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Found A Benchmark


Webfoot

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While on vacation in Utah, we went looking for this cache. As you can see by the log, we stumbled upon a benchmark that isn't in the geocaching system. This benchmark is less than 500 feet from the above cache, yet the closest benchmark is listed as being 4.4 miles away.

 

The coordinates of the benchmark are

 

N37 34.023 W112 50.925

 

The benchmark is literally right next to the trail which we walked down to find the cache.

 

A friend of mine suggested that I post it here to see if I could get some help.

 

Here's a larger version of the benchmark. It's dated 1938.

9e97d9ad-f09b-4e9c-810a-cd75631129a0.jpg

 

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me.

Edited by Webfoot
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Webfoot -

 

That's an excellent USGS benchmark but, you're right, it is not in the Geocaching database and it's not in the NGS database, either (the two are about 99% + congruent). This is not unusual. A good number (more than half, I think) of the USGS benchmarks were never entered into the National Spatial Reference System (NGS database). I don't know why.

 

There are thousands of such marks - USGS, BLM, Dept of Interior, states, municipalities, utilities, etc etc etc - that are not in the system.

 

Some of us refer to these marks as no-PIDs, others call them unincorporated marks.

 

It's a good-looking benchmark, but you can't log a "FOUND IT" in Geocaching, and the system does not (yet?) have a provision for creating a datasheet for a no-PID mark.

 

will

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Webfoot -

 

That's an excellent USGS benchmark but, you're right, it is not in the Geocaching database and it's not in the NGS database, either (the two are about 99% + congruent). This is not unusual. A good number (more than half, I think) of the USGS benchmarks were never entered into the National Spatial Reference System (NGS database). I don't know why.

 

There are thousands of such marks - USGS, BLM, Dept of Interior, states, municipalities, utilities, etc etc etc - that are not in the system.

 

Some of us refer to these marks as no-PIDs, others call them unincorporated marks.

 

It's a good-looking benchmark, but you can't log a "FOUND IT" in Geocaching, and the system does not (yet?) have a provision for creating a datasheet for a no-PID mark.

 

will

Seventhings

 

Thanks for your information. It's really weird that they'd go to the trouble of putting out a benchmark, and yet not have it in their database.

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It's really weird that they'd go to the trouble of putting out a benchmark, and yet not have it in their database.

 

The benchmark in question may very well be in the USGS database but not the NGS database. Just because a particular marker isn't in the NGS database doesn't mean that it's not important or not used. There are literally hundreds of thousands of marks that aren't in the NGS database yet are useful to the agencies that set them.

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If all it took for another agency that set bench marks to submit it to NGS was a brief note about what was set and the position/elevation data they would submit it and it would be in the database.

 

If that was all it took, there would be a lot of very bad data in the NGS database that could lead to serious trouble. NGS has such high standards for the quality of the data about their survey marks that other federal and state agencies typically do not submit data in the rigorous NGS quality format.

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If all it took for another agency that set bench marks to submit it to NGS was a brief note about what was set and the position/elevation data they would submit it and it would be in the database.

 

If that was all it took, there would be a lot of very bad data in the NGS database that could lead to serious trouble. NGS has such high standards for the quality of the data about their survey marks that other federal and state agencies typically do not submit data in the rigorous NGS quality format.

I don't doubt that all of that is true. What's surprising is that they will then accept almost every one of *our* Recoveries! Although, a Recovery is far different from an actual Monumenting, so one must assume that the standards for Recoveries are looser. Which is very nice :P I suppose that they really appreciate having so many volunteers out there; certainly *this* volunteer has fun helping! :mad:

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Well us Modern day Volunteer's "The way I understand it" have the most precise equiptment to date.

It is more accurate than any method used to this date for determining precise longs and lats.

The GPS is more accurate than ever planned and is why we are now able to submit coordinates along with recoveries.

 

The near future holds centimeter grade accuracy for hand helds.

 

It is available now but alot more (MATH)geodetic computation to the geoid is performed on the coordinates before they are released by the NGS.

 

You will find that if you too take your time gathering data and retaining a high degree of attention to details you coords will be very precise.

 

Time is the major function and it is a great detail in determination of the said coords,but most want to take a quick reading and go on.

 

If you do like the NGS it takes (correct me if I am wrong)

3 days of 8 or (5) hour sessions on one mark then the calculation before it is released by the NGS.

And then there is that accuracy statement .............within a set of standards.

The + or - = X X=number of feet or seconds.

 

It all boils down to who controls the data set,and the final long and lats and especially the Elevations.

 

Not who set it there.

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There are thousands of such marks - USGS, BLM, Dept of Interior, states, municipalities, utilities, etc etc etc - that are not in the system.

 

Are there other on-line data bases besides the NGS one that we can check for descriptions of these marks?

 

I have found (in a month) in Iowa 2 "US Coast & Geodetic Survey and State Survey" markers and one "US Dept of Interior Geological Survey" disk that aren't in the NGS data base.

 

The latter one is beside a surveyor's orange stake with an elevation to 0.001 foot written on it. The elevation is not stamped on the disk and nothing else around seems to have elevation numbers. Where did he get the data?

 

It would seem to this newcomer that Groundspeak would be doing the world a favor if they provided a place for people to report these. They could use the same mechanism as for new geocaches, with a moderator approving the initial submittal as being a "reasonable" entry.

 

If one of these marks were reported in good condition and with good satellite visibility, then maybe it would be more likely to get adopted into the NGS data base. I can see that they can't put the effort into checking thousands of other agency benchmarks to find a few good ones but with pre-screening like that maybe some could get used.

 

BH

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Bill93 -

 

You have an intereesting idea about rating the satellite quality of non-NGS-database disks.

 

It would be nice if gc.com provided a place to log these. From time to time they say they are considering it.

 

There have been numerous threads on this topic. To see some, put "in the database" in the search window after clicking on "Search" at the top of a benchmark forum page. Be sure to click on the "Older" radio button in the "Search posts from..." area of the search form.

 

Here is one of them.

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If one of these marks were reported in good condition and with good satellite visibility, then maybe it would be more likely to get adopted into the NGS data base. I can see that they can't put the effort into checking thousands of other agency benchmarks to find a few good ones but with pre-screening like that maybe some could get used.

 

my opinion

 

Not ever going to happen, unless you can get congress to spend a couple of million dollars to pay of this. Everything cost $$, computers are not free, nor is bandwidth, not to mention some govt employees would have to spend valuable time on such a project. I doubt anyone in a management position would want to commit funds and manpower to such a project.

 

This could turn into a monumental task at best and not likely to attract enough participation to prove worthwhile. NGS is no likely to accept marks for inclusion into the database in which they do not have the survey notes for perusal. Who is to determine the position and who is to say the position provided by amateurs is correct? Data provided in the NGS db has undergone intense scrutiny as to positional quality and to include any marks of unchecked quality would or could lead to the dissemination of incorrect data and information that could cause more harm than good. The agency's who set the marks are the ones who have to do this and they have given up because of the time and cost involved in this time a project. For instance, it could take USGS years to include all their marks into Bluebook format so they could be loaded into a database. I am sure many of you will recall the old type computer entry forms that had to be filled out for data entry personal to be able to enter the data? Can you imagine looking through countless file cabinets for records, trying to decipher hand written field notes after 50-100 + years, realizing that a great many may not even exist anymore?

Edited by elcamino
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I'm guessing that the one I found today is not in the database because it looked so new. It was near the AT in Pennsylvania. Its coords are 40* 56.542/ 075* 09.969 and the closest one in the database is .5 miles away. I'm not sure how to post the picture I took of it.

Edited by unimoggers
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Geodetic research has always sought ways to do things better, often by using the latest technology.

 

Many Bench Marks were set as disc locations and used as stations to Triangulate the shape of the Geoid, against other disc locations and tall structures of the day. The Latitude Longitude Grid, The Coastlines. and other geographical features of the land were measured using these Bench Marks. Early on this was done with tall wooden towers erected over the Bench Marks and later on, beginning in the late 1920's lighter, more portable Bilby Towers so as to get above the terrain and to see as far as would be needed to do those triangulations. (these towers are why there once were 10 lb plumb bobs. It took a heavy bob to be stable over a Bench Mark During an instrument set up when it was suspended from 60-120 feet of rope.) Heavy but accurate Theolodites were packed up the towers to make these measurements. Much of this work was done at night with Kerosene lamps and later battery operated lights so as to avoid distortion from Heat haze. Later in the late 1960's and the 70's it became Lazer technology. (this is where the term "height of the light" originated yet we still use the term in the field as another way of declaring the H.I or Height of Instrument) (The H.I. is needed to be known to make the computations, and removed from the equation to give the reading for ground level. Recording the HI allowed others to replicate, or check the math) The Math, early on was calculated by hand. Yup, Logarithmic, Triginometric, and Geometric Calculations. Pencil and paper, all day every day. Several computations were completed per day on a good day! later there were Crude Computers in the 50's and 60's later Calculators (Hewlett Packard anyone?) to help with the math and finally PC's and larger computers. Then GPS came along with a complete network in the late 80's and the technology to utilize it got better and better. Today most work on the Geoid is done with these stations: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/ The cors station. Continuously Operating Reference Stations. Real time GPS at it's finest.

 

Back in 2000 President Clinton signed a bill that removed "selective availability" from the GPS system, and that is why our GPS is as accurate as it is today. With the thousands of Bench Marks in existance, or not, that are in the Database with PID's it helps the NGS out a lot to have peole verify what is still there or not and how to find them may have changed. That is why they like having geocachers find them. The cost of doing it from the goverment end would be outrageous, and though these many benchmarks already did what they were needed to to for the NGS in their day, they are still useful to many agencies for many reasons. It is very beneficial to the public to have them and know where they are.

 

Imagine you are a local surveyor and you need to establish TBM's (temporary benchmarks) and you know where you will need to do this. If you check the NGS database for the nearest benchmarks and find 3 nearby but one was recently recovered and re described by say, a geocacher, you can bet that is the best bet to use because it is the most recently found and described. It may even have a photo that help locate it. It saves time and effort, then all you have to do is set up over the mark, you know the elevation off the datasheet and begin to traverse into where the TBM needs set.

 

As for other agency Marks, well those belong to those agencies and were set for reasons that were not part of the Coast & Geodetic Survey's mission. The USGS has different Missions than the NOAA/NGS and that is why the databases aren't and should not be intermingled.

 

Hopefully this helps explain why there were so many Bench Marks in the first place, Why some are not in the Database at NGS, which Geocaching uses, Why fewer are used today, and how useful the ones that still exist still can be.

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To answer Geotrailblazer, the reason why the NOAA/NGS would want us to send in Pics and Coordinates for found marks is simple.

 

These Marks are still valuable for many reasons, and many agencies continue to use them, even though they are not currently used for monitoring the Geoid. Certainly the NOAA likes having the help without having to budget for it. The price is right for them. They probably are not accustomed to many volunteers in thier agency. Yet it is good volunteer work, that is not like the usual volunteer work. It is good that it is being done. Armed with a recent handheld GPS position Fix In NAD 83 Datum, you can get anyone with a GPS similarly set within 15-30 feet of the found Benchmark. Simply Load the coordinates, Set a GO TO and it is a no brainer. A Picture proves the Mark is real, and found. Not claimed found but rather, Really Found! The adages of Seeing is Believing and A picture's worth a thousand words, both apply. The want a Pic of the mark and a Pic of the surrounding area. Armed with that, Almost anyone could find it. Could save a lot of people at work a lot of time searching for something that could be easily found with updated info.

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OK, I seem to understand why there are many BMs that aren't in the GC database.

So what should I do when I find one that is not listed? :blink:

 

I found one at or near N37 20.365 W108 24.740 while lookinf for GCGKX0.

 

See Topo

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=12&n=413...u=1&layer=DRG25

 

Also found a BM at about N38 34.8 W 107 42.9 - Sorry didn't have GPS with me when I took the picture.

 

I find it interesting that both these BM can be found on Topozone maps

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13&n=427...d83&layer=DRG25

 

I can provide a picture if anyone cares.

rwmarble@yahoo

Edited by tireman
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A Picture proves the Mark is real, and found. Not claimed found but rather, Really Found! The adages of Seeing is Believing and  A picture's worth a thousand words, both apply.

Well, yes and no. Today I went looking for HV2358, a chiseled square on a bridge. And, indeed, I found a chiseled square on a bridge. Case closed? Not exactly. The mark was set sometime before 1957, but the bridge had been replaced in 1973. Benchmark on bridge, yes, but not the one in our database. (There was even a second benchmark on another part of the bridge, a standard disk, but of course that wasn't in the database either.)

 

Having said that, and as an amateur, it would certainly seem to me that our reports, particularly to the NGS itself, would be useful to those who need to use these stations for the purpose for which they are intended. If I'm a land surveyor, I may not be as impressed by a recovery reported by an amateur volunteer as one filed by a government agency or professional surveyor, and certainly we do make well-intentioned mistakes, but on balance I would certainly believe our reports have value. And that's especially true when they have photographs or otherwise update the description. Even adding something as minor as a street address adjacent to a mark might shave a few minutes off the surveyor's job.

 

By the way, here's a picture of the first Bilby tower being erected in Minnesota in 1927.

 

~ArtMan

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Tireman,

 

Here's the lowdown. The only Database that geocaching.com is using for Bench Marks is from the NOAA/NGS, and it is not the most current copy. In addition, If geocaching.com has ever updated the NGS database, I do not know. It is certain that there are a large number of survey controls out there in the environment that will not be found in the gc database and likely never will.

 

For instance, there is the U.S. Public Land Survey System, which is otherwise known as the Township and Range System. it uses Meridians and Base lines. Most large cities have established their own contol for engineering and Platting. Most counties have their own control as do the public utilities. Most State Departments of Transportation have all their own control. Each branch of the Military has it's own control for it's own civil work as well as for going to war anywhere in the world. I could go on, but when you parse it down to small stuff, a Private Surveyor/ Enginering firm establishes unique control for housing platts and for the building of Skyscrapers. So there is a lot of stuff out there in the environment we could find.

 

In the case of going to Topozone and finding BM in a contour map. It is likely you can go recover these BM's but the were also likely set By the Provider of the Maps to Topozone and that agency is the USGS. This is what the USGS has to say about its Bench Mark Database:

 

http://interactive2.usgs.gov/faq/list_faq_...swer.asp?id=323

 

USGS Frequently Asked Questions

 

Question: How can I find survey benchmark information?

 

Answer:

 

USGS survey benchmark data is not yet available on the Internet.

 

For vertical and horizontal control information on all USGS survey benchmarks in the eastern U.S., contact the USGS in Rolla, Missouri, by telephone at 573-308-3500.

 

For control information on all USGS benchmarks in the western U.S., contact the USGS in Denver, Colorado, by telephone at 303-202-4400.

 

MOST survey benchmarks were NOT established by the USGS, but the National Coast and Geodetic Survey, Silver Spring, Maryland. National Geodetic Survey benchmark data is available on the Web at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov ["Data sheets"]. For further assistance, call 301-713-3242 or send e-mail to infocenter@ngs.noaa.gov

 

Source of this FAQ:

http://www.usgs.gov/library/faq.html

 

If you like, Recover them and save them in a folder or a Database of your own until such a time USGS makes their data available. You will be far ahead of many.

 

Of Note However. the USGS has down through the years had a habit of stamping elevations on some of their Bench Marks. I cannot stress this strongly enough. This Data is in error, do not use it, ever. Many of these Marks were Minted Prior to 1986 and set to NAD 27, a Datum that is no longer used. The elevations were also pinned to NGVD 29 for elevation purposes as well and that too has been superceded. That stamping cannot be adjusted in the field. NOAA/NGS Bench Marks do not suffer this as they never had a value "physically assigned", and though many have been placed prior to the use of the current Datum's in use, the Database can be updated and adjusted. All the best and latest information is on the Datasheets. The reason I point this out is that just yesterday, I recovered a station whose Datasheet indicated a Four foot change in elevation simply from being adjusted by an updated Datum. And what's worse is that the amount of error changes from location to location. There is no one formula that corrects this. It depends on where you are located. The NOAA/NGS Data is the most accurate database for terrestrial control there is, It is the one you are out searching for on geocaching.com

 

In any case, maybe we will be able to hunt for Marks in other Databases some day. For now, I would collect them anyway, you never know.

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ArtMan,

 

You made a great point with the Yes and No, and Geocachers reports do have value. As much as anybodies. But let me bring a Surveyors Perspective.

 

I am aware that Geocachers find Benchmarks and I do look here as an aid to finding them if I need. You Bet!

 

On the point of taking photos, Your picture can also show that the mark is "Really Not Found" but here is what is in it's stead, lost, or why it was not recovered. Local Knowledge is also super helpful. I went to the NGS site and ran the PID for the chiseled square you shared with us. This is a very cool for instance and I will get to why. Picking what you descibed to us apart, (as this is what surveyors do to descriptions) You tell of the bridge being replaced in 1973. Ok I can assume either you are a Local and know this or you have been to the bridge and saw the 1973 formed into the concrete on the Bridge. The latest recovery for this mark does not state this. As a Surveyor, Sitting in my office preparing to survey near that bridge and looking for control I can use, I will be impressed to know, no matter who reports this that in their report they file that this bridge has been reconstructed in 1973. This staion has been lost and cannot be found. and reported as not recovered. Of further use to a Surveyor would be that there is some other Bench Mark installed in a different location of the bridge. I would report where on the bridge it is located and what it does say and that it does not seem to be in the NGS database with an assigned PID so it will not be confused as NGS Control of any kind. A Local Surveyor may know where to obtain Information on that mark instead. They would also not want to use it by mistake without accurate control. It happens.

 

We could agree that it is destroyed, However the NGS will not allow anyone to file a destroyed Bench Mark report without meeting strict criteria, and you need the actual Bench Mark in order to do that. And so does the NGS. Since we never will have it and neither will anyone else, this station is lost, and not recovered with a reason why it was not recovered.

 

In recovering all this info, Before I submitted it officially via the website recovery form, I would email Deb Brown at the NGS with submitted photos of the A the location where the mark was described to be and is not as well as all other good photo information proving your point. B, the Date of reconstruction on the bridge with Photo of this as well. C, The descriptions and location of other Marks on the bridge that have no PID and that you attempted to verify this. D, who those Marks may belong to if you can tell and E, State the obvious, that the station is Lost, Probably Destroyed and you would like her advice as to how she would prefer to have this station officially documented. Part of her job is to help make these judgement calls. She may even make the determination that the mark truly is "Destroyed". Just remember, there is no need to email NGS if the Bench Mark is a no brainer Not recovered. Just record the best, most accurate info you can. It is easy to do it by just trying to describe the Recovery or Non Recovery in a similar way that others in the NGS have. Try to emulate their manner. Be as brief yet descriptive as possible.

 

As a for instance, If you were to go to recover a Bench Mark that you found the two reference marks for... as it had them, and they both pointed directly to an UGLY bramble of Blackberry bushes. I mean truckloads of thorny debris and hours of clearing to find this Bench Mark, as you have determined from the Description and your measurements that it is way back in there, You can report this to the NGS. Report that you found RM 1 and RM 2 Good as described and that the BM is located approximately 17 feet from the edge, inside a Blackberry Bramble from RM 1, 23 feet from the edge, inside a Blackberry Bramble, The station is likely undisturbed and was not recovered. If you report this you verify that the RM's are good and point to a tough mark to recover, that you didn't recover. I mean it is sometimes reported in the database that a Benchmark once placed on unused land is now under someone's Yard in private property and permission is not granted by the home owner to hunt for and recover it. So why not report a blackberry bramble? If that is what is true in 2004, then it is. It is the latest attempt for recovery, the current state of the area and a really good reason for not finding it.

 

(I can tell you many stories of hacking Blackberries to find nothing, and or place something. It is rarely ever a joy. NOT Pleasant! The best time is in the summer when they are ripe. (for obvious reasons) I can tell you, I will never Volunteer to recover anything inside a blackberry bush. If you pay me and send me in there, then that is another story.)

 

Having the information you know will impress surveyors so much that they will not waste any time looking for this mark or possibly being fooled by the marks that are chiseled into the new bridge. The marks on the new bridge are not HV2358 and some people could miss that and mistakenly use what is there. I would be impressed to not waste the time. It will shave more than minutes off a job more often than not, if they are using NGS control for help.

 

As for the street address idea, That is very helpful. It can get someone near a Bench Mark with Map Blast. Street addresses seem to remain much more stable to locate in a future tense than particular Trees, Telephone poles, wood based structures, and other forms of landscaping. It fact the landscape is hiding tons of these things. And what will the landscape look like in 30 more years? You can change every single thing about a house and yard but it will likely keep the same address. The CenterLine of Road, Center of Man Hole Covers, Corners of Storm Drain Grates, Top Bolts of Fire Hydrants, Back of Curb, Back of sidewalk, and other permanant utilities are likely much more stable to use as well. Feel free to describe where you measured from, the Compass Heading, as well as the distance to the Bench Mark and Feel free to measure to the Bench Mark from at least two different things you find that you think will be permanant points you feel others can easily locate. Also, set your GPS directly ON the Benchmark itself as well as any Reference Mark and Azimuth Mark Discs and record the NAD 83 Coordinates AND the level of Accuracy you had at the time of recovery. By rights, Anyone should be able to about walk up on it with a consumer grade GPS at that point.

 

When it comes to Volunteers doing this recovery work, don't sell yourself short. Licensed Surveyors and those who work in that field are not paid to recover these Marks. They do so as a courtesy to NGS to help maintain the integrity of the NGS control. So they and others can continue to use it. Only the NGS is paid to recover when they recover. And they recover as a matter of the course of performing their Mission. The USPSQD is a fully volunteer organization, no better than a Geochacher, In fact their main claim to fame is teaching boating safety. They Report NGS Bench Marks as an "aid to navigation". The Geocacher has a reporting Agency Mark with the NGS too. It is GEOCAC. In fact, I love recovering stations USPSQD and others report as not found. Here is a throwdown, when you see that a mark is not recovered, go try anyway. I have even found some that the NGS didn't find and reported lost, but that is not easy as they will make a very good attempt to locate their marks. Bottom line, The history is cool and it is challenging fun! Thanks for raising a great point!

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evenfall,

Thanks for the great explanation from a professional's point of view. We probably should bookmark your message so when the question comes up again in the future, we could point back to here.

 

Yes, the question will come up again since we seem to be picking up more people interested in benchmark hunting daily. Unfortunately, I didn't discover this section until spring of 2003, about the time Dave Doyle stopped visiting this section almost daily and had many good answers and inputs for us "amateurs".

 

Your message gave me new insight about reporting unlisted marks nearby where one used to be. I never thought of it that way that the information can still be useful even if the listed mark is NOT FOUND. I'm also happy to hear that a professional actually does use data from the GC database.

 

You could inform other professional surveyors through a professional magazine article or letter to the editor that there is a wealth of information and pictures associated with the GC database. Most people who find benchmarks will not report the find, or NOT FOUND, to NGS, which in a different respect makes the GC database more up-to-date.

 

That's the thoughts of a old time topographer.

 

Ted

Edited by Colorado Papa
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Evenfall,

I second what Colorado Papa said--thanks for the insight into how benchmarks are used and what information if of value.

I always wondered why some of the older descriptions don't mention addresses, or even road names--I know road names change sometimes but it happens so rarely that the name would certainly be more helpful than "County Rd 41003", which from my standpoint has never appeared on a sign of any sort.

I have submitted addresses when they exist, as well as road names, and have also submitted descriptions of why a mark is not found. This gives anyone following me more information about why I couldn't find it and lets them decide if they want to pursue the mark.

What I need to start doing is getting the coords and adding them to the submission. I only recently got a GPSr so I can do that now.

 

Matt

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I would also suggest reporting the sky visibility for satellite measurements, relative to the NGS standard which I think is "clear from 15 degrees above the horizon in all directions, except for a few isolated small obstructions".

 

To report to the NGS using the on-line form, you have to check "Yes" or "No" about this so it is a good idea to have the info in the Groundspeak entry also. I tend to err on the "favorable" side when selecting Yes/No but may mention "marginal visibility to the south" in the comments if I'm unsure. Better to have the pros drive by and say "I don't like that site" than to make a possible candidate fall off their list.

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I know road names change sometimes but it happens so rarely that the name would certainly be more helpful than "County Rd 41003", which from my standpoint has never appeared on a sign of any sort.

In Virginia, certainly, and I suspect in quite a few others states, county road numbers - every obscure rural roads - do show up on road signs. In addition, official county road maps, likely to be back in the truck here somewhere, will certainly have those road numbers. In a mark I recovered recently (JV3001), a NGS recovery report mentioned a county road number, even though it was unmarked. In my report I referred to the road number, but also mentioned that it wasn't marked at this location.

 

That same PID illustrates another point on road names and numbers. The 1942 description noted the mark's location "along U.S. Highway 15." The road in question is now a dead-end road that is barely two lanes wide. A realigned Route 15 runs in parallel nearby. The 1995 recovery report gave the current name of the road, but failed to note that it is the former Route 15. Seems to me that since numbered highways often also have names, it is useful to note that the name is not an alternative but rather a replacement for the numbered road.

 

~ArtMan

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Artman,

Odd that you should mention Rt 15, because I looked for a mark in the Harrisburg area along a realigned Rt 15 (and failed to find it). There had not been a recovery since the realignment however so I was the first to "not find" the mark--by my calculations it would (and could still be) on the shoulder of the NEW Rt 15.

 

Matt

 

P.S. county and state roads in PA are sometimes marked with their number on mile-marker style signs along the side of the road, so it isn't impossible to find the road, just sometimes a bit harder than I think it should be.

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Here's a benchmark in the NGS database but not in GC. Found it today and took a picture. It's a bit frustrating not to be able to log this find.

 

Simplest way to meet needs of Geocache hobbyists might be to allow manual entry of benchmarks only if the mark is in the NGS database. Given how easy the NGS site is to use when you have a PID, it should be simpleish to write a script to validate and even pull back data related to valid PIDs that are entered. Leave it to me - the person logging the find - to do the data entry for the BM into the GC database. One by one, we'd get the interesting NGS BMs into the GC database.

 

The GC database would grow to accomodate new NGS BMs exactly as fast as us hobbyists are willing to enter them.

 

KV6829 DESIGNATION - 7 B 1

KV6829 PID - KV6829

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This past Monday, while on our honeymoon, Nurse Dave and I found this mark near Fisherman's Wharf (San Francisco). We took pictures of it hoping to log it when we got home by searching for the nearest marks to the coordinates. Unfortunately it's not in the database. There are two marks within .1 of the coords but they are not this one, as evidenced by the pictures cachers took of them.

 

I see I am not the only one who has had this happen! Still interesting, though!

 

IMG_0992.jpg

 

As you can see, this mark was placed by the Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Department of the Interior. The mark number is illegible which is why we were going to search by coords.

Edited by beckerbuns
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