Signing The Log For Someone Else

July 22, 2004

If you put the pen to the logbook, you can claim credit for the find. Seems pretty straightforward.

How about these other 'grey area' scenarios, what do you think? Do they merit a smiley? Genders aren't significant here, the actors could be of either persuasion.

1) Captain of the power boat that brought a group of cachers to the rocky shore of a remote island on a lake. The group swims in to find the cache. Captain remains with the boat. The group signs the logbook for the captain as a courtesy. Captain logs a smiley.

2) Big Jim's with a group on a power boat, not able to get on and off the boat in the depth of water it's in. Group swims and hikes a tenth mile to the cache. Big Jim stays with the boat. Someone in the group signs the log for him. Big Jim logs a smiley.

3) Judy's shaking, standing on a high cliff, wondering how she's going to get down to the cache, which she can see, without killing herself in the fall. She's terrified of heights. A muggle happens by, Judy asks if he'll go get the cache for her. Muggle mountain-goats down, grabs the cache, brings it up, no fear. Judy signs it, he takes it back down and re-hides it. Judy logs a smiley.

4) Guy's with a group (not part of a 'team') of cache finders. The cache is across a raging stream in a ravine. Guy's afraid of heights and water and just about everything else, and decides not to cross. Guy's close enough, maybe 25-50 feet, to toss swag to the other cachers (who crossed the ravine) holding the book, but he doesn't actually touch the book himself, and they don't want to throw it. They sign for him. Guy claims the smiley.

5) Biff's standing at the bottom of a tall rock wall, he is unable or unwilling to climb the rock. Cache is on top of the rock. Another cacher climbs up to get the cache and hands the log book down to Biff, who signs it and throws it back up. Biff claims a smiley.

6) Jake's sitting in his SUV, has twisted his foot or something, can't walk the quarter-mile uphill to the cache site. Other cachers in his group go get the container and bring it down off the hill for him to root through, trade swag, and sign, then they hike the container back to the top of the hill for him. He claims a find.

7) Sherman hates multicaches. He convinces his buddy Chuck to give him the final coords for one of the most heinous multis in his area. It has something like 15 stages, each a level three to five in difficulty. Sherman goes to the final coordinates and signs the log. He logs a smiley.

8) Big Moe hates puzzles. He buys the solution to all the puzzle caches in his town from an enterprising seller on eBay. He goes to the final coordinates for all the puzzle caches in town and signs their logbooks. He logs smileys for each one.

9) Garvas throws a bowling event cache. Quentin shows up and meets a couple of the bowlers outside in the parking lot as the event is breaking up, but he didn't go in, he didn't bowl, he didn't trade travel bugs or talk caching, he didn't drink a beverage or share in the camaraderie. Most of the cachers didn't even see him or know he was there. He goes home and logs a smiley for the event.

Would love to hear your comments on these scenarios. Do they deserve the smiley or not, and why?

July 22, 2004

Long as I'm happy with what I'm doing, I don't care what others do here. Whatever floats their boat.

8.4k · July 22, 2004

#8 Is a find IMO. He found the cache and signed the log. Puzzle be damned.

I have no opinion on the others as it makes no difference to me. I worry about my own stats and no one else's.

IMHO Hey, it's your lie. Make it big as you want.

July 22, 2004

Who really cares? They play their game, I play mine. If claiming credit for caches they didn't really find is their's, so be it. I have fun playing my game just the same.

38.2k · July 22, 2004

Here are my thoughts:

1-No find. Captain didn't even hunt the cache.

2-No find. Big Jim didn't participate in the hunt.

3-Find. Judy got to the cache site found it and signed the log. Does it matter if it was her hubby, a fellow geocacher, or a stranger who retreived it for her?

4-No find. Not as cut and dried though. I think some people can argue that this is a find and I could see their reasoning, but I personally would not log it.

5-Find. Biff was part of the team and signed the log.

6-No find. He didn't even participate in the hunt. Whats the difference whether he's sitting in an SUV a 1/4 mile away or in his living room 10 miles away? If I bring a cache log to his house,is that a find? Nope. Same for the car.

7-Find. He found the cache and signed the log. His method was on the cheesy side though. Not the kind of person I'd want to be my friend.

8-Find. See #7

9-Find. He went to the event and met a few geocachers. Doesn't matter that he was late

and didn't fully participate.

July 22, 2004

I'm with the previous posters. I know that I have done everything legit in finding my finds. How others do theirs is up to them. If I was a cache owner and found out about it, I might be inclined to delete some logs, however.

--RuffRidr

July 22, 2004

If you put the pen to the logbook, you can claim credit for the find. Seems pretty straightforward.
How about these other 'grey area' scenarios, what do you think? Do they merit a smiley? Genders aren't significant here, the actors could be of either persuasion.

Personal opinions here, your mileage may vary :

1) Captain's a weasel. No smiley for you.

2) Big Jim's a weasel. Having someone else sign the logsheet for you ain't cool. No smiley for you.

3) This is the nicest Muggle Judy's ever met, I'll wager! Still a little high on my cheese-o-meter. But she signed it. This one's a push.

4) Borderline. But I vote 'no smiley' since he personally didn't sign it.

5) Borderline. This time I vote 'smiley' for Biff. I'm not thrilled with it though.

6) I'm not sure how I feel about this one yet.

7) and 8) Unethical as Hell, and completely impossible to police. Yet they fully complied with finding the cache and signing the log regardless of how they did it.

They just used a different (sleazy) means of solving the puzzle or multi.

9) Quentin's an asocial freak, and most events I've been to involve signing some kind of sign-in sheet or logbook anyway. But he attended, and since SOMEONE saw him there, I guess he gets the smiley

Good scenarios with no easy answers.

--Dave, The Cow Spots

Edited July 22, 2004 by The Cow Spots

1.5k · July 22, 2004

From a purely technical point, I would say that Brinasnat is 100% correct, however, when you get right down to it, who cares? I play my game, everyone else can play their games as they see fit!

3.8k · July 22, 2004

Although some of the scenarios offered seem lame, some of them seem to be valid (I can really relate with Judy), in the same sense as team caching is valid.

There have been times (not often) that I have been at a cache site and witnessed people "signing" the log for others that were also present. Personally, it doesn't matter to me. I suppose it's the same thing as not signing the log, but who cares?

1.1k · July 22, 2004

Everyone plays their game their own way, and has their own criterias for logging a find or not. If the captain of the boat wants to log a find, I certainly have no problem with it and really neither should anyone else. Afterall it's just a game that we all enjoy, and we all make it enjoyable in different ways. If someone loses sleep because someone plays the game differently and is bothered by someone else's smiley, then they really need to get a life.

7.3k · July 22, 2004

There's been a rash of puzzle caches in my area recently that involve math or codes. There's no way in the world that I would be able to do most of them by myself. But the real cache is the physical cache, IMHO. My wonderful math super-genious brother solved the puzzles for me, and I found the physical cache myself. I think that is all that matters. I make sure and give my brother the credit for the puzzle in the log, though.

July 22, 2004

Biff & Jake are both weenies and need to suck it up and deal. Quentin is that creep ya mama always warned ya about. Judy was just trying to score a hot date, but she didn't include that in her story. The boat captain could care less about his smiley, he just made a load off of these people chartering his boat for this cache hunt. Jim is a parasite. Big Moe needs a girlfriend to spend that money elsewhere for him. Sherman is actually Tony Soprano and Guy, well, at least Guy admitted his fear.

4.7k · July 22, 2004

these are the only ones i engage in:

1) nancy is part of a hunting team. she signs the log for the whole group, acting as recording secretary. anybody who stayed in the car or did not come to the container does not get signed for.

2)pat and his partner chris divide the labor. pat retrieves the container from trees and ledges, chris retrieves it from icky places. one of them signs for both. in cold weather this means only one of them has to take the gloves off.

3) susan caches from a wheelchair. they get to the search area. her bipedal cache companions look where she directs them to look. "stand there. look in that log. can you see it from there? move over there. climb that thing. look under that rock." if the bipedal companions can find the cache using only susan's direction, they retrieve it for her and she signs the log. the companions do not just go in and grab it for her.

as for the boat and captain, what if the cache is on a ledge above the boat, and there's no place to dock? somebody has to stay with the boat.

no fair to send somebody else to swim to an island for you and bring it back and forth so you can sign.

what if you're hunting a cache that requires belay? does the belayer get to claim found? i think they do.

July 22, 2004

I was in the middle of my reply and then started reading briansnat's reply. I'll ditto EXACTLY what HE said. Thanks, briansnat for saving me some work.

24.7k · July 22, 2004

Two views.

Hard Core Tournament Rules. You are at the cache, your name goes in the log, it's a find.

Casual Rules. Whatever floats your boat so long as your name gets in the log, or the owner agrees it's a find.

2.5k · July 22, 2004

Here's what I think... If the reason you're not at the cache container is something like you have to stay with the boat or something along those lines, then why not sign that person's name?

If your foot hurts/arm hurts/skin itches/poison ivy's back/etc... Suck it up or go back when you're able. The only time I'm okay with staying in a car and having someone hand it to you is if you're doing a park and grab with a bunch of people.. Why should twelve people get out of the car to run to the light pole?

As for the ones where someone's terrified of where they are... that's different... If you're close enough to the cache, though, that you see it, who cares who picks up the container? That would be like saying fred, jo and pete all went caching and pete found the container and so jo and fred can't log it because pete pulled it out of the weeds.

3.9k · July 22, 2004

1) I'm gonna stray away from the pack on this one. The rest of the team ain't getting the cache without the captain and his boat. He may not have actually hunted for the cache but he was a significant part of them finding it. Captain gets the smiley.

2) Not much of a difference from part one assuming this cache is also on an island. Big Jim gets the smiley.

3) Sorry Judy. The hider wants you to climb down and get it, that's the point. No smiley.

4) No find here. IMO, making it across the raging stream is the challenge of this particular hide. No smiley. **

5) This to me is the similar to # 4. The challenge here is to climb the wall. If the cache was meant to be that easy the hider would have hid it at the bottom of the wall.

6) I feel bad for Jake. If this was my cache I wouldn't argue with the smiley.

7) Lamo. If the final part is 100 feet from a road and an easy find then screw that! No smiley! Go back and find the other legs of the cache.

8) Nope. The hider went through the trouble of putting together a challenging puzzle. If he wanted it to be easy he would have made it a guardrail micro.

9) This guy's a cheeseball but he showed up witch is all that's required to grab a smiley. It's a find.

**Just this weekend, I had a cache hidden for an event where you had to go into a shallow river to retrieve the cache. I went with a few people as they went and hunted for it because I figured it would be fun to watch (and it was). Anyway, two other cachers stood on the shore line and asked if they were close enough. I looked at them all nice and dry, then I looked at myself and the five cachers that were knee deep in the river and said no. They decided to join us after all and I think they were happy they did. Either that or they hate me.

edited to say: I stand by my opinion but it is just a game. I would not delete a log unless I knew that the person was in their living room when their daughter or whoever logged there name in a log book 200 miles away.

Edited July 22, 2004 by JMBella

7.3k · July 22, 2004

8) Nope. The hider went through the trouble of putting together a challenging puzzle. If he wanted it to be easy he would have made it a guardrail micro.

Funny. Cause I just did a puzzle cache (the only one that I actually puzzled pretty much by myself), and then it DID turn out to be a gaurdrail micro!

July 23, 2004

It seems like there are a few different definitions of what a find is. For me, you have to see the cache, its hiding place and have someone in the group throw your name or handle into the log. As despicable as the puzzle and multi cheater was, he still found the cache.

2.4k · July 23, 2004

1) I'm gonna stray away from the pack on this one. The rest of the team ain't getting the cache without the captain and his boat. He may not have actually hunted for the cache but he was a significant part of them finding it. Captain gets the smiley.
2) Not much of a difference from part one assuming this cache is also on an island. Big Jim gets the smiley.

3) Sorry Judy. The hider wants you to climb down and get it, that's the point. No smiley.

**Just this weekend, I had a cache hidden for an event where you had to go into a shallow river to retrieve the cache. I went with a few people as they went and hunted for it because I figured it would be fun to watch (and it was). Anyway, two other cachers stood on the shore line and asked if they were close enough. I looked at them all nice and dry, then I looked at myself and the five cachers that were knee deep in the river and said no. They decided to join us after all and I think they were happy they did. Either that or they hate me.

OK, I just don't understand the reasoning here. Judy actually finds the cache, just has someone else hand it to her, so she can sign the log, and DOESN'T get credit for the find, but "the captain" and "Big Jim" don't even get out of the boat, let along actually find the cache, or sign the log, but they DO get credit for the finds? 'Bella what am I missing here? How are the Captain and Big Jim different than those cachers at your cache who asked from shore if they were "close enough"?

2.3k · July 23, 2004

What amazes me are team cachers who have hundreds of finds, but hardly any on their own....and almost all the finds are no more than difficulty 2s.

I am planning a 5,5 cache, physically demanding and requiring special equipment. The first sentence on the cache description page will be that every finder must physically do all stages to claim a find.

1.2k · July 23, 2004

If you put the pen to the logbook, you can claim credit for the find. Seems pretty straightforward.
How about these other 'grey area' scenarios, what do you think? Do they merit a smiley? Genders aren't significant here, the actors could be of either persuasion.

1) Captain of the power boat that brought a group of cachers to the rocky shore of a remote island on a lake. The group swims in to find the cache. Captain remains with the boat. The group signs the logbook for the captain as a courtesy. Captain logs a smiley.

2) Big Jim's with a group on a power boat, not able to get on and off the boat in the depth of water it's in. Group swims and hikes a tenth mile to the cache. Big Jim stays with the boat. Someone in the group signs the log for him. Big Jim logs a smiley.

3) Judy's shaking, standing on a high cliff, wondering how she's going to get down to the cache, which she can see, without killing herself in the fall. She's terrified of heights. A muggle happens by, Judy asks if he'll go get the cache for her. Muggle mountain-goats down, grabs the cache, brings it up, no fear. Judy signs it, he takes it back down and re-hides it. Judy logs a smiley.

4) Guy's with a group (not part of a 'team') of cache finders. The cache is across a raging stream in a ravine. Guy's afraid of heights and water and just about everything else, and decides not to cross. Guy's close enough, maybe 25-50 feet, to toss swag to the other cachers (who crossed the ravine) holding the book, but he doesn't actually touch the book himself, and they don't want to throw it. They sign for him. Guy claims the smiley.

5) Biff's standing at the bottom of a tall rock wall, he is unable or unwilling to climb the rock. Cache is on top of the rock. Another cacher climbs up to get the cache and hands the log book down to Biff, who signs it and throws it back up. Biff claims a smiley.

6) Jake's sitting in his SUV, has twisted his foot or something, can't walk the quarter-mile uphill to the cache site. Other cachers in his group go get the container and bring it down off the hill for him to root through, trade swag, and sign, then they hike the container back to the top of the hill for him. He claims a find.

7) Sherman hates multicaches. He convinces his buddy Chuck to give him the final coords for one of the most heinous multis in his area. It has something like 15 stages, each a level three to five in difficulty. Sherman goes to the final coordinates and signs the log. He logs a smiley.

8) Big Moe hates puzzles. He buys the solution to all the puzzle caches in his town from an enterprising seller on eBay. He goes to the final coordinates for all the puzzle caches in town and signs their logbooks. He logs smileys for each one.

9) Garvas throws a bowling event cache. Quentin shows up and meets a couple of the bowlers outside in the parking lot as the event is breaking up, but he didn't go in, he didn't bowl, he didn't trade travel bugs or talk caching, he didn't drink a beverage or share in the camaraderie. Most of the cachers didn't even see him or know he was there. He goes home and logs a smiley for the event.

Would love to hear your comments on these scenarios. Do they deserve the smiley or not, and why?

Generally, I couldn't care less. I sure hope they'd write a good log, though

3.9k · July 23, 2004

1) I'm gonna stray away from the pack on this one. The rest of the team ain't getting the cache without the captain and his boat. He may not have actually hunted for the cache but he was a significant part of them finding it. Captain gets the smiley.
2) Not much of a difference from part one assuming this cache is also on an island. Big Jim gets the smiley.

3) Sorry Judy. The hider wants you to climb down and get it, that's the point. No smiley.

**Just this weekend, I had a cache hidden for an event where you had to go into a shallow river to retrieve the cache. I went with a few people as they went and hunted for it because I figured it would be fun to watch (and it was). Anyway, two other cachers stood on the shore line and asked if they were close enough. I looked at them all nice and dry, then I looked at myself and the five cachers that were knee deep in the river and said no. They decided to join us after all and I think they were happy they did. Either that or they hate me.

OK, I just don't understand the reasoning here. Judy actually finds the cache, just has someone else hand it to her, so she can sign the log, and DOESN'T get credit for the find, but "the captain" and "Big Jim" don't even get out of the boat, let along actually find the cache, or sign the log, but they DO get credit for the finds? 'Bella what am I missing here? How are the Captain and Big Jim different than those cachers at your cache who asked from shore if they were "close enough"?

I know where you're coming from and what you're saying makes perfect sense. Let me try and explain how I'm looking at it.

Cache A: Nice easy find in a tree stump 10 feet off the trail covered by parallel sticks and who knows maybe a neon sign that says "Cache is Here". The only challenge for this cache is that it is located on a remote Island and the ONLY way to get there is by boat. Now, hasn't the captain of the boat done the "hard" part by getting his team to the cache site? Yet he can't claim a find because there is no way for him to dock or anchor his boat for whatever reason?

Cache B: Hidden 40 feet up a rock wall. It's a big yellow ammo box that can be seen from 300 feet away. The point here is that the cache hunter has to climb the wall to "find" the cache. Even though to actually find it all you have to do is look up. A rock climber happens to be repelling down the wall and brings the cache to her. I'm saying this: If it was my cache I would be disappointed because I wanted people to have to climb the wall otherwise, I would have just hidden it at the base of the wall. Not all caches are for everyone. If you don't have the ability or expertise to climb the wall, this cache is not for you.

Does that make any sense? Look, I know I have a tendency to look at things a little sideways but hey, that shouldn't surprise anyone. I'm not saying that if it was real life I would deny Judy a find in that situation, I'm just saying I wouldn't be satisfied with that kind of find.

The difference between the captain, big Jim and the cachers who asked if they were close enough? Again, the hard part or the point of the cache on the island is that you had to get to the island to find the cache. The captain and big Jim did that. The hard part of my cache is that you need to go IN the river to find it. The two cachers stood 200 feet away from the final cache location on dry ground and asked if they were close enough. I didn't think it was fair to the cachers that were knee deep in water to give them the same find.

Half way through this post it occurred to me that this all seems kind of silly. I'm debating the semantics of a hypothetical situation with I guy I had convinced this past weekend that I was relatively sane.

2.4k · July 23, 2004

Half way through this post it occurred to me that this all seems kind of silly. I'm debating the semantics of a hypothetical situation with I guy I had convinced this past weekend that I was relatively sane.

Well, for what it's worth, I'm convinced you're at least as sane as I am.........but, of course, I did fight Long Island traffic, as well as make the wife drive through Manhattan on a Saturday night, after I worked a 60 hour week, to get to a geocaching picnic, 228 miles from home, as the crow flies.........some would question my sanity

3.5k · July 23, 2004

I'm not sure to how comment on all 27 scenarios , but I think 3, 5, and 6 are not smilies. "Not all caches are for everyone, but there's a cache for every cacher."

I think Paddy Yenar can up with that line, but Markwell me if you like.

Edited July 23, 2004 by 9Key

1.6k · July 23, 2004

If they were MY caches, I would leave all the smilies alone. I will not leave smilies for "I was there but the cache wasn't, so I'm claiming it as a virt" and two days later I check on the cache and it hasn't been touched.

If they were my hunts (CR and I agreed to never go caching without the other when we first started), we would:

1) CR would stay and I would log it for US.

2) CR would stay and I would log it for us.

-can you tell who doesn't swim?

3) We would use the rope that CR always has on his pack. I am afraid of heights, but CR would talk me through it so we could both have the adventure. Judy should have read the cache page and came prepared.

4) CR would go across and sign for us both. I have waded knee-deep in ice cold water when the air was 25 deg F to aviod boulder hopping. CR was like a d@ng mountain goat!

5) Probably would have skipped this one or figured a way to circle to the top and used the rope to go down. (Don't have the gear to go up.)

6) CR has napped in the car while I hiked as far as 2 miles and signed for us. Two-way handhelds do come in handy.

7) We just wouldn't do that! And if someone bragged about giving the coords to the final on Sissy's Snarky Walk #1, I would kidnap him and make him cut my grass as an apology .

8) See above.

9) What can I say, CR always makes us late! :huh:

July 24, 2004

When I cache with my one of my friends he signs the cache cause I have bad handwritting but I still get to the cache!

4.5k · July 24, 2004

1. What if your caching friend was in a wheelchair. Would you deny the point cause he waitd at shore?

2. What if the guy used the "hint" or other "spoilers". Should the "no hint" guy get 1 1/2 points?

3. I set up a multiple where a clue hints were given to wheelchair and people who just couldn't do the hiking poriton (the cache included a lot of driving as wel). Should the cache be unavailable to the handicapped guy?

4. A guy got the clues from the webpage on a multiple puzzlke type and skipped the first couple of legs? SHould he be denied?

5. The guy took a chance and went to the last leg skipping the first 3 legs of a multiple puzzle type and and found it "by chance". Should he be denied?

You can have kinds of scenarios but it pretty much boilers down to what the finder feels is correct for him. I've never removed a find someone's posted. Life's too short

Alan

July 24, 2004

Good scenarios, but rather than try to answer to all/any of them, let me just tell a bit about how I do it.

I introduced a friend to caching. On one of our early trips we ended up in a residential neighborhood with mostly apt buildings. I really don't like these types of hunts so my friend went out on her own, using the GPSr for the first time all by herself. She went around a corner and I don't even know exactly where she retrieved the cache from. She brought it back to the car and we traded trinkets. I signed the log.....but only for HER. I indicated clearly in the log that she found the cache by herself and I wasn't claiming it as a find. I did not log it online.

With same friend, we hunted a cache and came up empty handed. We went to dinner with her niece and niece's hubby. We talked them into coming back to the cache sight with us to help hunt. It took a bit of time, but eventually niece found it in a place I NEVER would have looked.

Again, it was me who signed the log book for us (I was the "senior" cacher) but I did NOT log it online because if I had been there on my own I know darn well that I would never have found it.

So, that's the way I do it and I sleep with a clear conscience.

3.9k · July 25, 2004

Again, it was me who signed the log book for us (I was the "senior" cacher) but I did NOT log it online because if I had been there on my own I know darn well that I would never have found it.

But you recruited a team to help you locate it. Team effort, team find, the whole team gets a smiley. IMO You can log that one with a clear conscience.

1.5k · July 25, 2004

1) Captain of the power boat that brought a group of cachers to the rocky shore of a remote island on a lake. The group swims in to find the cache. Captain remains with the boat. The group signs the logbook for the captain as a courtesy. Captain logs a smiley.

If I were the captain I would not claim a find. I would drop anchor and head in with the rest of the group :lol: After all, Big Jim is staying behind to watch the boat :lol:

2) Big Jim's with a group on a power boat, not able to get on and off the boat in the depth of water it's in. Group swims and hikes a tenth mile to the cache. Big Jim stays with the boat. Someone in the group signs the log for him. Big Jim logs a smiley.

If I can't get to the cache (and there are plenty that I can't get at) then I won't log a find.

3) Judy's shaking, standing on a high cliff, wondering how she's going to get down to the cache, which she can see, without killing herself in the fall. She's terrified of heights. A muggle happens by, Judy asks if he'll go get the cache for her. Muggle mountain-goats down, grabs the cache, brings it up, no fear. Judy signs it, he takes it back down and re-hides it. Judy logs a smiley.

Been there, done that, felt a little guilty but not a lot. I actually did hold the cache in my hands.

4) Guy's with a group (not part of a 'team') of cache finders. The cache is across a raging stream in a ravine. Guy's afraid of heights and water and just about everything else, and decides not to cross. Guy's close enough, maybe 25-50 feet, to toss swag to the other cachers (who crossed the ravine) holding the book, but he doesn't actually touch the book himself, and they don't want to throw it. They sign for him. Guy claims the smiley.

Nope, I wouldn't claim it. Most of the people I cache with wouldn't sign for me either. I didn't get there.

5) Biff's standing at the bottom of a tall rock wall, he is unable or unwilling to climb the rock. Cache is on top of the rock. Another cacher climbs up to get the cache and hands the log book down to Biff, who signs it and throws it back up. Biff claims a smiley.

Been there, done that, signed the log, got the smiley

6) Jake's sitting in his SUV, has twisted his foot or something, can't walk the quarter-mile uphill to the cache site. Other cachers in his group go get the container and bring it down off the hill for him to root through, trade swag, and sign, then they hike the container back to the top of the hill for him. He claims a find.

Been there, done that, didn't sign the log, didn't claim a smiley

7) Sherman hates multicaches. He convinces his buddy Chuck to give him the final coords for one of the most heinous multis in his area. It has something like 15 stages, each a level three to five in difficulty. Sherman goes to the final coordinates and signs the log. He logs a smiley.

CHEATER! :blink:

8) Big Moe hates puzzles. He buys the solution to all the puzzle caches in his town from an enterprising seller on eBay. He goes to the final coordinates for all the puzzle caches in town and signs their logbooks. He logs smileys for each one.

Hmmmm. I've had help with puzzles before, but buying the solution on Ebay crosses the line. Nope.... cheater

9) Garvas throws a bowling event cache. Quentin shows up and meets a couple of the bowlers outside in the parking lot as the event is breaking up, but he didn't go in, he didn't bowl, he didn't trade travel bugs or talk caching, he didn't drink a beverage or share in the camaraderie. Most of the cachers didn't even see him or know he was there. He goes home and logs a smiley for the event.

He was there, he gets the smiley. He really should have gone inside but.....

Edited July 25, 2004 by Right Wing Wacko

1.2k · July 25, 2004

I've checked eBay 3 times...

Where can I find that #@$! puzzle answers book! :blink:

Ed

July 25, 2004

I say finds for 3 and 5. I really don't care about number 9 because I personally don't log events as finds. But thats just me.

5.3k · July 27, 2004

1) No, he should have tied to boat up

2) If the cache was listed as a 4 or 5 No. he should have known better, if it was listed as a 1,2 or 3 yes, the discriptions was bogus.

3)Yes

4) See number 2 above

5) See number 2 above

6) Yes

7) No way, if you don't like Multis don't do'em

8) No way, don't like puzzle caches don't do'em

9) No he did not really participate in the way it was intended.

July 27, 2004

- As the guy searching caches I only log a smily if I touch the logbook. And yes: eventcaches have logbooks in Germany.

- As the owner of a cache I'm fine with a smily as long as the cache is checked and ok. A smily is states that you can go for the cache.

July 28, 2004

From my personal experience.

Scenario 1

Mendy and I take 3 kids out to a cache hunt. The youngest is too little to go through briars and wants to play at the playground at the bottom of the hill.

I take the two older kids and we find the cache. I sign the log for both her and myself. Why? Because I couldn't have made it to the cache without Mendy watching the youngest child.

Scenario 2

The first part of a multi requires crossing a lake to get to an island. I don't own a boat, so I pay $10 for a couple boys fishing to take me over to the island and back. I find the cache and sign the log

Scenario 3

The cache is requires professional rock climbing up several hundred feet. They offer guides. I am going to pay somebody to climb up there, lower the ammo box on a rope. I will then sign the log. Why? The description doesn't say I HAVE to climb the rocks.

Just my 2 cents

7.2k · July 28, 2004

Mike,

1. If you cached as a team I'd agree. But I see that you guys log seperately and don't always cache together, so I'd have to disagree. Reason? If you go off caching by yourself, do you log her name because she stayed to watch the kids?

2. Yep. A good way a hydro can be done.

3. If you want to do it that way, than by all means. Not in the spirit of the hunt though. Would you hire someone to hike up a hill to find the caches. How about just going out, finding caches, bringing them to you to sign, and then putting them back? If so, then why bother? Yeah, I know there is someone who has kids go out and find the caches for her, bring her the logs for her to sign, and then returns the logs to the caches. Not in the spirit of the game if you ask me.

My point is, if we can't do it, then it's just not going to get done. We don't hire people to do it for us.

July 28, 2004

I have learned that my opinions to/of the "average joe" don't matter. :laughing:

People will play games their own way either by the rules or cheat, like it or not. The same goes with real life matters.

I, for one, have kept, do keep and will always keep my nose to the grindstone. (something to do with "Karma" and it's threefold rule.) :unsure:

I can look my family in the eye with a smile, knowing that I play by the rules.

2.3k · July 28, 2004

1) Captain of the power boat that brought a group of cachers to the rocky shore of a remote island on a lake. The group swims in to find the cache. Captain remains with the boat. The group signs the logbook for the captain as a courtesy. Captain logs a smiley. NOT A FIND

2) Big Jim's with a group on a power boat, not able to get on and off the boat in the depth of water it's in. Group swims and hikes a tenth mile to the cache. Big Jim stays with the boat. Someone in the group signs the log for him. Big Jim logs a smiley. NOT A FIND

3) Judy's shaking, standing on a high cliff, wondering how she's going to get down to the cache, which she can see, without killing herself in the fall. She's terrified of heights. A muggle happens by, Judy asks if he'll go get the cache for her. Muggle mountain-goats down, grabs the cache, brings it up, no fear. Judy signs it, he takes it back down and re-hides it. Judy logs a smiley. OKAY

4) Guy's with a group (not part of a 'team') of cache finders. The cache is across a raging stream in a ravine. Guy's afraid of heights and water and just about everything else, and decides not to cross. Guy's close enough, maybe 25-50 feet, to toss swag to the other cachers (who crossed the ravine) holding the book, but he doesn't actually touch the book himself, and they don't want to throw it. They sign for him. Guy claims the smiley. NOT A FIND

5) Biff's standing at the bottom of a tall rock wall, he is unable or unwilling to climb the rock. Cache is on top of the rock. Another cacher climbs up to get the cache and hands the log book down to Biff, who signs it and throws it back up. Biff claims a smiley. OKAY

6) Jake's sitting in his SUV, has twisted his foot or something, can't walk the quarter-mile uphill to the cache site. Other cachers in his group go get the container and bring it down off the hill for him to root through, trade swag, and sign, then they hike the container back to the top of the hill for him. He claims a find. UP TO JAKE, BUT I WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CLAIMING A FIND, ESPECIALLY IF JAKE HAS BEEN OUT CACHING ALL MORNING, AND HURT HIS ANKLE DURING THE CACHE RUN

7) Sherman hates multicaches. He convinces his buddy Chuck to give him the final coords for one of the most heinous multis in his area. It has something like 15 stages, each a level three to five in difficulty. Sherman goes to the final coordinates and signs the log. He logs a smiley. UP TO SHERMAN, BUT I WOULD NOT CLAIM A FIND ON THIS ONE

8) Big Moe hates puzzles. He buys the solution to all the puzzle caches in his town from an enterprising seller on eBay. He goes to the final coordinates for all the puzzle caches in town and signs their logbooks. He logs smileys for each one. UP TO BIG MOE, BUT I WOULD NOT CLAIM A FIND ON ANY OF THEM

9) Garvas throws a bowling event cache. Quentin shows up and meets a couple of the bowlers outside in the parking lot as the event is breaking up, but he didn't go in, he didn't bowl, he didn't trade travel bugs or talk caching, he didn't drink a beverage or share in the camaraderie. Most of the cachers didn't even see him or know he was there. He goes home and logs a smiley for the event. NOT A FIND

The views expressed in this reply do not necessarily reflect the opinions or guidelines of Geocaching.com, its agents or representatives. Poster reserves the right to state that everyone will play the game differently. No deposit, no return. Do not sell beyond expiration date. Buy 2 eggroll, get one free. No tickee, no laundry. Elvis has left the building.

July 28, 2004

I don't consider it a find unless I physically sign the logbook myself. I know of a group of local cachers that usually travel together and one person signs the book for all. That would make me wonder if all of them were actually there. The logbook is supposed to validate that you actually found the cache. Some of the caches I have visited it is easier to drive near the cache and then drop a person off to find it. We don't sign the log for both, we just switch the roles and then both get to find it.

Caching in pairs or a group is inevitable and that usually means that all people in the group will not find the cache on their own. But... sitting in a car is not looking for the cache. I figure if you at least were out there, made the effort to look (I wouldn't dream of sitting back and letting the others do the work) and then physically sign the logbook that is a find.

I cache with a friend who will cache without me since I travel quite a bit. He has offered last stage coordinates on multi's, but I don't want them. The fun, to me, is in the hunt and that includes multiple stages. We also have someone in the area that hides numbers in his caches that are clues to caches he will place in the future. I would never consider "finding" the new cache without having found the initial cache with the clue (without the clue, you can't compute the coordinates). Just doesn't seem right to me.

As for puzzles, I guess I'm more lenient because I'm just not that good at them. I give it my best shot but if my caching partner figured it out and is ready to go find the cache (we usually hunt for 5 or more caches in a day) I wouldn't just sit back and not look even though I didn't solve the puzzle. Cheesy maybe, but I know others in the area that don't even bother trying.

All this said, in the end it is just a game. I try not to let the numbers thing get me to the point of aggravation just because someone else doesn't play to my standards. If they think it's fun just to watch their numbers rise, when they aren't actually hunting, then they probably don't have much fun in their lives. :laughing:

July 29, 2004

What is the difference between buying the answers to a puzzle, finding the final cache and signing; and paying somebody to bring you the cache from the cliff (or wherever) and signing the log...

Why not just pay someone to cache for you...

I usually cache alone but sometimes (<5%) my family comes along...1 or 4 we log a :tired: if any one finds it. BUT, we have only one account and I am always one of the four. We always anchor the boat and all participate in the hunt, if it is on the side of a cliff, I get to retrieve the cache but we sign the log describing how the team got the cache...

If a TEAM of cachers each has individual accounts then it is on a individual finders basis...if mom was elsewhere watching the kids, nope...If CR is napping in the truck, nope for him... If I didn't cross the ravine or climb the rock, nope...if I stayed to guard the boat, nope...

July 29, 2004

...If CR is napping in the truck, nope for him...

But, CR and Sissy log all their finds under one account. So then it is a find for them. CoyoteRed is just his account for talking in the forums.

Signing The Log For Someone Else

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