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Lots Of Finds But No Hides...


TWA42
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Hi!

 

I'm a relative newcomer to the sport...just under a hundred finds so far, but I'd like a consensus on something that rattles me. I see in the log-ins that we have cachers with literally hundreds of finds (one over 300) and not one cache of their own! That smacks to me of sucking the sport dry but not giving back. I know this is America and nothing says you have to place a hide, but simple courtesy and the desire to see this sport stay healthy dictates that we should all contribute to the game.

 

These high-number individuals have no qualms about sometimes trashing a particular hide yet deny their peers the same right to critique something they hide. How does the caching community feel about this issue? I'm sure it's been discussed before I got involved but like I say, i'm new at this sport...comments anybody?

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There are a lot of ways to give back to the RASH (Recreational Activity Sport Hobby) that don't involve placing a cache. In a target rich area it's no so easy to hide a good cache anymore.

 

Things you can do include being a cache angel and "trading up the cache" or replacing the zip lock bag the log book is in, replacing broken containers etc.

 

or you can work with a local park agency that is working on banning or has banned caches. You can be active in your local organization, sponsor cache events, or be the life of the party at the cache events.

 

You can get the newspaper to write an article on geocaching, or teach a geocaching class at the local community education center.

 

Should someone place a cache? Yes, but there are other options out there.

 

Edit: And some people are parasites and that's all the more they will ever be.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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It's a game. Some people like to hide, some don't.

 

I personally think that those who have little to no hides should not complain about caches....but that isn't likely to happen.

 

Chances are, those who have big find numbers, but few hides, will not give much effort into their hides if they are not interested. I would rather see those who enjoy hiding continue, and anyone who isnt much of a hider enjoy the game their way.

 

But Im just one person with an opinion. I'll spare any of you from having to look up my numbers. 326 finds, and 20 hides (or thereabouts) and more hides planned as soon as the weather cools. Not all of mine are first class, but some have been given high reviews.

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Some people are better than others at hiding. I can say for myself, I do a lot better finding caches rather than hiding. I literally have only one hidden cache to my name. If everybody who plays the sport out there hid caches, there would be a lot more second-rate micros floating around.

 

I say, leave the hiding to the creative minds. Others, like myself, can find other ways of giving back. For example, a few weeks ago I found a cache plundered on the sidewalk. I took it home, repaired it, refilled it with swag, and brought it back.

 

Someday I might reach a level where I can activily plot my next placement. But, until then, I havent the time, the resources, nor the inginuity.

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I can't wait to hide my first cache....thing is though...I want to make sure it's not a lame cache. Not everyone can just place a cache...unfortunately some do...and these caches turn out to be pretty bad. If it takes me a year to come across a place that a) has no other caches in the area and B) has a wow factor (not sure what that is yet...), then so be it...if everyone placed a cache for every cache they found, or for every 50 they found, we would be overloaded with caches that don't mean anything (other than a number for some).

 

And like CO says...some hide....some find...some do both...everyone gets something different out of doing different things in this sport...

 

Edit: smilies were enabled...

Edited by SixTen
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I've been caching since Feb. I have over 60 finds, no hides.

I've considered hiding, but right now if I did it, it would be another parking lot micro in a vast sea of parking lot micros.

If/when I place a cache(s) I want it to be a spot worth seeing. A location that I want to take someone to. A location that would make the finder say TFTC and MEAN it. When I find one of those special spots, I'll work on placing a cache there.

 

I do my part in other ways. I leave decent swag. I helped a neglected cache by taking a new container and some swag. I do not see myself as "sucking the sport dry". We can each give back in our own ways and that doesn't necessarily mean placing a cache.

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Some folks hide under a different name, which lets them rack up some numbers and also lets them cache more anonymously in extremely "clubby" areas where feedback can get nasty.

 

I've seen some prolific hiders that do nothing but film can micros in sucky locations with great numbers and hiders with only a few, but sweet, hides.

 

Do what you're comfortable with. just do it well, please.

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First off, where I live there are about 20 caches in 483,000 square kilometers of land. When I go out to find a cache, it is usually anywhere from a half-day to more than a day to find ONE. I guess what I'm trying to say here is, I probably have a different perspective on the sport than someone who lives in an urban or cache-laden area.

 

That being said, from what I understand, there are tons of caches hidden in some dense areas. If your area is saturated, you probably aren't helping by placing more of them. Personally, I'd rather spend all day finding a cache than to go out and find twenty. Otherwise, it becomes like heroin -- you keep needing more, but the buzz is less each time.

 

So, I agree with what some others have posted -- quality is more important than quantity. Also, if you have like 100 hides, how can you keep them all maintained? I would much rather have someone not hide a cache at all, than to hide one and let it go bad, especially if I've just mashed my way through 10 km of backcountry.

 

One thing I must vehemently disagree with is the idea that people who only find caches are not giving back to the sport. Everyone who participates, as long as they do it right, is helping keep the sport going. If you cache responsibly, treat caches with care and avoid doing stupid things that anger non-cachers, you are giving a LOT back to the sport. Why hide a cache if no one is going to find it?

 

In fact, I can go so far as to say someone who hides a lot of caches, but does a bad job, is DAMAGING the sport. What could be more frustrating for a new cacher to go look for a cache that isn't there or has been ruined? Do you think they'll keep caching?

 

Everyone who participates, in any way, is helping the sport as long as they are doing it RIGHT.

 

Once again, this is only my view. For me, I really enjoy getting out on the land, and learning about navigating and mapping. The find is kind of secondary. I know there are others who do it for different reasons, and I don't want to disparage them in any way. That's why it's a neat sport, it has lots of different appeal for different people.

 

Regards,

Anthony

Edited by Gonzo-YT
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As a person whose only "hide" is a single TB, I put forth this:

 

Let's say a person is only a finder. This person has organized the local geocaching association, advocated for cache placement to local parks owners, donated a large sum of money to GC.com, and always trades up. Are they sucking the sport dry? Should they have the respect of people who think like Lazy&Mite?

 

No, that's not me and I haven't done a single one of those things, but I just wanted to point out that the stat line that defines the number of hides/finds does not define the quality of the person's participation.

 

A second perspective: Imagine 10 caches hidden by 10 different people within 20 miles of each other. Those 10 people could each search out 9 other caches and that's it. Each cache would have 9 logs. That's it. Yet, when you add in the number of finders-only people, the caches will be visited 50-100 times. The point is that the system capacity is far higher than the number of hiders only. Therefore, the finders-only people are not sucking anything dry.

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i am not at all bothered when people find but don't hide. i also don't care if people hide but don't find.

 

i AM bothered when people use the idiot term "muggle" and i am bothered when all people can thin of to log is "TNLNTFTC" i am alos annoyed by people who swear they're going to come back to a place soon and do some no-geocaching activity, and people who like to tell you how many caches they've done today, or to-date. the only person who cacres that this was your fourth out of seventeen today is YOU.

 

but no, i don't care if you don't hide any.

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We have 321 finds (I think) and no hides. I'm waiting for the order from gc.com to come in (UPS says tomorrow) and I'll probably place our first cache when the kids come back from visiting my in-laws.

 

Let's look at forum posts as an analogy. You only have 2. Does that mean you don't help people if they have a question? I mean how much help have you gotten from others yet you only have 2 posts, 1 of which was this thread.

 

I've replaced caches that weren't being maintained, replaced items in a cache and thrown a couple extra items into other caches that needed some more fill. Just cause my name isn't on as the owner doesn't mean there's no contribution.

 

Who knows... maybe after I place the first cache and get the thrill from others finding them I'll go on a frenzy placing caches.

 

In my area, we have some cachers that do a perfect job placing caches. I think more then anything, it has to do with their knowledge of the areas they are placing the caches in. For many of them, they were avid hikers turned geocachers so they know where to place cachers for the maximum "wow" factor. For me, other then I could try and guess from topo maps what might be a good location, I've never been to the places I'd want someone to go to find a cache so they can experience the "wow" I've experienced.

 

So, I hear ya, but I don't think a hide count alone determines one "commitment" to the hobby.

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I really enjoy hiding caches, maybe even more that hunting them. I haven't hidden many, but I like to think of the ones I have as being of good quality.

If there is a local cacher that has lots of finds but no hides, I don't really care. However, I know a few cachers personally, and I would like them to start hiding caches. It kinda bugs me that they haven't. This is mostly just so I can go find their caches and then discuss the experience in person with them.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

Shannon

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I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I've got no hides yet, but I really would like not to hide lame ones. I've got permission pending at one park (should I have asked? I was so torn) and another location scouted, but the only possible parking is prominently labeled No Parking. I've got to walk around the neighborhood and figure that one out.

 

My area is cache-dense, and all the really good hiking trails (my favorite sort of cache) are pretty much covered. I'm starting to compare the geocaching.com cache maps with topo maps showing public lands, trying to find good sites that aren't 'taken'. My favorite state parks from over the years all have three or even four in them already.

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These high-number individuals have no qualms about sometimes trashing a particular hide yet deny their peers the same right to critique something they hide.

You of course have evidence to this fact or are you just making a GIANT assumption about people you don't know? This subject has come up before and it rankles me to no end when folks assume the high numbered folks don't do anything at giving towards the game and trash caches. I cannot point a single finger at anybody that I know that are in the hundreds even the thousands of finds that disrespect caches and the sport the way you describe and I know more than just a couple of them.

Edited by TotemLake
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I don't really respect non hiders much.  my personal opinion.

I guess I feel a bit the same.

Pretty lame criteria for basing your respect of another person on...

 

Some people just don't have what it takes to be able to place a cache...and I would rather they NOT place a cache if they aren't good at it.

 

I do think that it's a good idea that people at least attempt to hide one....but I am not going to lose any respect for that person if they don't think they would make a cache that people would remember...and talk about (in a good way).

 

Even if a person has never hidden a cache...I will respect that person for other things they may have done...such as sending a spare GPS unit to a new cacher, donating $ to a person in need, giving their time to help others, offering a kind word to a person who is down....anything like that...but to not respect someone because they haven't hidden a tupperware container in the woods somewhere?...weak.

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Ah, went back and re-read your post. <_<

 

What's your point? Somebody say something about your caches that you didn't like? Looking for peer approval that their opinion is invalid because they've never hidden anything?

 

Edit: spelling

Edited by Elf Danach
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SHEESH!

 

Every other thread that I have opened today has had someone UP ON THEIR FREAKIN' HIGH HORSE looking down their nose at the percieved lowlifes who do not play the game the way they do.

 

I like being a hider JUST as much as I like being a finder. I don't EXPECT everyone to feel the same way I do to be right with the world.

 

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

 

:D:wub::wub::wub::wub::huh:<_<

:huh:SNOOG5.jpg:P

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Ohhhhhhh, now you've ticked me off! :huh:

 

Part of my duty as a responsible cacher is NOT to hide caches. Why? Because I have no permanent location, and I can't maintain a cache the way it should be.Unless you like lame, junky caches that disappear and never get replaced, you better be eternally grateful I've restrained myself in the Tupperware aisle.

 

I give back to the sport in many other ways--I trade up, and I do maintenance on other people's caches, I've ponied up the $30 for the premium membership, and have read a lot in order to be a positive geocacher.

 

So there. <_<

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I don't really respect non hiders much.  my personal opinion.

I guess I feel a bit the same.

I can sort of understand that, but...

 

I know a local who has crested 2k finds (yes) without a single hide.

 

I also know, or have found caches of, 2 or 3 locals who have relatively small numbers of finds ( <300) and who hide absolutely indiscriminately. Never saw a bush or a guardrail or a roadside tree that they didn't like. Most of them barely one step up from litter.

 

I have a lot more respect for the 1st cacher than the ones in the other group.

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i AM bothered when people use the idiot term "muggle" and i am bothered when all people can thin of to log is "TNLNTFTC" i am alos annoyed by people who swear they're going to come back to a place soon and do some no-geocaching activity, and people who like to tell you how many caches they've done today, or to-date. the only person who cacres that this was your fourth out of seventeen today is YOU.

Ok, I was going to post my opinion but:

1) It's been covered (many give back in other ways....)

2) This post made me LMAO!

 

I agree with a few points here, but man you hit 'em all :ph34r: .

I don't want to derail this thread so I'll jsut say, don't be so quick to make judgements unless you know something that we don't. In which case, please share.

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There are even other things you can do that are good for Geocaching as a sport, but don't exactly count in your stats:

 

1. I've been bringing my nephews and nieces out and teaching them the ethos of geocaching. It's so cool to see how they get excited! Katinator was so excited when she spotted our most recent cache find, and she had just learned about saying "Hootie Hoo!"

 

2. I mentored my niece and nephew, helping them place their first hide.

 

3. All the kids are learning to cache-in, trash-out. We leave all the parks cleaner.

 

4. I've brought a whole bunch of friends into it, and now they're all getting GPSr's!

 

There's nothing like geocaching.

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i am not at all bothered when people find but don't hide. i also don't care if people hide but don't find.

 

i AM bothered when people use the idiot term "muggle" and i am bothered when all people can thin of to log is "TNLNTFTC" i am alos annoyed by people who swear they're going to come back to a place soon and do some no-geocaching activity, and people who like to tell you how many caches they've done today, or to-date. the only person who cacres that this was your fourth out of seventeen today is YOU.

 

but no, i don't care if you don't hide any.

Shoots and scores!

 

In a cache rich area, you have to get increasingly tricky about your caches and this runs into the paradox of "trying to be tricky in order to avoid being repetitive, and end up being so obtuse that no one wants to find your caches".

 

There are a lot of ways to help geocaching progress. We need people to help maintain the ones that are there. As RN put it, be a cache angel and replace the bag or the prizes if needed. Trade down once in a while. Help a new player find a tricky one. Play with personalized game pieces that are trackable back to you through GC.com and watch how far they go. Mine are now scattered from Alaska to South Africa. This presents a very unique find for a cacher and a chance to make friends in other parts of the world.

 

Being the 701st hider of a walmicro or some drive by geocache is not a great thing to be and you have not enhanced your community by dumping a peanut butter jar full of crap into a non-descript park and calling it a geocache.

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One point not touched on yet is: not getting your caches approved. I've got a little better than 50% average in this realm. It's very frustrating to me. I try to follow the rules, and believe I do, but I'm met with a curious amount of resistence.

 

I'm not going to run down the reviewer, 'cause there's a lot involved on all sides of this issue. AND that's not the point. The point is: I'm just trying to improve caching in my area (and apparently am, given the posts I receive) and make folks aware of some of the secrets of my area. But, it gets pretty disheartening, I must say.

 

So, there are those of us out there who are trying to place caches with more ingenuity and creativity but we are stymied with such frequency that we may well stop altogether. And then what will we be left with?

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Maybe you don't like 'TNLNTFC', but what else do you suggest writing on a full roll in a film canister, when there is barely room for that? I try to write something useful and maybe interesting, but for some caches there just isn't anything else that comes to mind, and no place to write it if something did.

 

I'm scouting cache locations, but like lots of others, I want to do it right, and most of the available places already have caches here. My pocket queries hit 500 in about 50 miles, and I don't see the benefit in putting out another micro in a bush in a park. I'll eventually hide one or several, but I don't see any hurry.

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One point not touched on yet is: not getting your caches approved. I've got a little better than 50% average in this realm. It's very frustrating to me. I try to follow the rules, and believe I do, but I'm met with a curious amount of resistence.

I've followed the cache submission guidelines on every cache I've placed and haven't been turned down once. What's your story?

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My wife and I now have 220 finds, 1 hide, and own 2 geocoins. We are paying members of GC.com. We have introduced three co-workers to geocaching. We donate quality containers to others who enjoy hiding. I don't think that we are sucking the hobby dry.

 

We have a cache made up and ready to place. We have been surveying different spots and will be placing a second cache soon. The first spot we chose was very difficult to work with due to poor satellite reception. We tend to appreciate the location of a cache over any other criteria. Location, location, location. When we find the right location for our next cache, it will be placed. We will not place a cache simply to add another cache to the count.

 

We really appreciate quality caches. I will not simply throw a piece of tupperware under a bush and call it a cache. I really appreciate those hiders who take the time to do it right. This is not about numbers for us. It is about going to places that we would not know about, except for geocaching. It is about learning about locations and maybe the history.

 

We do appreciate every hider who places a cache AND maintains it. We especially appreciate those of you who place quality caches, maintain them, and bring us to interesting locations.

 

DZDIVER

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First of all, let me just say with complete sincerity, "Muggle, muggle, muggle." Just needed to get that off my chest. Someone a bit cranky yesterday a.m.?

I personally think that those who have little to no hides should not complain about caches....but that isn't likely to happen.
A lot less complaining, period, but I love you guys, I really do.

 

:D

I say, leave the hiding to the creative minds. Others, like myself, can find other ways of giving back. For example, a few weeks ago I found a cache plundered on the sidewalk. I took it home, repaired it, refilled it with swag, and brought it back.
There's no Scripture on this sport! Relax and let quality people do their thing. God never handed-down a hide quota.

 

:o I chose, after one comment, to look at the Elf's stat page, and now I offer it to you all as a picture of a very well-rounded cacher. From the comments I expected to find "psychologist," but it didn't say.

 

B) Got to spend Monday with Team Cache Me If You Can down in Newark, Ohio. We found 7 belonging to 6 hiders. And I even told them which one we found first - a real nice Virt. So, no one person is carrying the load there. We had a real nice time, and "thank you, Newark."

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I know this is America and nothing says you have to place a hide

That hardly has any kind of national relevance in the geocaching world. B)

 

When I planned my first cache, I felt I need to give back for the community for my finds. Also, in my area at those days there weren't many caches anyway. Plus, the place definitely deserves a cache. So I was happy to have a lot of reasons to go hide it. During the next months I kept hiding about 2 caches per month. Keeping, of course, finding more and more caches all the time.

 

After about 15 hides I grew a bit tired of the hiding side of the hobby. One reason was the maintenance visits. I noticed that it wasn't after all such fun to realize that ohhhh, I have still to drive to that cache to replace the log book... Of course I do maintain my caches, but I just don't consider it fun and I don't like that it actually takes my time from finding new caches and other activities. The more hides, the more to maintain. Even now I have one cache to replace because it's wet. Working on it. Soon. I promise.

 

The other reason was the fact that my area was growing with new geocachers and I started to hear things like I had planned to hide my cache there, but dadgum, Divine/someone made it before me. Sure, there are still lots of places around here with good opportunities to hide caches, but since I already have some hides, why don't I leave those places for others to take advantage of?

 

Finally, I realized I had actually lost my inspiration of hiding caches. I hid couple because I had promised/decided to, but I didn't have that fire burning. In another words, I wasn't happy with them, because I somehow just felt it was an obligation. That's not a good basis of hiding anything. I even got a log from one of my caches saying ..why such a boring place, Mr. Divine? IMO, it wasn't a boring place (and I also got some positive feedback of it) but it didn't help me to light that hiding inspiration fire either.

 

Well, I understand that the topic was about not hiding at all and just finding, but the reasons I had to stop hiding might explain something about those who choose not to hide. Why hide a boring cache which you even have trouble to maintain when you can go without hiding it too?

 

P.s. I might have got some of my inspiration back. I keep actively thinking of a series of caches under a certain theme. I have even scouted some hiding places already. Maybe some day again... :o

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i AM bothered when people use the idiot term "muggle" and i am bothered when all people can thin of to log is "TNLNTFTC" i am alos annoyed by people who swear they're going to come back to a place soon and do some no-geocaching activity, and people who like to tell you how many caches they've done today, or to-date. the only person who cacres that this was your fourth out of seventeen today is YOU.

I care!

 

I like to hear that my cache was the fourth of seventeen for the day or 26th of 94 for the trip and I always like hearing that my cache was a milestone for someone. They are proud of their accomplishments and that makes it fun for me. People who write these things are happy cachers and I like happy cachers.

 

I don't care if people log any variation of TNLN. That represents a very low percentage of entries on the cache pages we have visited - and I am pretty indiscriminate about where I'll go to find a cache. There are plenty of interesting find logs during the life of a geocache.

 

It doesn't really matter if a cacher makes a promise to come back when we know they won't. At least we got them there once.

 

And... (should I even go here?) I used to call them "civilians" or "citizens" but not everyone understood what I meant. I prefer "civilians" but it will never gain acceptance.

 

Back to the original topic…

 

Why is it often suggested that people HAVE to give something back to this sport? I haven't found any shortage of caches in the 100 mile wide corridor between Los Angeles and Seattle where many of the top 40 cachers operate. Plenty of travel bugs, cache events, pizza nights and geocaching organizations.

 

This is another of the many and constant topics where people go out of their way to find something wrong with what other people do. I seldom get the sense that people know the person or people they are complaining about.

 

Grab a tid-bit a run with it? Go ahead but you can't possibly know you are making a fair assessment of the situation.

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i actually AM pleased and honored when somebody chooses one of my caches for their milestone. and i actually am pleased for people at their milestones.

 

what fails to impress me is the people who need to inform the world of their running total. i have instructed my friends to have me killed if i ever start to do this.

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I disagree that finding caches necessarily obligates you to hide them. I know of many people who enjoy hiding more than they do finding. But if we're going to discuss it, let's do it by the numbers and get it right:

 

First we'll simplify the model with nice, easy-to-use numbers. Say there are 100 geocachers in a given area. Each of them hides one geocache. This means each can find 99 caches and has hidden the same number as everyone else. Perfectly fair!

 

Now, not every cacher will find every cache. Suppose SocialistCacher finds only 33 caches. That's one third of the caches available to him. Therefore, he is only responsible for hiding one-third of a cache, or more realistically, he is responsible for hiding one third of the average number of hides of the rest of the cachers. More generally:

 

H = ( C / P ) * ( F / C )

 

where H is the number of caches SocialistCacher must hide, C is the number of caches hidden by people other than SocialistCacher, P is the number of cachers other than SocialistCacher, and F is the number of SocialistCacher finds. The C's cancel, reducing the equation to F / P. So the fair number of caches for a cacher to hide is his finds divided by the number of other cachers.

 

Of course, you should determine C as the number of active cachers in the area you typically cache in. If you used the whole world, everyone's obligation would be less than one cache, and then where would we be? I suggest looking at the number of people at a large event in your area. You should probably double or triple this number to account for less active cachers who don't do events, cachers who couldn't make it, etc. You can use some judgement, just don't fudge the numbers to reduce your duty.

 

Also, you should determine your obligation after each find. It would not be right to determine that you need to hide a cache, then wait around until more cachers appear on the scene, reducing your obligation.

 

Still with me? Because there's more to consider.

 

Some caches take more effort to set up and maintain than other caches. If SocialistCacher's obligation is a single cache, it wouldn't be fair for him to find a bunch of complex puzzle caches and pay the community back with a 1/1 virtual (IMPORTANT NOTE: this is not to say any one type is better than any other; we are talking about estimated effort to set up and maintain). The star ratings are the most convenient method for rating the effort put into a cache's placement -- higher difficulty means it's probably a multi, a puzzle, or a container with some thought and/or expense put into it; a higher terrain means maintenance is probably more difficult. So we'll give each cache an Effort Value that equals the sum of its stars (ranging from 2 to 10). To make this range easier to work with, we'll subtract one when calculating the Effort so that the range is 1 through 9. We'll assume for the sake of our calculations that all caches are rated uniformly using the ClayJar system. When calculating your own obligation, you may want to determine the ClayJar value of any of your finds if you find the posted rating questionable.

 

Total all of the stars on your finds, subtract the nunber of finds, and then divide by the number of finds. This number gives you the average amount of effort put into the caches you found, and you are obliged to put this much effort into your hides. If you are finding a lot of high-effort caches, then you are enjoying the fruits of a more work than someone finding a bunch of easy caches.

 

Previously, we found a obligation based on number of finds. Now we have an obligation based on hider's effort. If we divide the effort obligation by some weight, we can then multiply it by the Finds obligation. Ideally, the weight should be the average effort for the caches in the area in question. For general purposes, we will use an average effort of 4.5, right in the middle of our {1,9} range. So, our final equation is

 

O[tot] = ( F / P ) * ( (D[tot] + T[tot]) / F ) / (4.5)

= (D[tot] + T[tot]) / (4.5*P)

 

As you can see from the final equation, the number of caches you are obligated to find is based on the difficulty and terrain rating of the caches you've found, the average difficult and terrain of caches in your area, and the number of cachers in your area.

 

When hiding your obligatory finds, be sure your average effort equals or exceeds the average effort of the caches you found. You can split the number any way you like between difficulty and terrain.

 

Example: SocialistCacher's general caching area only has five other cachers. SC finds six caches: a 1/5, two 3/3's, a 2/3, and two 2/2's. The average effort for his finds is (1+5-1)+(3+3-1)+(3+3-1)+(2+3-1)+(2+2-1)+(2+2-1) = 25. Dividing that by (5.5)*(5) gives 1.11. So SocialistCacher is now obligated to hide at least one cache. However many caches he chooses to hide at this point, the average effort must be 25/6 = 4.1, or 4. So he could hide one 2/3; one 4/1; a 1/1 and a 2/2; and so on.

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Non-hiders know one thing. If everyone played the game the way they do, there would be no game.

 

If they can live with that, so can I.

 

-WR

and as an added thought, if nobody came to find things there would be no game either. i used to hide containers as a kid, but sice everybody who would have looked for them helped hide them or wasn't allowed to go play in the field, it was a pretty boring game.

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Non-hiders know one thing. If everyone played the game the way they do, there would be no game.

I think we can assume that if there were no caches somebody would go out and hide some. Ample evidence exists to support that assumption.

 

What is really happening with this topic is that some people are upset that others don't play the game the way they (the upset players) believe everyone else should. The upset players are trying to force their values on other players.

 

Since there is no shortage of caches in areas where these high-find, no-place cachers play the game what benefit is it to the sport to criticize them? I can't imagine there are even enough h-f, n-p cachers statistically to justify this concern.

 

Lets look at the inverse of this issue here: What exactly are people "giving back to the sport " when they criticize other players for what often are non-issues such as posed in this topic? Is that contribution positive and productive?

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Some people write books. Some people read books. There are more people that read them than write them. It works in the literary world, and it works in the geocaching world.

That about says it all.

 

And you did it with so few words. I've been working toward that goal for years but progress is painfully slow.

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Personally, I'd rather have only those people hide caches who are eager to do so. Because then chances are way better that it will be an interesting cache...

 

BTW, those who don't hide miss a big part of the fun - the rewards from reading the logs that are full of praise of that fantastic cache... ;) ;)

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Some people write books. Some people read books. There are more people that read them than write them. It works in the literary world, and it works in the geocaching world.

Oh, Pip, we're not gonna have a "reguired reading list" now, too, are we?

(actually, a concise and wonderfully expressive way to make a point.) :D

 

;) We were cachin' on Mon. My youngest sister's daughter "D" had a brand new boxy-looking Toyota or somethin'. The two baby seats pretty much fill it. She proceeded to jump Mom because she tapped her fingernail on the hood. We teased her about that all day. POINT: When you care about something you may act a little crazy. So with geocachers. You don't need to be jumpin' everyone who taps your hood. ;)

Edited by Robespierre
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If there were no "lame" caches, we wouldn't have people logging 100+ finds/day. So lame caches have their uses at times, and those that hide them are contributing as well. Every altoids tin or film container requires some degree of effort to print the log sheets, actually hide the cache, and then create the cache page.

 

A lame cache can be a consolation when you've just had 3 DNFs on hikes and don't want to be skunked for the day.

 

If you don't like driveup micros in parking lots, it's easy to avoid them.

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This was a very interesting thread until two cachers posted without fully reading and comprehending the discussion and derailed it for a time. :mad:

 

Anyway, BOT, if you're waiting to hide a cache because you want the "perfect spot" or the "best hide ever" you'll be waiting forever. Hiding caches is a learning process, IMO. Hide one and see how it goes!

 

Hide caches or don't - its all geocaching to me. :P

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When I first started geocaching, I promised myself that I would find 100 caches before I hid my first cache. Well, I've finally reached 100 finds, but I'm a bit apprehensive to hide a cache, because my area is full of fun and creative caches from the likes of 9key that I just couldn't live up to. If only I had an ounce of his creativity. :mad:

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