Can We Define A Find?!

[+Team DEMP]

Just received this email from a cache on my watchlist...

 

XXXXX found XXXXXX (Traditional Cache) at 8/15/2004

 

In the process of looking thru the bushes, this turned into a CITO event for me: there were many bottles and cans hidden in the bushes.

 

Since the cache was not in a obvious spot for a nighttime search, I had to return to the car and decode the clue. Since the cache was missing, I left a printout of the web page with my name on it. Thanks.

 

Unbelievable!!

[+Mopar]

That is not a find, that is a DNF combined with littering.

[+Renegade Knight]

DNF.

 

Tournament Rules (still in development) say No log, No find, No Exceptions.

[avroair]

What constitutes a log?

 

If I don't have a pen, I write my name with a stick. Otherwise, I leave something in the cache to verify that I have visited it.

 

On the other hand, my wife rarely signs the logbook. She just finds it, looks thru it and puts it back. I am encouraging her to sign it.

 

Poking about for any length of time and not finding the container is still a DNF.

 

I found a cacje. but the ammo can was frozen shut. I logged as a DNF, however I have subsequently been told by others it would have been acceptable to log as a find. (not by the owner himself though). So I went back into that forsaken swamp during the spring.

[+JMBella]

What constitutes a log?

 

If I don't have a pen, I write my name with a stick. Otherwise, I leave something in the cache to verify that I have visited it.

Hmmm... Like this?

Edited August 16, 2004 by JMBella

[+Squealy]

It sounds to me like the person Dave is referring to just didn't find what they are looking for.

 

I have been to spots and found that the cache is missing - I verify the spot with the owner and ask if it ok with them to log a find. Most people seem cool with it as long as they are convinced you were in the right spot. Perhaps, this is not technically a find - b/c I didn't physically find the cache.

 

As far as what Mark said, about finding the cache frozen - well, he found it - not getting it open is a different thing. I think that is a find.

 

Joe and I found one encased in ice as well and it took us a while to chip through it and get the cache out. We didn't know the owner - so weren't sure if they would accept a pic as proof we were there.

 

Dave's reference seems to be a bit different than these examples - sounds like they didn't find it - then threw some paper of the ground in frustration.

 

I guess until there is an "official" ruling, it is up to the cache owner to decide what they will allow people to log as finds.

[+briansnat]

I'd say 90 percent of geocachers will call that a DNF. There is a small subset who will try to use any excuse to claim a find...cache, or no cache. Most of us know who they are and that their "numbers" aren't worth the computer screen they're displayed on.

 

The trouble is that there are no real rules and people define finds according to their personal ethics (or lack thereof).

 

I found a cacje. but the ammo can was frozen shut. I logged as a DNF, however I have subsequently been told by others it would have been acceptable to log as a find. (not by the owner himself though). So I went back into that forsaken swamp during the spring.

 

Hey, I would have let you get away with that, you should have said something. You found the cache. I think its the people who don't find caches and claim finds that have people shaking their heads.

Edited August 16, 2004 by briansnat

[+JMBella]

I have been to spots and found that the cache is missing - I verify the spot with the owner and ask if it ok with them to log a find. Most people seem cool with it as long as they are convinced you were in the right spot.

 

My opinion is, If the cache is meant to be an easy grab and the owner gives you their blessing and it's mentioned in the log that it's no longer there, I can live with that as a "find". What I don't agree with is if a cache is 20 feet up a tree and you can't figure out how to get it, but since you actually see it, you log it as a find. There's a big difference there. Some players make a habit out of assuming that since they didn't find it, it must be gone therefore they claim it as a find.

[+Mopar]

There's a big difference there. Some players make a habit out of assuming that since they didn't find it, it must be gone therefore they claim it as a find.

No big difference. Unless you eventually find it or are with someone else who has, you never really know if it's missing or not. More then once I've killed 30-45 minutes searching for an "easy find". In one case, the owner was so sure it had to be gone if I couldn't find it, she ran right out to check it. Still there. Went back a few weeks later and found it in under 30 seconds in a place I swear I looked 40 times before.

[+Squealy]

What I don't agree with is if a cache is 20 feet up a tree and you can't figure out how to get it, but since you actually see it, you log it as a find. There's a big difference there. Some players make a habit out of assuming that since they didn't find it, it must be gone therefore they claim it as a find.

Was this on the Lotus Lake one?

 

 

Even Mugsy and her bum hip climbed all the way up this one.

[+briansnat]

There's a big difference there. Some players make a habit out of assuming that since they didn't find it, it must be gone therefore they claim it as a find.

 

Ya never know. I had a cache that was in a small, white container about the size of a margarine tub, hidden in a tree stump. I received an e-mail from someone who posted a DNF and he attached a photo of an empty small, white container about the size of a margarin tub on the ground, next to a tree stump. I was going tell him to change the DNF to a find, then archive the cache.

 

I went to the cache site to trash out the cache container and found the cache safely hidden in its hiding place. On the ground, about 50 feet away, was a margarine tub sitting next to a stump that was nearly identical to the one that contained the cache.

 

Anyway, I never got the idea behind claiming missing caches as a find. To me the idea is to find caches, not where they were, or where you are pretty sure they were.

[+JMBella]

What I don't agree with is if a cache is 20 feet up a tree and you can't figure out how to get it, but since you actually see it, you log it as a find. There's a big difference there.  Some players make a habit out of assuming that since they didn't find it, it must be gone therefore they claim it as a find.

Was this on the Lotus Lake one?

 

 

Even Mugsy and her bum hip climbed all the way up this one.

Yep that would be Lotus Lake.

 

There may not be one black and white definition. At least not in my mind. Generally, if you don't find it you don't find it. We've already gone over the variables and what it really comes down to is if you can sleep at night with every one of you finds then hey, who are we to argue. I can say that out of 500 + finds, two of them were not "traditional" finds. Both I had verified beyond a shadow of a doubt where the cache was supposed to be. One I had verified with the owner where it was and was granted the find. I also offered to replace the cache which was accepted. The other was a very old cache where the owner was no longer active, I verified the location with a cacher that previously found it and I replaced that one too.

 

I think we all agree that if we find a busted and muggled cache container near GZ that's a find right? What if we find some contents of the cache near GZ? (Assuming it's verified that they were the actual contents.)

[+lostinjersey]

There may not be one black and white definition. At least not in my mind. Generally, if you don't find it you don't find it. We've already gone over the variables and what it really comes down to is if you can sleep at night with every one of you finds then hey, who are we to argue. I can say that out of 500 + finds, two of them were not "traditional" finds. Both I had verified beyond a shadow of a doubt where the cache was supposed to be. One I had verified with the owner where it was and was granted the find. I also offered to replace the cache which was accepted. The other was a very old cache where the owner was no longer active, I verified the location with a cacher that previously found it and I replaced that one too.

 

I think we all agree that if we find a busted and muggled cache container near GZ that's a find right? What if we find some contents of the cache near GZ? (Assuming it's verified that they were the actual contents.)

generally speaking there should be something to find though. If the contents are scattered about then you can retrieve them, and put them back in the container. Or take them with you and return them to the cache hider. or come back another time with a container of your own. but when its not there, when there was *N*othing to *F*ind, when thats a NF then, isn't it?

[+lostinjersey]

I found a cache. but the ammo can was frozen shut. I logged as a DNF, however I have subsequently been told by others it would have been acceptable to log as a find. (not by the owner himself though). So I went back into that forsaken swamp during the spring.

 

Hey, I would have let you get away with that, you should have said something. You found the cache. I think its the people who don't find caches and claim finds that have people shaking their heads.

hehehehe...

 

are you talking about this container???

 

 

I wrested it from the hidey hole where you had placed it and kept it as a sourvenier of the days fun.

[+briansnat]

I think we all agree that if we find a busted and muggled cache container near GZ that's a find right? What if we find some contents of the cache near GZ? (Assuming it's verified that they were the actual contents.)

 

I'd say finding a muggled container is a find and finding the contents and logbook is a find. Finding some contents, I personally wouldn't.

 

hehehehe...

 

are you talking about this container???

 

 

No, it was an ammo box.

Edited August 17, 2004 by briansnat

[mortonfox]

I think we all agree that if we find a busted and muggled cache container near GZ that's a find right? What if we find some contents of the cache near GZ? (Assuming it's verified that they were the actual contents.)

In one case, all I found was the cache lid (with geocaching written on it) and a travel bug. I considered that more than sufficient for a find. Of course I took the travel bug.

[avroair]

My first cache my wife and I did in Prague, Czech Republic was a 1.5/2 with a great view of the city. After checking out the soviet giant pendulum nearby we went down to search for the cache. My GPS was low on batteries but I was able to get within 20 feet for 20 seconds before it died.

 

We hopped the wall and spent well over an hour searching the slope. It was lightly snowing so we called it a day. I did find a small plastic spice bottle, but the top was missing and the contents empty... I remember thinking, boy do they hide caches well here! I was planning to do a 2.5/2.5 how long is that going to take me to find!!! All day? All vacation? I posted a DNF and the owner told me that I had actually found the cache container (albeit 200 feet away) and that it had been muggled. Since I had found part of the container, he let me log the find since I wasn't going to be back in the country any time soon.

 

On the other hand, I had to archive my Verona Park multi because a cacher got near the spot and didn't want to touch it and but still logged a find. The next couple of cachers followed suit. None of them even attempted to retrieve the cache.

[+briansnat]

On the other hand, I had to archive my Verona Park multi because a cacher got near the spot and didn't want t o touch it and but still logged a find

 

You mean I didn't have to go back?

[+dhenninger]

I read the cache page, that should count as a find