Thoughts On Micro-caches

[marty621]

Firstly, I have set some micro's myself and I believe that they certainly have a place. Having just failed to find one, without commenting on cachers rights to set them, I was wondering what others thought. I just think that maybe we are missing the jist of our sport, which is GPS navigation, when we change the game to hide and seek of micro's. We have to remember the accuracy capability of our units. For example. if the unit is only capable of 10 meter accuracy in deep woods and we are searching for a 1/2" x 1 1/2" green bison tube, aren't we missing the point of the sport. Yes, we should introduce challenge, but I think micros should be used judiciously. Micros are fine when hidden in some object that is uniquely identifiable in deep woods or other homogeneous environment. Let's hear from others.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm with you on Micros. They belong where you can't use a bigger container. By having them though you can play this game in places that would not be viable were we limited to ammo cans.

[+Team DEMP]

It doesn't really bother me searching for a micro, but if I'm putting in a decent effort to get to the location, I'd rather not have to walk away disappointed. If it's a drive-by you can make the hide tough, but if it's a strenuous or long hike, I think the find (with the hint if necessary) should give someone every opportunity to locate it and walk away with a find.

[+Team Shibby]

It doesn't really bother me searching for a micro, but if I'm putting in a decent effort to get to the location, I'd rather not have to walk away disappointed. If it's a drive-by you can make the hide tough, but if it's a strenuous or long hike, I think the find (with the hint if necessary) should give someone every opportunity to locate it and walk away with a find.

 

My thoughts exactly

 

Kar

[+Squealy]

I think you guys all hit the nail right on the head.

 

Looking for some ridiculously small micro after bushwacking .25 to get to some remote area is a bit silly.

 

Anyone can make that hard. However, creative micros in urban locales (did I just use locale?) or pretty crowded places that require stealth are usually a fun challenge to either locate or retrieve.

 

Just my $ .02.

[avroair]

I respectfully somewhat disagree. Some caches are not meant to be found. Although it is evil to throw a micro over your shoulder. The challenge is finding the micro. If the cache owner wants to do that then we cannot suppress them into hiding only large ammo cans. But I do understand your point.

 

If the sport is meant for GPS navigation why do we not have more multis or caches where you need to use your unit someway. By the same virtue, shouldn't the driveup caches in a local suburban park be under the same scrutiny as the micro in the woods?

[marty621]

Avroair, What do you mean by some caches are not meant to be found?

I think multis and caches that have extensive use of the GPS are the way to go. If we all used survey-grade GPS units with few centimeter accuracy, then micros would be more appropriate, but with the accuracy constraints of present handhelds in the woods, it can be just a waste of time.

I have plenty of ideas for navigation problems or physically challenging caches, but have not posted most of them becauseI believe they stray from the direction of Geocaching.

[+RickIII]

I gave up on a few micros after looking for awhile and not even finding something that made me feel I was close! With some you cant be sure if it hid real well or it's missing.

 

I saw some real small micros (micro micro's) yesterday, and those will be very difficult to find.

 

Then again, this is just my opinion... and you know what they say!

[+OurWoods]

If we all used survey-grade GPS units with few centimeter accuracy, then micros would be more appropriate, but with the accuracy constraints of present handhelds in the woods, it can be just a waste of time.

I think you missed a bit of what people have said. Most people do not like to hike a mile into the woods and then look for a nitro capsule that was painted black, just about everyone agrees there. However there are areas where there simply aren't places where you can hike for a mile into the woods (or at all).

 

Micro's have their place. To me it is in smaller parks, that see alot of use, and busy metropolitan areas. It can be alot of fun to be searching for something thousands of people pass by everyday and retrieve it without anyone noticing you. However some people do not like that, and that is okay as well.

 

To me at least the accuracy of the unit has little to do with hunting a micro (or any cache). Why do you need it to bring you within centimeters of a cache in the woods, as you say? Isn't half of geocaching "looking for things?" I know that I would be extremely bored of caching if all I had to do was walk .5 miles then find a gigantic container that was sitting in the middle of the path and all I had to do was sign the log and then be done.

 

The great thing about geocaching is that there are many different avenues it can take you down. You can choose just one, large easy to find ammo boxes in the woods, or can you can take many and laugh as you find a tiny thimble size cache in a park not much bigger, or read an interesting memorial to complete a virtual, or play car bingo with locationless caches! Stop worrying and just have fun.

 

ps. if you hate micros, don't look for them.

[BassoonPilot]

My thought on micro-caches is that people who are unable or unwilling to methodically search an area in an organized manner should probably avoid doing micro-caches with more than a couple of difficulty stars. I know that, regardless of a cache's difficulty rating, many people search "willy-nilly" for very few minutes before either giving up or panicking and entering "search-and-destroy" mode, leveling the area.

 

If the sport is meant for GPS navigation why do we not have more multis or caches where you need to use your unit someway.

 

Time and effort are the keys. 95% of the geocaching community is either too lazy or is simply unwilling to allow anything to hinder their quest for more and more smilies. The prevailing attitude seems to be "Why bother doing a cache that requires one to walk a few miles, or solve some simple puzzle/task, when one can drive 5 miles down the road and pick up 10 smilies in an hour."

[+RickIII]

Time and effort are the keys.  95% of the geocaching community is either too lazy or is simply unwilling to allow anything to hinder their quest for more and more smilies.  The prevailing attitude seems to be "Why bother doing a cache that requires one to walk a few miles, or solve some simple puzzle/task, when one can drive 5 miles down the road and pick up 10 smilies in an hour."

Someone recently asked me why I hike/walk so much instead of driving from cache to cache. For me it is getting outside, seeing new areas, and getting some caches.

 

hmmm... sounds like the actual cache is low on that list

[+ski]

I think you guys all hit the nail right on the head.

 

Creative micros in urban locales (did I just use locale?) or pretty crowded places that require stealth are usually a fun challenge to either locate or retrieve.

 

Just my $ .02.

If you are questioned by the authorities too many times for looking suspicious in heavily crowded areas it doesn't seem like a fun challenge anymore.

 

There is a new micro cache in SJersey hidden at the entrance to an underwater highway tunnel next to a security fence? Why? The police have better things to do than question a guy like me poking around the mouth of a major thoroughfare with an electronic device. (I posted a archive request for that one/ it's still active)

 

There are also caches down here in huge parks with large wooded areas, but the owner chooses to hide micros under playground equipment instead.

[+Polgara]

I respectfully somewhat disagree. Some caches are not meant to be found. Although it is evil to throw a micro over your shoulder.  The challenge is finding the micro. If the cache owner wants to do that then we cannot suppress them into hiding only large ammo cans. But I do understand your point. 

 

If the sport is meant for GPS navigation why do we not have more multis or caches where you need to use your unit someway. By the same virtue, shouldn't the driveup caches in a local suburban park be under the same scrutiny as the micro in the woods? 

Suppress them to hide large ammo cans? Like they are *easy * to hide? I went for one yesterday ontop a mountain, gettin to the top of that mountain was alot harder than the 5 difficulty micro i found the weekend before. Props to the cache owner who hauled that ammo can up that hill...I'm wondering how they held the can while on all fours. Some ammo cans are hidden extremely well, like in a 200 by 300 foot boulder wash you have to scramble up. Thats like a needle in a haystack, only your haystack might have snakes in it or slide out from under you.

 

Cache hunts that involve loooonnng hikes will require you to use your GPS for more than follow the arrow. However, loooooooong hikes aren't for everyone. SOme people don't like hiking, but they can still enjoy caching!

 

I don't hate micros or park and grabs, in fact i very much enjoyed the ones i found after the loooooong hike. They taught me about the history of the area. BUT it was the long hike that teaches me about me, and how far i can push myself, which is what i treasure about caching. There is alot to experience on a long hike, there are raspberries to pick, animals to see, waterfalls to hop on, and the most beautiful views. Oh, and its fun playing volleyball with the bears too!

Edited August 9, 2004 by Polgara

[avroair]

Avroair, What do you mean by some caches are not meant to be found?

I think multis and caches that have extensive use of the GPS are the way to go. If we all used survey-grade GPS units with few centimeter accuracy, then micros would be more appropriate, but with the accuracy constraints of present handhelds in the woods, it can be just a waste of time.

I have plenty of ideas for navigation problems or physically challenging caches, but have not posted most of them becauseI believe they stray from the direction of Geocaching.

Avroair, What do you mean by some caches are not meant to be found?

 

Hey Marty,

 

I just tend to go for that mantra when placing caches. I am not placing them for a newbie to drive up and grab, but rather they need some thought, experience, luck and GPS skills to find them.

 

Whereas, I would agree that micros should be reserved for situations that warrant them, I was merely pointing out that the drive bys fall under the same scrutiny.

[mortonfox]

There is a new micro cache in SJersey hidden at the entrance to an underwater highway tunnel next to a security fence? Why? The police have better things to do than question a guy like me poking around the mouth of a major thoroughfare with an electronic device. (I posted a archive request for that one/ it's still active)

I think I know the cache to which you're referring. I'm not saying that it is 100% appropriate but it is in a public park, not at the same level as the highway. Just don't go there at night or before dawn.

Edited August 9, 2004 by stayfloopy

[+Salvelinus]

To me at least the accuracy of the unit has little to do with hunting a micro (or any cache). Why do you need it to bring you within centimeters of a cache in the woods, as you say? Isn't half of geocaching "looking for things?" I know that I would be extremely bored of caching if all I had to do was walk .5 miles then find a gigantic container that was sitting in the middle of the path and all I had to do was sign the log and then be done.

I find this paragraph interesting.

 

In case you never heard or have forgotten, geocaching was first conceived because a gentlemen named Dave Ulmer was curious to see if someone could use a commercial GPS unit to navigate to, and find a tupperware size container, using just coordinates...after the US government unscrambled Satellite signals (Selective Availability). So, geocaching was based and founded with the concept of GPS navigation in mind. The latest rage of "finding a needle in a haystack" is a direction some geocachers have taken this sport within the last year or two. This, to me, does not seem to be anything like the original concept of geocaching.

 

In the early days, the forums were full of threads talking about location, location, location and a strong emphasis on cache maintenance and CITO. Then one day a thread showed up giving a cacher accolades about how many caches they had found...and the numbers rage began.

 

This past Sunday a group of us walked 0.3 mile along a really cool trail to find a relatively large and easy cache. On our way there we admired and photographed a beaver swamp and bear prints, were facinated at seeing a natural gas seep bubbling up through a spring, and laughed and cursed at having to negotiate a VERY muddy trail. The next cache we sought allowed us to drive within 20 feet of the container, which was an advil bottle tied in the lower limbs of a tree and nothing but a rolled up scrap of paper to sign on.

 

Guess which one we'll remember?

 

Micros do have their place. But when your micro takes me to a gravel parking lot next to the road in a geocaching friendly National Forest. Or, to a sewage pump station, and I have to spend an hour unraveling your "cleaver hide"...I think the "point" has been totally missed.

 

Salvelinus

 

edit: Semantics

Edited August 10, 2004 by Salvelinus

[+nikcap]

Oh-oh!

Personally, I like micros a lot. However, micros, like any cache, must be taken on a individual basis. There is a balance that each cache, or type of cache should have. If a cache is a micro 1 mile in the woods, where there is heavy tree cover and bad signal bounce, that's fine. Just put those facts in the cache description.

A hid a key in a guard rail along the hi way can be interesting too. At least you know what your up against and that stealth will play a key part in the retrieval of the cache.

 

I think that's the beauty of the sport, there is so many variations of the types of caches, puzzles and methods of hiding.

 

Unfortunately, there are cache hiders that place caches in the hopes that it will not be found. Take you pick, the buried/concealed cache, questionable/secure location, poor description/hints, coordinated that are purposely 60ft off.

 

If I hike out to one of these and enjoy the walk and the scenery then all is not lost. If it's a micro in a mulch pile or Wal-Mart parking lot, it hardly matters to me because I'm only going to spent 1-2 minutes looking. (and about 45 seconds, think this is a waste of my time) There are other quality caches, hikes and locations to visit.

 

For me it all comes down to the fun factor. If your idea of fun is racking up the smilies, being FTF, only doing long hikes and hydrocaches, cache and dash, solving puzzles, abandoned stuff in the woods, or hiding caches that nobody can find, then that's your prerogative.

 

So, are micros too hard?

Some are designed to be hard, some are designed to be very hard, some are designed to supercede a virtual cache, some are only present to help people pad there numbers.

Some are well thought out and memorable, and may be a result of one of the aforementioned purposes.

 

I guess what's important is that each cache accomplishes exactly what the hider intended.

 

</UNLURK>

 

<LURK>Shut trap

[+briansnat]

I think micros have their place and are fine for caches in high traffic areas where a regular sized cache is likely to be discovered by non geocachers. Since high traffic areas tend to involve a short walk to the cache, the added difficulty of finding a micro adds to the hunt. But for areas where full sized caches can be hidden, I'd rather that they be used.

 

First, even though I rarely trade, to me there is still something to be said about opening an ammo box, or large Tupperware container. A sense of anticipation I guess. I don't get this with micros.

 

Second, after hiking a mile or two, or more to the cache, a film canister at the end of the walk is a bit of an anticlimax. I want to hear the clunk of an ammo box being dragged out of its hidey hole and the whoosh sound as I open it. I also want a full sized logbook so I can write a little about my adventure and the enjoyable time I had. Penciling in the date and my initials crib sheet style isn't quite the same.

 

Next, after a strenuous hike, I don't really feel like spending an hour looking for a needle in a haystack. I find it difficult to look for these caches without making a mess of the area, no matter how hard I try not to. The cache could be anywhere and often you have to start moving rocks, sticks and deadfalls around. They also cause too many geocachers to resort to the scorched earth method of searching, which isn't good for our sport.

 

Finally, though it isn't a major problem in our area (at least northern NJ), micros tend to attract lazy cache hiders. The type who place caches with no redeeming value other than adding a hide to their profile. Slip a few strips of paper (often just torn from a notebook, as they can't even be bothered with scissors), into a film canister, toss it practically anywhere and mark the waypoint.

Edited August 10, 2004 by briansnat

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

Everyone has different opinions but I enjoy people finding my caches more than not finding them. Ya stick micro in the woods and you'll get lots of no finders.

 

So when I see the micro sign and the map indicates it's in a rural area, I lose interest.

[+JMBella]

My opinion pretty much echoes the rest of you. I really can't stand a micro hidden in the middle of 1000 acres of forest in a hole in a 40 oak tree. If it's a multi cache obviously that's a different story. On the other hand I enjoy tremendously a creative, well thought out urban micro. There's nothing creative about dropping a film can down a huge hole in tree. On the flip side if you're super creative you can figure out a way to place a full size cache in an urban setting.

[mortonfox]

If it's a multi cache obviously that's a different story.

Why a different story? Think about it. It is still a needle in a haystack for the first N-1 stages if all the intermediate stages are micros.

[+briansnat]

If it's a multi cache obviously that's a different story.

Why a different story? Think about it. It is still a needle in a haystack for the first N-1 stages if all the intermediate stages are micros.

Its different because they aren't usually placed with the intent to make them hard to find. Knowing that they are just preliminary stages, owners tend to make them fairly easy finds, whereas placing a micro cache in the woods is usually done specifically to confound geocachers and make the hunt a difficult one.

[mortonfox]

Its different because they aren't usually placed with the intent to make them hard to find. Knowing that they are just preliminary stages, owners tend to make them fairly easy

NatureBoy44 would be the exception to this. Actually, some of the intermediate stages in your caches take a while to find too, even if that is not intentional.

[nikcap]

If it's a multi cache obviously that's a different story.

Why a different story? Think about it. It is still a needle in a haystack for the first N-1 stages if all the intermediate stages are micros.

Its different because they aren't usually placed with the intent to make them hard to find.

... and I think that's the whole point of the conversation.

 

If a hider can hide a multi stage in such a way, why can't the final stage or single micro be hidden the same way?

 

NatureBoy44 would be the exception to this.

 

True, and those cache are fantasitc! Since the tough part is finding the first stage, your reward is found at the second stage, a short walk away. I can do caches like this all day ... wait, I think I have

 

To comment on some previous post.

Brian, you bring up some great points. Finding a nice size "prize" does give a bit of a trill. But micros arean't going to go away, it's important the we all cache responsibly, tearing up the area around GZ is just plan wrong. I wont do it. I rather say I took a nice walk, then to leave with a smilie at the expense of trampling the ground cover, or evicting a family of newts and toads from their home. But, I’m preaching to the choir here.

 

I too agree, I much more enjoy reading about cachers who find our caches than cachers who searched for an hour and came up empty handed.

[+JMBella]

If it's a multi cache obviously that's a different story.

Why a different story? Think about it. It is still a needle in a haystack for the first N-1 stages if all the intermediate stages are micros.

Its different because they aren't usually placed with the intent to make them hard to find. Knowing that they are just preliminary stages, owners tend to make them fairly easy finds, whereas placing a micro cache in the woods is usually done specifically to confound geocachers and make the hunt a difficult one.

Exactly. Sure in some cases I might want to make the stages of a multi more difficult. In that case I'll still try and be creative about it instead of dropping it in one of 20 ammo can sized holes.

[mortonfox]

If it's a multi cache obviously that's a different story.

Why a different story? Think about it. It is still a needle in a haystack for the first N-1 stages if all the intermediate stages are micros.

Its different because they aren't usually placed with the intent to make them hard to find. Knowing that they are just preliminary stages, owners tend to make them fairly easy finds, whereas placing a micro cache in the woods is usually done specifically to confound geocachers and make the hunt a difficult one.

Exactly. Sure in some cases I might want to make the stages of a multi more difficult. In that case I'll still try and be creative about it instead of dropping it in one of 20 ammo can sized holes.

A single-stage microcache in the woods can be creative and well-planned too. So you can't necessarily generalize that a micro in the woods is always better when it is part of a multicache.

 

The difference, as I see it, is a series of micros leading to a larger cache feels more rewarding than just one micro alone. And that seems to be true even if I don't trade.

[+drfred]

Anyone who hasn't bought into the idea of micros hasn't found any good ones! In urban or suburban areas these caches are priceless. If you think that going 3 miles into the woods to hunt for a 35mm container is painful, how about looking on the side of the road for a tupperware container barely hidden behind a tree? What a waste of time!

 

Most of my favorite caches have been micros - whether hidden far in the woods or bored into a hole on a telephone pole. Many micros are very clever. The sprinkler head you play soccer above may well be a cache. The power outlet on the side of the building may not actually carry any power - but a cache! It opens your mind to realize that any common object you see every day may not be what it appears to be.

 

I agree that one of the best aspects of geocaching is that it gets me into the outdoors. When you live in a city, however, getting out for 30 mins at lunchtime is sometimes the best you can do. Not many ammo cans can be hidden at the corner of 18th and 8th, but countless micros can!

[+ski]

 

Most of my favorite caches have been micros - whether hidden far in the woods or bored into a hole on a telephone pole. Many micros are very clever. The power outlet on the side of the building may not actually carry any power - but a cache!

Bored into telephone poles or power outlet on the sides of the buildings? Both are illegal if a utility company owns them. How do they get approved?

[+HartClimbs]

Hey, it's a game. I go with the kids to find caches, and have found they enjoy finding a "cache" (as opposed to a bison tube or film canister) at the end of their hike.

 

Maybe I'm a kid at heart, but I definitely enjoy the idea of finding a larger container.

 

I'm also with Salv.....I enjoy the hiking more than the searching (so I guess I'm a "lazy" cacher), so while I may spend several hours hiking to get to GZ - I typically don't spend more than a few minutes searching. I guess that explains all the DNF's and multiple visits I've had to caches!

 

I also don't agree "some caches aren't meant to be found". If you're placing caches with the intent of nobody finding it, isn't that geomasturbation?

[+JMBella]

isn't that geomasturbation?

Stop spying on me!!

[avroair]

I also don't agree "some caches aren't meant to be found"

 

Let me clarify:

 

I mean that some caches are not necessarily suppose to be found on the first try, or after a 2 minute search. People should be prepared for something out of the ordinary. They involve some work and effort.

 

I have placed a couple where I would expect a finder will probably have to return. Some have found them on the first try, most on the second. They are a different and suppose to be tough, for cachers who like tough to find caches.

 

Much like Hartclimbs, Not Far from a Tree and Christmas Ornament

[mortonfox]

There is a time and place for everything. Some days I can walk a mile or two in and get an ammo can. Other days, all I can do with a twisted ankle is take a few steps and then stare at a tree until I see the micro.

[+Team Rampant Lion]

I have to admit that some days I HATE micro-caches, particularly if they are placed in isolation in an impossible to find spot after a long walk . But I also have a very bad habit of running off to hunt without the cache information so most of my frustration is back at the computer when I realize I was looking for the wrong thing.

 

But there are places for micros as I have placed a few myself. In my cases, the Geocaching Admin did not want to approve a virtual and the Park Super would not allow a regular at particular locations. Rather than give up the opportunity to draw people to a great location or involve geocachers in a unique challenge, I went with micros and got approval from both.

 

If clearly identified in the description, I think they are fair game and should be included. I would like it best if Geocaching.com had a different icon for micros so they are easily identifiable from the onset. They are a significantly different challenge from a traditional cache search.

[shanni-bugbait-wren]

We like micros (more Bugbait than myself), they're fun and challenging. Also, some of the ones we found are disguised in outstanding fashions. Hats off to NB44 and Kitegirl for some of their micros.

[+Howie57]

I like Micros. Everyone would rather be out in the woods hunting ammo boxes. That can't always be done. I think the urban micro has it's place for when we are bored and NEED to find a cache and there isn't enough time to head into the woods. I place them in different areas around my city so that if someone is bored and maybe on their way to do some shopping they could say hey, there's that micro close to this store or that one why not do it? They get to hunt a cache and still get real life stuff done too. Not to mention those of us out here that have chronic knee pain that just can't go for a 2 mile hike every day, a micro is a welcome site for our fix. As for a easy micro in a shopping center somewhere and it being a easy find to run up ones numbers.... does anyone really care about cache numbers?

So I look at it as if you like doing micros, do them. If you don't like them then don't do them.......................

 

sidebar:

and if someone would have had a made up ammo box instead of just a micro on their trip from another state they would have put it in the woods and not under playground equipment! I know.

[+tneigel]

Seems there is flexibility for all kinds of cachers, all kinds of caches, in all kinds of places (assuming everything is done legally and such).

 

I don't go for the trinkets much now. Mostly go for the location and finding a new area and learning about it.

 

There are so many caches out there, that one can pick and choose. I figure a micro listing is going to be a bit harder, then a family tupperware in a local park, with a lower difficulty rating. I generally migrate towards a more difficult one or something off the ground, and have a very hard time finding them. That is really ok since the getting out part is the big thing for me. I really like the exercise factor and a mile out is as natural as breathing. I don't have a lot of finds, and if I get one or two on a trip and get to interesting spots, that is a really good day.

 

Maybe as we get experience, we want harder finds, or something different, and look for them, be it a mico or whatever different. And yet there is still the need for the basic tupperware with the goodies. I like signed coins or something special from a cacher. Don't bother much with the other stuff as much. I like going 3-d when looking for a cache. Man are they hard, when not sure if its on the ground, or up a tree. I would rather find a fake rock, or phony pine cone, or something special then the family type cache. And I am changing all my caches to those types over time. Some big containers, and some nasty nano's.

 

The thing all this make me thing about is, getting the cache page description as clear as possible so the seacher knows what they are in for. So, I will try to update my cache pages accordingly.

[+RVA_Scooter_Girl & Matty Syxx]

I'm relatively new to the sport, and have discovered that for the most part, I choose to avoid the micros that are simply micros. The ones I've found have no sense of accomplishment for me. As a matter of fact, I went on one recently that was hidden behind a guy's house in a very uninteresting part of town. A huge dissapointment.

 

However....when doing a multi cache that includes micros, those I get a kick out of. I actually just set up my first multi that takes the hunter through a pretty urban part of town. The micros are magnets and are probably going to be tough to find...but the outcome at the end is what makes it worth it.

 

My two cents.