptop and using that in the cockpit. I am concerned with spending too much time staring in the right seat with that option?

[+Maxine&Me]

here is the website with all of the directions and whatnot in the help section..and use one of the three types of importers at the top. Make sure you mess with the prefix as well so you can use Ks for navaids or airports..etc..and you can change the symbols accordingly..etc..it's a pretty powerful setup when you consider how fast it is.

 

http://131.238.38.204/~sarangan/aviation/garmin/

That is an awesome site....THANKS !!! I hope I can figure it out

[+Nebula 3]

Since we've got a bunch of pilots chatting it up...

 

Have any of you been to any caches that are aviation-related? I visited the "Plane Crash Cache" here in Boston a few weeks ago and enjoyed it. There are two up in Maine I want to do...one is the crash site of an F-100 Voodoo and the other is a crash site of a B-25 Mitchell.

 

There's a crashed twin in the woods off the end of one of the runways on Martha's Vineyard. Would make a GREAT cache location as it's about a mile walk from a decent parking area through light-growth woods, but it's JUST inside of the airport boundary fence. I noticed it last winter on the missed when there were no leaves on the trees...you'd never know its there in the summer.

 

Take care...

-Nebula 3-

 

"It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground."

[kb9nvh]

Thanks for all of the great replies. It looks like my best bet is to load the coords of the various NavAids and use those as waypoints. I'll still rely on the old sectional for Specal Use Airspace, Airport frequencies etc.

 

I like the idea of modifying a MapSorce Map, I'll look into that as a long term option. As I have had an on and off love affair with aviation, I want to ensure that I will stick with it before plunking down the $600-$1,000 for an Avitaion Unit.

 

I have seen navigation software for laptops that look pretty cool. Has anyone had experince interfacing their GPS with a laptop and using that in the cockpit. I am concerned with spending too much time staring in the right seat with that option?

On thing I haven't seen mentioned (and in my opinion the most important feature) is that the Aviation specific gps's give you proximity warnings to restricted airspaces. These can be irregular shapes and altitudes.

 

I dont know of any nonaviation gps that does this for you...and if it did, how hard would it be to input all those restriced airspaces???

 

Of course, since 9/11 NOTAM's are a daily adventure.

[+Maxine&Me]

Thanks for all of the great replies. It looks like my best bet is to load the coords of the various NavAids and use those as waypoints.  I'll still rely on the old sectional for Specal Use Airspace, Airport frequencies etc.

 

On thing I haven't seen mentioned (and in my opinion the most important feature) is that the Aviation specific gps's give you proximity warnings to restricted airspaces. These can be irregular shapes and altitudes.

 

I dont know of any nonaviation gps that does this for you...and if it did, how hard would it be to input all those restriced airspaces???

 

Of course, since 9/11 NOTAM's are a daily adventure.

 

Exactly, that feature is the one I was most hoping to emulate some how. I guess in this case, there is no substitute for route planning and situation awareness. We have an Army Depot that is now prohibited airspace that is real near a local airport. I'd hate to get the visit from an F16 because of unexpected winds aloft.

[byrdog]

About a year ago I started a project to build Aviation maps for the Garmin GPS. I had a V at the time, have since upgraded to a 276c.

 

The project has stalled but I am willing to start working again if there is interest in the project. Mostly I need input on what would make it usefull and that I would not be the only person using it.

 

I put some documentation and screenshots here:AirGuideVFR

 

Any interest in building or using please let me know.

 

Scott

[Neo_Geo]

Yeah byrdog, I got your email a couple of days ago and have been wanting to reply. I'd be VERY interested in collaborating!!! Look for an email from me later in the week.