It's Not About The Numbers.

1.6k · August 10, 2004

Okay so I had my first TB in a travel bug hotel. I recieved two emails one day telling me this cacher had taken out the travel bug and then put it back in. I looked at the cache page and noticed he mentioned nothing about my TB but he had taken out another. I immediately emailed him asking why he had done this. Two weeks later he returned my email and said that he did this for another TB added to his details. What do you think of this? Have you had it happen to you?

1.6k · August 10, 2004

Here is what the TB log says: Found and returned to the same cache.

This is what the cache page said: Picked up Rescued Frog TB-that isn't my TB.

August 10, 2004

While I'm sure that there are as many different ways to look at this as there are to play this game, the way I'd try to look at is that by this cacher "grabbing" and replacing your bug within the same cache at least you've gotten validation that yes, your bug is still safely sitting there waiting to be moved. Personally, I wouldn't log a bug without moving it to another cache, but to each their own.

3.1k · August 10, 2004

hmmm, big deal?

2.1k · August 10, 2004

There are services on the internet that for a modest fee can track down a person's address, phone number, date of birth, wife's maiden name, and usual work schedule.

With that information, you have a number of possibilities for revenge ranging from murder to simply slashing their tires every day to make them late for work. As you stalk your prey, you will come to learn that they put their pants on one leg at a time and even have a child that enjoys playing the game as well. In a reverse Stockholm Syndrome, you will grow to love your inevitable victim and realize that they aren't too different from you and just had fun seeing all the TBs in the hotel that likely told them that they couldn't take them all and help them along.

With this new found revelation of love in your heart for your fellow man, you will come out of the shadows across the street one night while he makes his weekly trip with the garbage cans to the curb and explain the whole situation to him and how you've come to watch his family and realize your own misgivings.

You will then be arrested, you sick bastard.

See, I think it's just best to be happy that someone found your TB and you know that it is still safe and sound as of their last find on it.

1.6k · August 10, 2004

There are services on the internet that for a modest fee can track down a person's address, phone number, date of birth, wife's maiden name, and usual work schedule.

With that information, you have a number of possibilities for revenge ranging from murder to simply slashing their tires every day to make them late for work. As you stalk your prey, you will come to learn that they put their pants on one leg at a time and even have a child that enjoys playing the game as well. In a reverse Stockholm Syndrome, you will grow to love your inevitable victim and realize that they aren't too different from you and just had fun seeing all the TBs in the hotel that likely told them that they couldn't take them all and help them along.

With this new found revelation of love in your heart for your fellow man, you will come out of the shadows across the street one night while he makes his weekly trip with the garbage cans to the curb and explain the whole situation to him and how you've come to watch his family and realize your own misgivings.

You will then be arrested, you sick bastard.

See, I think it's just best to be happy that someone found your TB and you know that it is still safe and sound as of their last find on it.

:lol: :lol:

5.7k · August 10, 2004

I like to keep track of every travelbug I see. Sometimes, I am unable to move a travelbug towards its goal, but I do want a record of having seen it. The easiest way to do this right now is to pick up the bug and drop it back in the cache. Lots and lots of people do this same thing. It's no big deal. Certainly nothing to be concerned with.

As the bug owner, it is certainly within your right to remove such logs from your bug, but you won't win any friends that way. Basically, if someone is enjoying playing this game, let them. It's not really hurting anyone.

--Marky

August 10, 2004

I was watching a TB once that I had found and was curious of its travels. I noticed a cacher with high stats had taken the TB to several caches and "placed and retrieved it" many times. :rolleyes: How do you claim the same bug on several caches when it never left your posession? I think Geocaching has been around long enough to establish rules. I have had the opportunity to log TB's that I saw but didn't take to move and I have had TB's that were with me on caches that I felt were not the right cache for that TB and did not log that as a placement. I'm not sure how that is OK. I dont think I could justify it in my own mind. Well I dont cheat at solitaire either. I think some guide lines should be established concerning cache logs.

August 10, 2004

I like to keep track of every travelbug I see. Sometimes, I am unable to move a travelbug towards its goal, but I do want a record of having seen it.

--Marky

Seeing a TB and retrieving it are two diffrent things. Why not take it to another cache? Even though it dosen't seem to be in the direction of the TB's goal it may be an opportunity for another cacher to see that it moves on.

6.7k · August 10, 2004

I was watching a TB once that I had found and was curious of its travels. I noticed a cacher with high stats had taken the TB to several caches and "placed and retrieved it" many times. How do you claim the same bug on several caches when it never left your posession? I think Geocaching has been around long enough to establish rules.

I have done this as well as ask finders to do the same for one of my bugs. If I have a bug that wants to travel, no real goal in mind, I may check it in and out of several caches along my travels so it can report to the owner interesting places it has been.

OTOH, I have bugs out there with missions that I want to see keep moving - if they're moving from cache to cache in the possession of the same cacher as oppossed to moving from one cacher to another is irrelevant - it's moving, collecting logs and fun to watch.

I try to never hold TBs more than two weeks, but I might on occasion check one into and back out of caches during that time. I picked up a bug once that wanted to visit every state; I was driving to Az from Al, so I checked it into and back out of a cache in each state along the way.

Ed

2k · August 10, 2004

What do you think of this?

Don't care

Have you had it happen to you?

No

ju66l3r,

WTF :rolleyes:

I was not even going to reply to this post, but then I thought why not.

It did ad one to my post count...

5.3k · August 10, 2004

I have a bigger problem people who pick up and collect bugs and do not put them into caches, there is a cacher in my area that is doing that, I have sent an e-mail regarding the plans they have for one of mine have not gotten a responce.

3.9k · August 10, 2004

Can someone have a look at the two logs from 8/10/2004 on this TB and tell me if it's "ethical" (whatever that means) to log a TB find and then immediately drop it off back in the same cache ? In effect they have scored a cache find and a TB find for no extra effort. Seems a little "cheap".

I regularly come across TBs that I don't want to take, for whatever reason, but I wouldn't dream (so far) of logging it straight back in the same cache.

Edited August 10, 2004 by sTeamTraen

5.7k · August 10, 2004

I like to keep track of every travelbug I see. Sometimes, I am unable to move a travelbug towards its goal, but I do want a record of having seen it.

--Marky

Seeing a TB and retrieving it are two diffrent things. Why not take it to another cache? Even though it dosen't seem to be in the direction of the TB's goal it may be an opportunity for another cacher to see that it moves on.

Sometimes, I am unable to move a travelbug towards its goal

I don't move it, because I don't want to move it away from its goal.

I don't see how my wanting to keep track of bugs i've seen affects you in any way, shape or form. Why not just let me play the game the way I want to, and you can play the game the way you want to.

Personally, if I have a bug that has specific goals, I'd rather someone pick up and drop it than move it away from its goal.

--Marky

1.1k · August 10, 2004

What do you think of this? Have you had it happen to you?

For some people it is about the numbers and by logging every travel bug they see in a cache regardless if they move it or not it ups their travel bug count by one. Personally I wouldn't do this but don't have any real problem with those who do this sort of thing. I have not had it happen to any of the travel bugs that own, yet, anyway.

Zack

21.9k · August 10, 2004

I merged two similar topics together, and I'm moving them both over to the Travel Bug forum.

3.9k · August 10, 2004

On a related subject: the owner of this cache dropped off a TB (see "all logs on one page") with a "Found It" log. I might have mentioned it to him/her, but I needed help with finding the cache (the coords turned out to be slightly off), so didn't want to get off on the wrong foot :rolleyes:

1.6k · August 10, 2004

Sounds like a variation on the old "counting coup" problem that we had at some geocaching meetings. Everyone counts as a find every single travel bug that is brought to the meeting. You get comments like "I held it" or "Someone passed it to me and I passed it on to so and so".

Lame and annoying, but what can you do. Some people can read the FAQs and the "how to" pages and still screw it up.

August 10, 2004

I like to keep track of every travelbug I see. Sometimes, I am unable to move a travelbug towards its goal, but I do want a record of having seen it.

--Marky

Seeing a TB and retrieving it are two diffrent things. Why not take it to another cache? Even though it dosen't seem to be in the direction of the TB's goal it may be an opportunity for another cacher to see that it moves on.

Sometimes, I am unable to move a travelbug towards its goal

I don't move it, because I don't want to move it away from its goal.

I don't see how my wanting to keep track of bugs i've seen affects you in any way, shape or form. Why not just let me play the game the way I want to, and you can play the game the way you want to.

Personally, if I have a bug that has specific goals, I'd rather someone pick up and drop it than move it away from its goal.

--Marky

Well no offense meant, but every game has "rules" If not, then anyone would make up whatever they wanted. What would you think if I stopped at the same cache and logged it several times so I could up my stats? Or I had my sister log a cache for me because I knew where it was? Like it or not geocaching is an official game with an official Web site that keeps track of the stats as well as regulates where a cache can be placed. There are rules to the game and I think people who have to make themselves look good with a higher number will find loopholes to up those. Why do you have a problem if we all played by the same set of rules? Just because "others do it" dosen't make it right or fair. You can do whatever you want but we as a society have rules, written and unwritten. What would be wrong with some rules or guidelines?

Edited August 10, 2004 by Phone guy

August 10, 2004

There are services on the internet that for a modest fee can track down a person's address, phone number, date of birth, wife's maiden name, and usual work schedule.

With that information, you have a number of possibilities for revenge ranging from murder to simply slashing their tires every day to make them late for work. As you stalk your prey, you will come to learn that they put their pants on one leg at a time and even have a child that enjoys playing the game as well. In a reverse Stockholm Syndrome, you will grow to love your inevitable victim and realize that they aren't too different from you and just had fun seeing all the TBs in the hotel that likely told them that they couldn't take them all and help them along.

With this new found revelation of love in your heart for your fellow man, you will come out of the shadows across the street one night while he makes his weekly trip with the garbage cans to the curb and explain the whole situation to him and how you've come to watch his family and realize your own misgivings.

You will then be arrested, you sick bastard.

See, I think it's just best to be happy that someone found your TB and you know that it is still safe and sound as of their last find on it.

ROTFL :rolleyes: I agree with the basic premise of this post - live and let live (or no harm, no foul) Last time I looked nobody was giving out certificates, ribbons, trophies, medals, big 4' long cardboard checks or anything else to people for having the most TB logs so hey if you don't like it then don't do it. If somebody else enjoys this game/sport/recreational activity by logging/dropping every TB they see in every cache they find then more power to them.

August 10, 2004

Like it or not geocaching is an official game with an official Web site that keeps track of the stats as well as regulates where a cache can be placed. There are rules to the game and I think people who have to make themselves look good with a higher number will find loopholes to up those.

Yeah, the same as tag, hop scotch and dodge ball are "official" games :rolleyes: Care to quote to me the page in the "official" rule book (I think it's Section 37 subheading 192A paragraph 4 ) that says you can't pickup and log a TB back into the same cache? As far as I know the "official" rules (aka the geocaching.com rules) are pretty slim and a lot is left up to individual cacher discretion to play the game as they see fit (not as I see fit or as you see fit). I like my government small and my geocaching "official rules" minimal. Just my 2 cents worth on the subject.

August 10, 2004

As a TB owner I would love to know that my TB was still actually out there and not on the bottom of somebody's backpack who forgot to log it on the website and then it truly goes missing.

For some people it is about the numbers.

You could try to play the game the way you want and not put your expectations on somebody else's play. You can always try to be Informative rather than *Itchy but as in life there are no guarantees, except death and taxes.

Cha-ching, +1 post count ... :rolleyes:

2.1k · August 10, 2004

ju66l3r,

WTF

I read the original post and thought "there's a movie in there somewhere".

August 10, 2004

A guy had my travel bug for a few weeks and was traveling alot...he dropped it and picked it up from every cache he went to to add miles that the bug actuall took....for instance...he flew from sacramento to dallas did a touch and go there and then went to DC. The bug travelled more miles going from sacto to dallas to DC than it wouldve just from sacto to DC....so its actually making the stat real :rolleyes:

2.6k · August 10, 2004

I like my government small and my geocaching "official rules" minimal.

Me, too. But I also reserve the right to stick my tongue out at somebody I think is a lamer.

If you're not doing anything with the bug -- taking its picture, giving it a side-trip, telling a story about how you found it, even moving it just one hop to your next cache -- then you've helped you, but you haven't helped the bug. I suppose if it's been sitting in a cache forever, the owner might like to hear from it...but if that's the case, then it really, really needs to be moved.

There's no law against not getting into the spirit of a game, but it's still lame.

August 10, 2004

Like it or not geocaching is an official game with an official Web site that keeps track of the stats as well as regulates where a cache can be placed. There are rules to the game and I think people who have to make themselves look good with a higher number will find loopholes to up those.

Yeah, the same as tag, hop scotch and dodge ball are "official" games Care to quote to me the page in the "official" rule book (I think it's Section 37 subheading 192A paragraph 4 ) that says you can't pickup and log a TB back into the same cache? As far as I know the "official" rules (aka the geocaching.com rules) are pretty slim and a lot is left up to individual cacher discretion to play the game as they see fit (not as I see fit or as you see fit). I like my government small and my geocaching "official rules" minimal. Just my 2 cents worth on the subject.

Let me ask you a question,

If I decided to log my placed cache about 250 times because I could and not have to worry about the owner deleating my posts would that be ok? Simply because the rules were loose? because it "is left up to individual cacher discretion to play the game as they see fit."

Try to be honest about this. If you have TB in hand but do not intend to place it and allow someone else the chance to retreive it, then its no diffrent than keeping it. Why then would you ever leave it anywhere? Why not keep all TB's you pick up and simply log them as placed and retreived from every cache you ever find. Do you get it yet? Are the numbers so important to you that this is Ok in your mind?

Maybe you but not me.

I agree with the original poster that there are some things being taken advantage of. You do what you want but remember others see your stats and TB movements. Most people agree these things should not be done.

August 10, 2004

Let me ask you a question,

If I decided to log my placed cache about 250 times because I could and not have to worry about the owner deleating my posts would that be ok? Simply because the rules were loose? because it "is left up to individual cacher discretion to play the game as they see fit."

Let me respond...

First of all, you could do such a thing and nothing would probably happen to you - Geocaching.com doesn't have a referee that verifies the validity of each find. That is why GC refrains from elevating the importance of find counts by implementing any sort of leaderboard. It is a slippery slope that they wisely refrain from going near.

In particular, logging a TB in and out of a cache doesn't break any 'rule'. It doesn't move the TB like it 'should', and it does increase the owner's TB find count without them expending any particular effort or contribution, but so what? TB find counts don't 'count' for anything . On top of that, most geocachers don't care. Everyone knows that many (but not all) of the top TB finders use some sort of 'capture and release' strategy to get their numbers up - therefore those numbers - which don't mean anything anyway - are worthless. Should anyone try to use them for bragging rights they would be hooted down, or more likely just ignored.

The rules of Geocaching, such as they are, are 'enforced' by social peer pressure. The GeoCaching hard-core know which of their members play by lax versions of the rules - it's a prime topic of gossip and supposition. High-numbers cachers go to great lengths to keep their noses clean, since not doing so destroys the foundation of their standing with their peers.

Anyone who 'cheats' without this social network around them is in a particularly odd place. Doing so would be like cheating at solitare.

In summary. TB finds don't "count". No harm, no foul.

1.8k · August 10, 2004

I don't see the harm in logging that you've seen it. If you're into TB stats, do whatever you want with it. I don't see how this impacts anybody else.

And just to stir up those obsessive-compulsive TB'ers who think logging something in and out of the same cache is a sin...LINK, LINK, and LINK. :rolleyes:

Edited August 10, 2004 by Team PerkyPerks

3.1k · August 10, 2004

Oh boy. If someone isn't harming you then why do you what that person is doing? There aren't rules about logging bugs and not moving them on is there? So who cares?

Many more things to worry about other than this sort of thing.

Oh and if Johnny wants to log his own cache 5000 times to up his totals I could care less. It doesn't harm me in the least.

3.5k · August 10, 2004

The log in/log out thing: Personally, I think it's kind of annoying. If you're not going to make the travelbug travel then leave it alone. Eh, that's just me...no skin off my nose either way.

Bret

August 10, 2004

Oh boy. If someone isn't harming you then why do you what that person is doing? There aren't rules about logging bugs and not moving them on is there? So who cares?

Many more things to worry about other than this sort of thing.

Oh and if Johnny wants to log his own cache 5000 times to up his totals I could care less. It doesn't harm me in the least.

Please calm down I did not say it bothered me. I just believe that is not the way I would want my TB's to run. I have several tags waiting to deploy. I guess I could ask for one retrieval and placement per cacher. Well as always I am very opinionated and I just need to stir things up once in a while. :rolleyes:

Edited August 10, 2004 by Phone guy

August 11, 2004

If I decided to log my placed cache about 250 times because I could and not have to worry about the owner deleating my posts would that be ok? Simply because the rules were loose? because it "is left up to individual cacher discretion to play the game as they see fit."

That would be perefctly fine with me! Why you ask? Because I could care less about how many finds you (or anybody else for that matter) has and whether or not they were "legal" finds or whatever you want to call it. The only thing that matters is how much fun I have doing this. Being anal about it and worrying about if somebody else isn't doing it right takes all the fun out of it.

Do you get it yet?

No the question is DO YOU get it yet?

Are the numbers so important to you that this is Ok in your mind?

When did I ever say that numbers are important to me? Taking a TB and keeping forever it is WRONG is that clear enough for you. On the other hand if I choose to pick up a TB and carry it with me for a month while I log it in and out of ever cache I find (while posting pictures and descriptions of it's journey) then there is nothing morally wrong with that (and it's not "agaist the rules"). Now if the TBs goal specifically stated that it did not want that to happen I would not do it but I think most TB owners would be happy to see the bug logging some mileage instead of sitting in a cache.

Most people agree these things should not be done.

Looking at the posts here it seems to be a toss-up

edited for spelling (my 2 fingers that know how to type don't know how to spell :rolleyes: )

Edited August 11, 2004 by clan_Barron

August 11, 2004

Last time I looked nobody was giving out certificates, ribbons, trophies, medals, big 4' long cardboard checks or anything else to people for having the most TB logs so hey if you don't like it then don't do it.

Huh? Wait a minute! The only reason I joined this game was because someone told me there was a prize involved. Are you trying to tell me that there isn't a mini-van chock full o' party balloons and a guy with an FM-radio voice telling me that I've won "big"? :rolleyes:

Edited August 11, 2004 by wilsonjw

2.1k · August 11, 2004

Most people agree these things should not be done.

I don't think you're qualified to speak for most people.

8.4k · August 11, 2004

SHEESH!

It's threads like this that are the reason I call this "the whining and unrealistic expectation forum."

Let go LUKE! Your TB has a life of it's own. Kiss it goodbye and hope for the best. Odds are you're never gonna see that sucker again. Just how much fun do you expect to squeeze from an old movie ticket stub? (TBs, for the most part, cost less than that. Get it?)

Heck, you probably won't see your own kids for a good long time once they are out from under your thumb if you act the same (controlling) way with them.

If you're experiencing NEGATIVE FEELINGS over a bit of metal and plastic that is comparativly worth less than a movie ticket or say, three gallons of gas, JUST WALK AWAY!!! Why are you doing this to yourself over a freakin' THING.

2.6k · August 11, 2004

It's threads like this that are the reason I call this "the whining and unrealistic expectation forum."

I'm not sure why whining about whining is fundamentally different than the original whining was in the first place.

If we're supposed to be all que sera sera about how people play the game, shouldn't that include hands off people who like to grumble about how others are playing it? The thread starter isn't asking for more rules. He's bummed because his very first TB was picked up for the very first time by somebody who didn't do anything interesting. Eh. I feel his pain.

If you open up a forum for people to talk about something — anything — one of the things they're going to do a lot of is complain. Is it realistic to expect anything else?

8.8k · August 11, 2004

Basically the question is not about the bug having a boring existence. The question is why are cachers logging bugs they do not move. The reason is because there are no rules, just goals. No one ever said if you don't move a bug, you can't log it (although it seems simple enough). If a cacher does not want people who do not move travel bugs to log them, then the bug page itself should state "If you do not intend to move this bug, please do not log it, your log will be deleted". While it may seem silly to some to log a travel bug you do not move, it can at times be helpful to a bug owner to know that their bug is still in place and has not gone missing. It is not something to get worked up about, sending a travel bug out has its risks, but they are minimal, unless you are sending out your broken engagement ring or something of value like that. So Anonymous', on your bug page you can do as you wish. As long as cachers are told ahead of time that their logs won't count if they don't move it. It wouldn't be fair to those that enjoy keeping track of how many bugs they've seen to delete thier logs without prior notification on the page itself.

Edited August 11, 2004 by Eartha

1.6k · August 11, 2004

Basically the question is not about the bug having a boring existence. The question is why are cachers logging bugs they do not move. The reason is because there are no rules, just goals. No one ever said if you don't move a bug, you can't log it (although it seems simple enough). If a cacher does not want people who do not move travel bugs to log them, then the bug page itself should state "If you do not intend to move this bug, please do not log it, your log will be deleted". While it may seem silly to some to log a travel bug you do not move, it can at times be helpful to a bug owner to know that their bug is still in place and has not gone missing. It is not something to get worked up about, sending a travel bug out has its risks, but they are minimal, unless you are sending out your broken engagement ring or something of value like that. So Anonymous', on your bug page you can do as you wish. As long as cachers are told ahead of time that their logs won't count if they don't move it. It wouldn't be fair to those that enjoy keeping track of how many bugs they've seen to delete thier logs without prior notification on the page itself.

I had no worries about the TB being missing because it had only been in the cache a few days.

22k · August 11, 2004

Usually it's the trade items I take out and put right back in.

What do I think about it? I don't log a bug unless I move it. I wouldn't make that a requirement for anyone else because the grab and drop action doesn't adversely affect the game or the bug.

Edited August 11, 2004 by Elf Danach

August 11, 2004

Most people agree these things should not be done.

I don't think you're qualified to speak for most people.

You wanna bet?

1.8k · August 11, 2004

Most people agree these things should not be done.

I don't think you're qualified to speak for most people.

You wanna bet?

Well you sure as heck aren't speaking for me...

August 11, 2004

Ease up a bit. This is a game. Dont take things so serious. You all can do what you want. I will ignore you now.

August 11, 2004

Ease up a bit. This is a game. Dont take things so serious.

Hey, you do get it

8.4k · August 11, 2004

It's threads like this that are the reason I call this "the whining and unrealistic expectation forum."

I'm not sure why whining about whining is fundamentally different than the original whining was in the first place.

If we're supposed to be all que sera sera about how people play the game, shouldn't that include hands off people who like to grumble about how others are playing it? The thread starter isn't asking for more rules. He's bummed because his very first TB was picked up for the very first time by somebody who didn't do anything interesting. Eh. I feel his pain.

If you open up a forum for people to talk about something — anything — one of the things they're going to do a lot of is complain. Is it realistic to expect anything else?

Touché and well spoken. You are quite right. (for the most part)

I have been in a bit of a mood haven't I? I shall vow to endeavor to persevere.

I'm pretty sure I'll go off about this issue again sometime, but I will try to remember your wisdom.

2.6k · August 11, 2004

Touché and well spoken. You are quite right. (for the most part)

Awwww...now you've gone and ruined my fun. Dang! A weasel can't buy an argument in this place.

I shall have to saunter over to rec.arts.startrek and blurt "Picard kicks Kirk's butt!" or something...

2.1k · August 11, 2004

Most people agree these things should not be done.

I don't think you're qualified to speak for most people.

You wanna bet?

Yes, I would. I bet any amount of money on the fact that I currently think you are unqualified to speak for most people.

August 12, 2004

I think people log out and then log right back in TBs so there's something to talk about in the TB forums.

August 12, 2004

Well, the travel bug does want to travel around "picking up stories," as the tag says. If someone grabs it and logs it, that is part of the story.

I think it is silly to just log it back in to the same cache though. I am sure everyone could drop it off at another cache on the way home. Still, I don't see the harm in it, especially if they take some time to write a decent log or take a picture.

8.8k · August 12, 2004

Most people agree these things should not be done.

I don't think you're qualified to speak for most people.

You wanna bet?

Yes, I would. I bet any amount of money on the fact that I currently think you are unqualified to speak for most people.

OTB!!

Off Topic Betting.

Let's keep this on topic, shall we?

It's Not About The Numbers.

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment