When Not To Cito?

[+Mopar]

How about at personal health and safety? We did a cache the other day in an urban park. We found the cache about 5ft from 3 used hypodermic needles. It was noted in the logs the needles were nearby. There is lots of natural debris and I didn't even notice the needles until I almost stepped on them. The cache description states you can drive to within 5ft of the car, so this is the type of cache you might do in sneakers or flipflops. The intent was to warn others to watch out for them. The next finder has young kids, and did not let them seek this cache, presumably because of the needles. So what do we get today? A flaming email for not picking up the dirty hiv-infected needles and trashing them out like good cachers. Sorry, I do not have the proper equipment to trash out possibly infected medical sharps. I feel by posting the log we warned other cachers and the owner.

I sure hope the cache owner who claims he ran right out to clean them up DID dispose of them properly. Just tossing them in the trash could potentially kill someone.

 

So, is there more we should have done? Call the police? I know from prior incidents even the police will not touch them. Besides, doing so would have surely compromised the cache a few feet away. Was including a warning in the log enough?

Edited August 2, 2004 by Mopar

[+TeamK-9]

I usually carry a few sets of latex gloves in my cache bag for emergencies. I really don't know there is a way that a civillian could actually dispose of a hypodermic needle without exposing yourself to infection. So definately warn people of the needles, but really, I think it might be a good idea to just move or archive the cache...

[+CompuCash]

I did the same thing this weekend - park is long and thin on a major street. DNF'd the cache and logged it that we'd found syringes. Did a little CITO but sorry - not going after those little buggers.

 

This park - unfortunately is posted as not being kept up due to budget cuts.

 

I fully agree - and this is a park with a little kid's play area very close to where we found this junk.

 

Police? naw - ya think? doubt they would or would want to do anything - the park dept. has posted it as "we don't care" so who does? Good question.

[+Team Flashncache]

Hmmmm. This is a tough one. I have some training in Bloodborne Pathogens and Universal Precautions, but I can't think of anyone (short of on-duty EMS) who would have access to sharps containers while out caching.

I think you did the responsible thing by noting their presence in your log. Anything further than that would have placed you at risk. Besides, from a "public safety" standpoint, throwing them in a nearby trash container IS NOT AN OPTION!

 

I would think that the best thing to do in this case is to gently recommend to the cache owner that it's time to relocate the cache to an area that "users" don't frequent.

[+Geo Ho]

Mopar and I did this cache together. He found it first and waited for me to find it before pulling it out of it's hiding spot. It wasn't until we were replacing the logbook into the cache that we spotted used hypodermic needles lying on the ground only a couple feet from the cache amongst leaves and twigs and other debris.

 

I'm all for CITO, but I am not risking getting punctured by a potentially contaminated needle. There is no way I am picking up this kind of trash.

 

 

Frankly, I am insulted by the offensive nature of the hider's cache note and email he sent to me personally. Call me irresponsible or insensitive to nature . . . call me whatever you want . . . be realistic . . . it is not happening.

 

If it was me and someone posted a log that indicated that drug paraphernalia was found near my cache . . . I would either relocate the stash or archive the cache.

 

Okay . . . I'm done venting.

 

Anyhoo . . . happy caching and stuff! After all, that what it's about right? Oh! That and the numbers . . . it's all about the numbers.

[+tirediron]

Ummm yeah, that note was just a little strong. Personally, I would have been very tempted to go home, get some appropriate gloves and stuff, pick them up, and take them to the office of the person responsible for that park, and drop them on his desk.

 

Budget cuts or not, governments big or small (and I assume that is a municipal park) have a responsibility to maintain basic safety standards. That is NOT safe.

[+Eric K]

I wouldn't touch them. Even for those of you that say you would go back or use latex gloves used hyperdermic needles still need to be disposed of properly.

 

You can't just throw them in the trash.

 

If this was my cache and I found out it was in an area with used hyperdermic needles maybe I would move it, archive it, and then let park officials know about the used needles.

 

Being just a few feet away some people hike with their dogs and that could be bad news for your pooch.

 

http://www.usageocoins.com

http://www.travelbugraces.com

Edited August 2, 2004 by Eric K

[+wimseyguy]

Sticky situation-pun intended.

Now a serious thought: Working in foodservice for 20+ years has made me hypervigilent to similar issues; personal and public safety and blood borne pathogens. I usually carry a few pair of latex gloves, but they won't protect you from a needle prick. I see Mopar and GH's side of the situation-a need for self preservation and a legit concern for those caching behind them. But what of the cachers who are already out for the day and won't see your log until tomorrow? What about little Tommy just riding his bike nearby who doesn't read cache page logs?

The cache owner had no reason to use the tone and language he chose to use, and owes M&G a quick apology, but I share some of his disappointment at their reluctance to take more direct action.

 

Possible solution:

What if: it was possible to lift the offending needles using a nearby twig and drop them into a discarded bottle or can, and then drop that into the trash? That way by using a utensil you protect yourself from exposure, and using a makeshift sharps holder you protect anyone dumpster diving or simply pushing down on the trash from being punctured? It isn't the ideal solution, but it removes the offending material from the locale immediatly. I think I would still contact the cache owner, and perhaps local authorities, but I doubt there would be much of a response.

Anyone from the LEO/RN/EMT thread care to comment on this solution?

Oh and TI-do we really need to antagonize land managers who can control where we can hide caches?

[SunshineSnuz]

I think that y'all were totally RIGHT not to touch those needles and to get flamed for not doing so is incredulous!

I cache with my four-year old daughter the majority of the time and definitely would have appreciated the log note (and picture) y'all left.

 

The only thing I most likely would have done differently is I would have informed the Parks Dept and/or the Police. Yes, they may not have done anything but at the same time, they might have (or gotten someone out there that COULD handle it).

 

As for compromising the nearby cache... I would rather compromise the cache than compromise someones health.

It's just a game after all.

[+Mopar]

What if: it was possible to lift the offending needles using a nearby twig and drop them into a discarded bottle or can, and then drop that into the trash? That way by using a utensil you protect yourself from exposure, and using a makeshift sharps holder you protect anyone dumpster diving or simply pushing down on the trash from being punctured? It isn't the ideal solution, but it removes the offending material from the locale immediatly.

It's also illegal, and the cause of 40% the several thousand sanitation and recycling workers needle sticks a year. The avg cost to be tested after a needle stick is over $3000.

[+brdad]

 

Possible solution:

What if: it was possible to lift the offending needles using a nearby twig and drop them into a discarded bottle or can, and then drop that into the trash? That way by using a utensil you protect yourself from exposure, and using a makeshift sharps holder you protect anyone dumpster diving or simply pushing down on the trash from being punctured? It isn't the ideal solution, but it removes the offending material from the locale immediatly. I think I would still contact the cache owner, and perhaps local authorities, but I doubt there would be much of a response.

If you found a stick of dynamitye near a cache, would you move it with twigs so it would not be in the way of other cachers?

I don't see this as an option.

 

There must be someone that should be contacted in such cases, but I have no idea who it would be.

[+Team DEMP]

Wow - I would ignore the response from the cache owner and likely avoid their caches in the future. I too would not have picked up the potential life threatening debris and would have posted a warning to other cachers. I think you did everything the way I would have, so it must be right

 

Maybe you can ask the cache owner to meet you at the cache and accidentally trip and puncture them with one of the needles. Maybe they'd think differently about it from then on.

 

David

[+wimseyguy]

 

Possible solution:

What if: it was possible to lift the offending needles using a nearby twig and drop them into a discarded bottle or can, and then drop that into the trash? That way by using a utensil you protect yourself from exposure, and using a makeshift sharps holder you protect anyone dumpster diving or simply pushing down on the trash from being punctured? It isn't the ideal solution, but it removes the offending material from the locale immediatly. I think I would still contact the cache owner, and perhaps local authorities, but I doubt there would be much of a response.

If you found a stick of dynamitye near a cache, would you move it with twigs so it would not be in the way of other cachers?

I don't see this as an option.

 

There must be someone that should be contacted in such cases, but I have no idea who it would be.

NO! I would stay there and call 911 on my cell phone and give them the coordinates and directions to come remove it. Now shall we stay on topic or degrade into AS?

[+timberlane74 & pumpkin]

 

 

There must be someone that should be contacted in such cases, but I have no idea who it would be.

In our area the County Health Department has always been of help removing "debris" when notified.

[+wimseyguy]

This may be comparing slightly different apples but this article from the UAB School of Nursing suggests this solution for household sharps such as insulin needles:

We focused on presenting ideas for creative, but simple, containers that can be thrown away safely, Fuqua says. For example, needles can be placed in large prescription bottles once they're empty. Empty detergent bottles, too, can be used, or heavy-duty plastic toothbrush containers. Any hard plastic container with a screw cap will do. Even a box with a balloon stretched over the top could work.

And yes, I did see this in a Google search after my initial post.

[+2qwerqE]

I am a diabetic, and tho I am not insulin dependant, I do finger stick tests often. If I came upon used needles at a cache, I would use one of the baggies I alway have in my cache kit as a glove to pick them up. (You don't need to pick them up by the point; a baggie is an acceptable barrier for this.) If there is a discarded bottle. But if not, I would empty my water bottle and drop them into the water bottle, and dispose of them, bottle and all, in a trash receptacle. This is a legal and safe way to dispose of needles.

 

If I were the cache owner, and learned that the location of the cache is used by addicts, I would REMOVE AND ARCHIVE THAT CACHE immediately. If people came there to shoot up once, they'll be back.

[+Mopar]

This may be comparing slightly different apples but this article from the UAB School of Nursing suggests this solution for household sharps such as insulin needles:

We focused on presenting ideas for creative, but simple, containers that can be thrown away safely, Fuqua says. For example, needles can be placed in large prescription bottles once they're empty. Empty detergent bottles, too, can be used, or heavy-duty plastic toothbrush containers. Any hard plastic container with a screw cap will do. Even a box with a balloon stretched over the top could work.

And yes, I did see this in a Google search after my initial post.

Well, instead of the nurses, maybe we should listen to the doctors?

 

Until recently, when Melvyn Sterling, MD, an internist in Orange, Calif., talked to his patients about proper disposal of their used needles and syringes, he told them to put them in something sturdy like a bleach bottle, seal it and throw it in the trash.

 

For many years, that method of disposal was the one touted by most physicians and health educators as the way to prevent needlestick injuries as the waste was processed.

 

With this article

  Links 

 

However, a group of public health professionals, waste disposal company executives and health educators who met last month said that method is no longer working. Instead, they said, the increase of home needle use, combined with a move toward higher and higher recycling goals, has created a public health crisis.

 

"The fact is that nobody is really clear about what the right thing to do is, but we now know it's a huge problem," said T. Stephen Jones, MD, MPH, medical epidemiologist for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, who has been pushing for this issue to be addressed.

 

The bottles full of syringes rarely withstand the pressure of processing. They pop open in the garbage truck, leaving the "pickers," who have to sift through piles of trash hunting for recyclables, at high risk of getting stuck with a needle that may be contaminated with HIV, hepatitis viruses or other bloodborne pathogens.

rest of  American Medical Association article here

[+PandyBat]

I see Mopar and GH's side of the situation-a need for self preservation and a legit concern for those caching behind them. But what of the cachers who are already out for the day and won't see your log until tomorrow? What about little Tommy just riding his bike nearby who doesn't read cache page logs?

The cache owner had no reason to use the tone and language he chose to use, and owes M&G a quick apology, but I share some of his disappointment at their reluctance to take more direct action.

Geesh...some people must be way more paranoid than I am. There are right ways and wrong ways to pick up a needle. Don't pick up the stupid thing BY the needle. Even I trust myself enough to pick one up by the handle and walk a few feet without tripping or sticking myself in order to place it somewhere safer until I could call authorities. (I'm pretty sure I can walk and chew gum at the same time too!) I wouldn't do it barehanded, mind you, but with a stick or a leaf or rubber gloves or something. No way would I have left them there for another unsuspecting cacher to come upon.

 

I've seen hypodermic needles in WalMart parking lots. It's no more the cache hiders fault for placing a cache there than it is your fault for someone placing needles there. Maybe the needles weren't there when he hid the cache. At least you could find something to use to move them to a safer place until the authorities could get there to remove them or wait for them to get there. Don't leave it up to the cache owner to take care of them. Do something....be proactive about it instead of letting someone else do it for you.

[+2qwerqE]

I stand humbly corrected. Thank you, Mopar.

 

What I have a really hard time with is the fact that it's a new cache listing, and the cache owner was made aware of this situation 3 days ago, and has not disabled or archived the cache! Talk about irresponsible!

[+wimseyguy]

Well, instead of the nurses, maybe we should listen to the doctors

Let's add a few economists, we're sure to get a consensus.

At least Dr. Jones admits (and lets it get quoted ) that the professionals can't even reach an agreement on how to solve this problem.

Following up 2q's last post, and considering the response you received from the owner-why hasn't someone pulled the SBA switch at this point?

[+Right Wing Wacko]

Even though the City (or county, or state) claims that the park is not maintained, once notified that there is a danger they are obligated to take appropriate action to remedy the situation. If they do not, they are liable for damages should someone become injured.

 

This action could be as simple as sending someone out to clean up the mess or as drastic as completely closing the park.

[+Mopar]

I agree there are mixed results about even legal needles. Don't forget we are talking about probable illegal drug needles. Laws vary a lot. Some things google turned up. In Seattle, the home base of GC.com, it's illegal to dispose of any needles in the trash, no matter how contained. In 30 states it's a crime to possess a hypodermic needle without a prescription (CT is not one of those states, at least).

 

The cache owner claims to have removed the needles. I don't see a current need for a SBA. I REALLY hope he didn't just toss them in the trash, though.

 

I was intentionally vague about the cache because despite the email and logs, I don't want to trash the hider or the cache. He may not know it since he's pretty new, but there was a previous (now archived) cache about 30ft away. This new one is MUCH better, and makes much better use of a small local park with some cool monuments. While the needles were a turnoff, the overall experience was MUCH better then the old cache. I personally doubt anyone could do a whole lot better with a cache in that park. We both enjoyed the cache itself, but felt compelled to advise other cachers about the hazzards.

[+PandyBat]

We both enjoyed the cache itself, but felt compelled to advise other cachers about the hazzards.

Next time, it might be better to remedy or at least leave the situation safer for the next geocacher than to post something that not very many people are going to see.

[+Mopar]

We both enjoyed the cache itself, but felt compelled to advise other cachers about the hazzards.

Next time, it might be better to remedy or at least leave the situation safer for the next geocacher than to post something that not very many people are going to see.

As far as I'm concerned the most important people did see it.

 

The next cache finders saw it, and kept their young kids at the nearby playground rather then searching for the cache.

 

The cache owner saw it, and took care of the situation. Maybe not in the best way (hence this thread), but he was responsible for his cache and remedied the situation.

[+Imajika]

Something I found online and I think I will post this as a note on the cache page too:

 

Needlestick injuries transmit infectious diseases, especially blood-borne viruses (AIDS, hepatitis B, and hepatitis C). Needlestick injuries have transmitted many other diseases involving viruses, bacteria, fungi, and other microorganisms. The diseases include Blastomycosis, Brucellosis, Cryptococcosis, Diphtheria, Cutaneous gonorrhea, Herpes, Malaria, Mycobacteriosis, Mycoplasma caviae, Rocky Mountain spotted fever, porotrichosis, Staphylococcus aureus, Streptococcus pyogenes, Syphilis, Toxoplasmosis and Tuberculosis.

 

When a needle is found it should be disposed of properly. These items should be placed in a container that is designed to carry the needle safely. If a hypodermic needle is found it should be left alone and handled by people who have the equipment and training to dispose of these items.

______________________________________________________________

 

I work in law enforcement and I asked around today if people should call the PD when they find needles. My department says YES. They would send out a paramedic who can dispose of them properly. They also said to NOT TOUCH THE NEEDLE and just wait for the paramedics to arrive to dispose of the needle properly. I work in a town that has 375,000 people so even large departments like mine would certainly come get those needles. I would imagine that most law enforcement agencies (big and small) would give the same advice.

 

But the real issue here is: WHY would someone hide a cache at a site once they knew needles had been found there??? If it were my cache, I would have gone to the site and called the police so they could get rid of the needles, then I would have archived the cache and moved it elsewhere. Just because you cleaned the needles up this time, doesn't mean they won't show up again sometime.

Edited August 3, 2004 by Imajika

[+PandyBat]

Since when is it the cache owners responsibility to take care of trash that is at their cache location that wasn't there before they placed the cache!?!? What happened to being a responsible citizen and taking care of it yourself instead of leaving it for the next person to take care of? What about other kids or cachers unaware of the situation that came behind you? Have you no concern for them?

 

Funny how people want to gripe about it but not doing anything about it themselves. Using the "Ewww....a hypodermic needle!! I'm not touching that! It might be contaminated!" isn't an excuse for not doing ANYTHING about it and waiting for someone else to remedy the situation. What if the cache owner hadn't be able to go out there and remove them?? They would still be out there if he hadn't been able to go get them. That's pretty sad after three people had already been there and could have done something right away. Stuff like this confirms that I couldn't trust anyone other than myself to keep an eye out for my kids or my dogs.

 

How would you feel to know that your child was walking and playing amongst a few dirty needles and you found out that several people knew about it but didn't do anything about it?

[+Imajika]

Since when is it the cache owners responsibility to take care of trash that is at their cache location that wasn't there before they placed the cache!?!? What happened to being a responsible citizen and taking care of it yourself instead of leaving it for the next person to take care of? What about other kids or cachers unaware of the situation that came behind you? Have you no concern for them?

 

Okay, if it had been me that found those, *I* would have called the police and waited there. I don't want someone getting hurt because the needles were there.

 

BUT since the people that saw the needles DIDN'T call the police/paramedics, if I was the cache owner and once I was made aware of the situation, *I* would have gone to the site and called police myself and disabled/archived the cache.

 

I am not saying that a cache owner has to take care of medical waste just because it is near their cache. I am saying that if no one else would have called the police, I would have gone to the site and called them myself because I believe that is the responsible and safe thing to do.

 

How is that showing no concern?

[+PandyBat]

Since when is it the cache owners responsibility to take care of trash that is at their cache location that wasn't there before they placed the cache!?!? What happened to being a responsible citizen and taking care of it yourself instead of leaving it for the next person to take care of? What about other kids or cachers unaware of the situation that came behind you? Have you no concern for them?

 

Okay, if it had been me that found those, *I* would have called the police and waited there. I don't want someone getting hurt because the needles were there.

 

BUT since the people that saw the needles DIDN'T call the police/paramedics, if I was the cache owner and once I was made aware of the situation, *I* would have gone to the site and called police myself and disabled/archived the cache.

 

I am not saying that a cache owner has to take care of medical waste just because it is near their cache. I am saying that if no one else would have called the police, I would have gone to the site and called them myself because I believe that is the responsible and safe thing to do.

 

How is that showing no concern?

I totally agree.....I was speaking more about all the people that were there and didn't do anything. As a responsible cache owner AND a responsible, concerned citizen, the cache owner did the right thing that the others couldn't seem to muster up the "concern" to do.

[+Team DEMP]

I totally agree.....I was speaking more about all the people that were there and didn't do anything. As a responsible cache owner AND a responsible, concerned citizen, the cache owner did the right thing that the others couldn't seem to muster up the "concern" to do.

I think Mopar & GeoHo did do something. They posted to the caching page that we look at when we go caching. It's important that they did it because there's nothing preventing a needle from showing up there tomorrow and I'd rather no it's a likely possibility since it's happened before. The warning they provided in their posts is a tremendous benefit to other cachers.

 

I myself wouldn't pick up needles to dispose of. If there was someone right around there to contact I might have said something to them, but in many places, I'm only there for caching and might not even know the town I'm in or who to contact. I'm not sure needles on the ground is a 911 emergency either.

 

I think I'd do exactly what Mopar and GeoHo did and I see nothing wrong in what what they did, nor do I feel they should be chastised!

[+2qwerqE]

Since when is it the cache owners responsibility to take care of trash that is at their cache location that wasn't there before they placed the cache!?!?

 

How would you feel to know that your child was walking and playing amongst a few dirty needles and you found out that several people knew about it but didn't do anything about it?

That's not the point I was trying to make. Whether or not it's the cache owner's job to clean it up is moot in this case: S/he did so. How would you feel to know that your child was caching in an area where drug users have been known to shoot up, and the cache was still active? An open invitation to come play amid the medical waste.

 

Since drug users know this place is a safe hide-away to shoot up, they will likely be back. Makes the arguement for calling the cops stronger, in the hopes that they might keep a closer eye on the place for future activity of this type. I still think the cache should be archived, or at least moved.

[+PandyBat]

I totally agree.....I was speaking more about all the people that were there and didn't do anything. As a responsible cache owner AND a responsible, concerned citizen, the cache owner did the right thing that the others couldn't seem to muster up the "concern" to do.

I think Mopar & GeoHo did do something. They posted to the caching page that we look at when we go caching. It's important that they did it because there's nothing preventing a needle from showing up there tomorrow and I'd rather no it's a likely possibility since it's happened before. The warning they provided in their posts is a tremendous benefit to other cachers.

 

I think I'd do exactly what Mopar and GeoHo did and I see nothing wrong in what what they did, nor do I feel they should be chastised!

Well, I'll thank Mopar and GeoHo for being responsible geocachers but as far as being responsible citizens and showing concern for anyone other than geocachers, I'll hold my applause.

[+shunra]

Don't get into discussion with the owner, just post an SBA, and include the picture.

 

The owner will then have to choose whether to remove his cache, or remove the needles or both, or neither, but he cannot shift responsibility on unprepared finders.

 

He can also choose to do nothing. Chances are that his cache will then get muggled.

 

Another possibility is that a local approver would request removal of the cache by the next finder.

 

Even if he deletes the SBA, the approvers will notice it.

[+Mopar]

Well, I'll thank Mopar and GeoHo for being responsible geocachers but as far as being responsible citizens and showing concern for anyone other than geocachers, I'll hold my applause.

And I respect your opinion as much as everyone else's, thank you.

I think I've covered most of this already but....

 

Like others said, I'm sure someone should be notified, but I have no idea who. I don't live there, it was just a quick pull off the highway on the way to other caches.

 

While it may be a park, and close to the road, the cache is NOT in a place anyone but a cacher or apparently a drug user will be going. While it's rated a terrain 1, and you CAN drive a car to within 5ft of the cache (you need to park about 50ft away though), it's down a somewhat steep incline on a little 30ft wide strip of trees between the side road of the park, and the fence for the highway right of way. Not wheelchair accessible, and not somewhere anyone is playing ball or walking a dog.

 

While we felt the need to make sure the cache owner and other finders knew about the situation, I did not feel the situation warranted a 911 call, nor did I have a desire to hang out there for an hour explaining geocaching to police officers while waiting for a hazmat team or paramedic.

 

Do I think the owner has the responsibility to clean up the area? Heck no, although I applaud him for doing it, and we ourselves recently spent an afternoon cleaning up trash around one of our caches that someone had commented on.

I do feel the owner is responsible for his cache, and is responsible for advising people of any potential dangers he knows about. But that's just my opinion. If he didn't know, he knows now. It's his cache and how he chooses to proceed is his decision.

Edited August 2, 2004 by Mopar

[sinistral_leo]

ok ok "YA CAUGHT THE TATER" Let's all bash me like I'm a villain!! I guess Mopar is a biologist because he seems to know that the needles are HIV+...or they're his...?

 

I am just trying to look out for future cachers, and found it hidious for previous cachers to leave this stuff behind.

 

I did take care of it, I used latex gloves, picked up the NON-pointy side (yes there are two sides) put them in a cardboard box and brought them to Griffin hospital where a nurse commended me and promptly put them in a sharps container. So MOPAR before you call me stupid, think about what you did, Yes the cache is still active, as soon as I found out I rectified... you never even made a recommendation to archive it, you even let other cachers attempt to find it.. hee hee, look at the needles, and you call me stupid???? you know what DODGE stands for? (which is a MOPAR, for those who don't know)... Dead On Driveway Grease Everywhere

[+Mopar]

ok ok "YA CAUGHT THE TATER" Let's all bash me like I'm a villain!! I guess Mopar is a biologist because he seems to know that the needles are HIV+...or they're his...?

 

I am just trying to look out for future cachers, and found it hidious for previous cachers to leave this stuff behind.

 

I did take care of it, I used latex gloves, picked up the NON-pointy side (yes there are two sides) put them in a cardboard box and brought them to Griffin hospital where a nurse commended me and promptly put them in a sharps container. So MOPAR before you call me stupid, think about what you did, Yes the cache is still active, as soon as I found out I rectified... you never even made a recommendation to archive it, you even let other cachers attempt to find it.. hee hee, look at the needles, and you call me stupid???? you know what DODGE stands for? (which is a MOPAR, for those who don't know)... Dead On Driveway Grease Everywhere

Nice, I'm practically the only one defending your cache, yet you are STILL bashing me. I didn't think the situation warranted archiving, but since many here do, even you yourself imply it should have been archived, I guess I need to post one.

Edited August 3, 2004 by Mopar

[+Imajika]

ok ok "YA CAUGHT THE TATER" Let's all bash me like I'm a villain!!

I don't think I was 'bashing' you. I only made a comment about if you now know the area has a potential for needles, you may want to seriously consider moving the cache.

 

If I were in that situation, I would be archiving and moving the cache. What if more needles were dumped there and someone got hurt? Personally, I wouldn't want that guilt on my shoulders.

 

I realize you didn't know there were needles in the area when you hid the cache, but now that you know, you may want to consider moving it.

 

The rest of my post was about procedures for reporting needles. It is great that you went to the area and retrieved the needles but, if it happens again, I would recommend calling the police or fire station just to be on the safe side.

[+Cache Viking]

Mentioning the needles in your log or note would be appreciated by me. I generally try to take my kids along and they can get over zelous in their searching. I would rather simply avoid the cache than to take any sort of chance getting poked by one of those things.

 

It also seems to me if this is a reacurring problem the cache should probably be archived and relocated.

[+Mopar]

And since he's since edited his cache log, and deleted mine, here they are:

 

My archived log.

 

His original note:

Log Date: 8/2/2004

I am appalled!!! TWO separate, seasoned geocaching teams saw hypodermic

needles at my cache and did nothing about it except leave a log about how

icky it is and had the audacity to take a PICTURE of the needles!!!!. This

is an outrage! I have lost so much respect. What ever happened to "cache in,

trash out"??? Are they only geocaching for the numbers?? Do they have an

ounce of respect for the earth or for other people for that matter; What if

another geocachers kneeled down there to find my cache and stuck himself in

the leg???  OK OK maybe they didn't want to touch the needles,

understandable. Another responsible option would be to call the police, call

the parks and rec. dept.etc. responsible woodsmen carry first aid kits

(which usually have latex gloves) into the woods with them; get the hint? Do

I need to encrypt this for you so you will understand it?  Geocaching is a

hobby to challenge your tracking abilities and to have fun, but it also

benefits the environment when responsible people pick up litter that they see in the vicinity.

As soon as I checked and read the logs, I drove straight to the cache and

picked up the litter in the surrounding area. So it's OK now, no thanks to a

select couple of geocachers. Lets set the example guys.does a rookie like me

really need to tell you this?

[+IV_Warrior]

Well, I see it's archived now. Probably not a bad idea, as whoever left those needles would likely be back leaving more.

[+SixTen]

Anyone see a dead horse around?...

 

This could and probably will go on forever...or until it is closed by Mopar or a mod...so lets look at what we have and end this...

 

1) Mopar was right for not touching them...no he is not a "biologist"...therefore he was correct in assuming the worst of the needles condition.

 

2) Placing a note on the cache page was also the correct thing to do...as a precaution to future cachers...once the needles were removed, another note, by the owner or cacher who noticed the area was clean, to let people know the area had been cleaned up, would also be appropriate.

 

3) Imajika pretty much summed up what should be done...do not touch them and contact the police dept...they do not need to know there is a cache a foot away...just that there are potentially hazardous materials at X location...let them send out people with proper equipment to dispose of the needles.

 

4) I am a diabetic...so I personally probably would have removed them and placed them in my sharps container...but not everyone has access to one of those (and I would hate to witness the day when a sharps container becomes standard equipment in a cachers backpack)

 

In summary, Your safety first (Do Not Touch), Others safety Next (Contacting the Authorities and Alerting Future Cachers), Resolution in the end (When The Area Is Cleaned Up)...

 

-Six

[sinistral_leo]

YOU ARE DEFENDING MY CACHE... WOW...WHEN??I REMEMBER YOU CALLING ME STUPID. AND WRONG FOR CLEANING IT UP. LOOK MAN, I DON'T WANT TO NOT BE ABLE TO FIND YOUR OR GEO HO'S CACHES OR NOT BE ABLE TO ATTEND EVENTS FOR FEAR OF A CONFRONTATION...I WAS JUST MAD THAT PEOPLE MADE REFERENCE TO THE NEEDLES AND DID NOTHING, MAYBE I AM MORE OF A "GET IT DONE" TYPE OF GUY, I CLEANED IT AND DIDN'T GET HURT... I DON'T GET OUT OF WORK TILL 5:00 AND DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF INTERENT AT WORK.SO I COULDN'T ARCHIVE TIL NOW. BUT ITS DONE, TIME TO MOVE ON, I'LL BUY YOU A BEER SOMETIME...COOL?

Edited August 3, 2004 by sinistral_leo

[+Imajika]

Wow! His archive note was a bit......hot headed:

 

DUE TO DRUG USERS AND IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE, THIS CACHE WILL BE MOVED TO A PLACE WHERE HOPEFULLY ONLY RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE CAN FIND IT. SORRY GRANDFATHER. ALL OF THE HARD WORK YOU DID TO MAKE THIS LAND FREE IS SLOWLY ERODING BY PEOPLE OF OUR OWN COMMUNITY. WE CAN'T EVEN PLAY WHERE WE WANT BECAUSE OF THESE NATIVE TERRORISTS! BUT TRY TO FIGHT IT AND THE WHOLE WORLD BICKERS AT YOU.

 

Man, calm down, go re-hide your cache and take a break. Don't get so upset about it. Please, calm down. Everything will be okay. There is no need to turn this into a fight or be worried about going to event caches and such. It was just too bad that those needles had to be there and ruin the work you did on your cache. But if you move it, people will come find it, I swear. I understand that you are upset because you worked hard on the cache but safety really should come first.

 

Everyone learned something today. Now, people will be more careful in the future and people will know what to do if they do find needles at a cache.

Edited August 3, 2004 by Imajika

[sinistral_leo]

Imajika, did you even read the thread??? shows over, get off your power trip and go find a cache or something. I'm trying to make ammence with mopar.

[+Imajika]

Imajika, did you even read the thread??? shows over, get off your power trip and go find a cache or something. I'm trying to make ammence with mopar.

Power trip? :o :P

 

I was just trying to say that I understand you were upset and it will all be all right. I was actually sympathizing with you because I see you put a lot of work into the cache. But in the big scheme of geocaching, it will all work out in the end and people learned something new today (which is a good thing).

 

And now: Imajika, leader of the Mighty Team Yatta, is signing off. My 'power trip' is over! :P :D

[+Mopar]

YOU ARE DEFENDING MY CACHE... WOW...WHEN??I REMEMBER YOU CALLING ME STUPID. AND WRONG FOR CLEANING IT UP. LOOK MAN, I DON'T WANT TO NOT BE ABLE TO FIND YOUR OR GEO HO'S CACHES OR NOT BE ABLE TO ATTEND EVENTS FOR FEAR OF A CONFRONTATION...I WAS JUST MAD THAT PEOPLE MADE REFERENCE TO THE NEEDLES AND DID NOTHING, MAYBE I AM MORE OF A "GET IT DONE" TYPE OF GUY, I CLEANED IT AND DIDN'T GET HURT... I DON'T GET OUT OF WORK TILL 5:00 AND DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF INTERENT AT WORK.SO I COULDN'T ARCHIVE TIL NOW. BUT ITS DONE, TIME TO MOVE ON, I'LL BUY TO A BEER SOMETIME...COOL?

Did you actually read this thread? There were many people saying the cache should be archived. These were my responses:

 

The cache owner claims to have removed the needles. I don't see a current need for a SBA.

 

I was intentionally vague about the cache because despite the email and logs, I don't want to trash the hider or the cache. He may not know it since he's pretty new, but there was a previous (now archived) cache about 30ft away. This new one is MUCH better, and makes much better use of a small local park with some cool monuments. While the needles were a turnoff, the overall experience was MUCH better then the old cache. I personally doubt anyone could do a whole lot better with a cache in that park. We both enjoyed the cache itself, but felt compelled to advise other cachers about the hazzards.

 

As far as I'm concerned the most important people did see it.

 

The next cache finders saw it, and kept their young kids at the nearby playground rather then searching for the cache.

 

The cache owner saw it, and took care of the situation. Maybe not in the best way (hence this thread), but he was responsible for his cache and remedied the situation.

 

Do I think the owner has the responsibility to clean up the area? Heck no, although I applaud him for doing it, and we ourselves recently spent an afternoon cleaning up trash around one of our caches that someone had commented on.

I do feel the owner is responsible for his cache, and is responsible for advising people of any potential dangers he knows about. But that's just my opinion. If he didn't know, he knows now. It's his cache and how he chooses to proceed is his decision.

 

As for the beer, come to the next Wings and Beer night. The pitchers are cold, and the wings are hot. At the end of the night, toss in what you think you ate and drank. Good enough for me.

 

As far as this thread goes, I'll ask it get moved to the CITO forum, where it's more on topic, and hopefully a valid discussion of the pros and cons when this situation arises again.

[sinistral_leo]

UMMMM. S.B.A?? "NEED INPUT"(JOHNNY 5, SHORT CURCUIT 1985) I'm new remember. I really like geocaching and don't want to turn it into a bad experience. well the "orange you glad" was almost bad, but that was just cause I couldn't find it I'm sorry for blowing up.... sinistral_leo signing out

[sinistral_leo]

ooohhhh.. possibly"should be archived"???

[+Mopar]

SBA = Should Be Archived.

 

Don't worry..... caching is like sex, even "bad" geocaching is still pretty darn good!

[+=BB=]

Well, instead of the nurses, maybe we should listen to the doctors?

Not to start a flame war but ...

 

Nurses deal with far more "sharps" than your average doctor on a daily basis. I would say that they are more experienced in the field of use + disposal than the doctors. Consider who does the clean up when a doctor is finished with the exam/surgery.

 

Oh, and for what it's worth .. I am currently in a pre-med program so I am not biased

 

To all others: Handling a needle is less dangerous than handling a knife. Just use common sense and don't use your fingers as pin cushions to pick them up. You have to be entirely inept to mess this one up - and chances are that if you are inept, you know already and will steer clear.

 

As mentioned, improvised "sharp containers" can be used and the sharps can be disposed of by calling the local city health department.

[+mtn-man]

I'm going to move this one to the CITO area.