Pathetic

9.4k · July 20, 2004

This activity isn't supposed to be about commerial activity.

...he said, posting to the commercial enterprise's forum boards.

Pot...meet kettle

Sorry, it's not so simple as you seem to think. I don't deny the first poster's comment to be true, I just pointed out the irony of where it's placed.

...and as much as you like to complain about Geocaching.com being a evil commercial enterprise, you sure to hang out here a lot.

4.5k · July 20, 2004

I'm all in favor of commercialization. I hope Groundspeak and Daimler make millions. It's just that once you sliced it, it's pretty lame to call some guy who selling a toy jeep a"thief" when he's doing the same thing as everyone else. And by the way, why are cachers so perturbed about this? Isn't it because they too are looking to make a buck from the jeep through the sweepstakes just as the ebay guy is also trying to make a buck his way. SOund like everyone's trying to make a buck.

What does making a buck have to do with geocaching?

Alan

2.6k · July 20, 2004

It's just that once you sliced it, it's pretty lame to call some guy who selling a toy jeep a"thief" when he's doing the same thing as everyone else.

But he isn't. He's a thief because he's selling someone else's cheap toy. You really can't equate someone trying to sell me hubcaps with someone who steals my hubcaps and tries to sell them to someone else, just because both lads are out for a buck at my expense.

If the general reaction to this promotion had been hostility or indifference, then it would constitute an imposition on the game. But people in my area couldn't have been more enthusiastic about the hunt if Yellow Jeeps were the illegitimate offspring of a Beanie Baby and a Cabbage Patch Kid. People have stampeded to caches with Jeeps in them.

Me, I was less enthusiastic. I know what the odds look like and I have no belief in my own luck. But I picked one up almost by accident and moved it a mile, and I confess I get a warm frisson out of that new yellow icon in my stats.

No matter how crass and commercial the intent may (or may not) have been, by loving it, people have taken ownership of it.

July 20, 2004

well they seem to be makeing a fair amount of money at this. It is still not there property though.

July 20, 2004

Whether it's 'legal' or not really isn't the issue. It's that the YJTB isn't being used for its original intent. That may or may not be allowed or approved or frowned upon, depending on how you view the whole situation. It's not really a matter of legality. It 'may' be an issue of ethics. Plain and simple.

I think we can all see both sides of this, whether or not we agree with the 'other' side.

July 20, 2004

:blink: I really want one of those to hang from the rear view of my Jeep, but I know it's wrong.

Does wanting it make me a bad person?

July 20, 2004

I really want one of those to hang from the rear view of my Jeep, but I know it's wrong.

Does wanting it make me a bad person?

Nope. I'm beginning to believe (after reading this thread) that whatever you want to do with them will be fine. Even though I think they should be moved along, I certainly can understand why you would want to do that.

July 20, 2004

I really want one of those to hang from the rear view of my Jeep, but I know it's wrong.

Does wanting it make me a bad person?

Nope! We hung ours in our Minivan while driving between caches (before dropping it in one).

http://img.Groundspeak.com/track/log/d00a5...fe2448d2302.jpg

On topic: Wish I had thought of this weeks ago! What a great way to make some money! I'll have to go find one to auction off at the next event! Bet I can make my favorite charity (animal shelter) some dough.

I agree with the folks who see the Ebay auction as poor form on the seller's part. I also wonder how they will transfer "ownership" if they really don't own the TB. Can you imagine the hollering if someone was selling personal TBs intsead of a jeep? I always wondered what happened to the two of ours that disappeared.

-Jennifer

Edited July 20, 2004 by Jamethiel

4.5k · July 20, 2004

It's just that once you sliced it, it's pretty lame to call some guy who selling a toy jeep a"thief" when he's doing the same thing as everyone else.

But he isn't. He's a thief because he's selling someone else's cheap toy. You really can't equate someone trying to sell me hubcaps with someone who steals my hubcaps and tries to sell them to someone else, just because both lads are out for a buck at my expense.

If the general reaction to this promotion had been hostility or indifference, then it would constitute an imposition on the game. But people in my area couldn't have been more enthusiastic about the hunt if Yellow Jeeps were the illegitimate offspring of a Beanie Baby and a Cabbage Patch Kid. People have stampeded to caches with Jeeps in them.

Me, I was less enthusiastic. I know what the odds look like and I have no belief in my own luck. But I picked one up almost by accident and moved it a mile, and I confess I get a warm frisson out of that new yellow icon in my stats.

No matter how crass and commercial the intent may (or may not) have been, by loving it, people have taken ownership of it.

You might be right but I enjoy playing the devil's advocate. Until I "supported" the ebay guy's position on page 1, everyone was taking the opposite view. Now this topic has eaten up three pages. What would we be doing if not arguing here? Geocaching? Hmmm.

OK here's a twist that should be good for a couple more pages.

What if I kept the YJTB that was placed in my cache container? Would that be more "moral"? After all, I have authority over my cache. People have removed religious literature or business cards that was placed in caches, some not even their own caches. So if I didn't want you to leave that crappy, commercial YJTB in my purist non-commercial cache, then why can't I do the same?

I say remove it. Sell it and give the money to charity or so I can pay for another year subscription to geocaching.

Alan :blink:

July 20, 2004

Some of you people need to get a life and stop worrying about something so petty, go caching for god's sake! Stop acting like you're all the geocaching.com special police. Morals or not, it's none of our business! Either buy it or don't. He's not twisting anyone's arm to buy it either. What next dictatorship in America? Loosen up people, everyone's a bit too serious and stressed around here..... :blink:

July 20, 2004

Will the seller be arrested and charged with petty theft? No.
Will the seller be banned by eBay? I doubt it.

However, I think the title of this thread accurately reflects my feelings about the seller.

Exactly...

And...

By the way, personally I'd feel guilty selling a jeep on ebay. Perhaps it's not 'illegal' but it doesn't really sound 'fair.'

I think that sums it up pretty well...it may not be illegal or against any rules (as Mopar said...I doubt Jeep would like the idea of selling one...), but it doesn't really seem right to do...thats the issue here...not legality...but morality...just doesn't seem right to do...

-Six

July 20, 2004

Some of you people need to get a life and stop worrying about something so petty, go caching for god's sake! Stop acting like you're all the geocaching.com special police. Morals or not, it's none of our business! Either buy it or don't. He's not twisting anyone's arm to buy it either. What next dictatorship in America? Loosen up people, everyone's a bit too serious and stressed around here.....

I'm not stressed a bit over it. Really. I just stated my opinion. I can do that without getting stressed or even thinking about it once I've hit submit........

July 21, 2004

I guess I just figure there's more important things in the world and this game to wory about. I worry more about driving an hour to find a cache and end up not finding it. I worry about if the kids are safe when they walk somewhere alone. But I don't wory about a promotional item that someone sells on Ebay, big deal!

I believe the trueowner is the person who has possession of it.

1.2k · July 21, 2004

Hmmmm... I have been meaning to get around to auctioning off a manual and CD to my old Map 330... I have a yellow jeep TB I've been meaning to get rid of... Hmmm...

I wonder how folks would react to an Ebay listing like this:

"MAP 330 manual and Mapsend CD (plus one free bonus Yellow Jeep TB!)"

Would this be uncool for any reason? I am trying to see how it would be tacky, and I can't come up with anything.... I mean, the TB itself isn't being sold...

Edited July 21, 2004 by Sparrowhawk

July 21, 2004

Hey I don't need the manual or cd, but that bonus of the TB. That cd just became very valuable! LOL.............COOL!!!!!!!!! :mad:

To me, it's do with it as you chose. <_<

July 21, 2004

Hmmmm... I have been meaning to get around to auctioning off a manual and CD to my old Map 330... I have a yellow jeep TB I've been meaning to get rid of... Hmmm...

I wonder how folks would react to an Ebay listing like this:

"MAP 330 manual and Mapsend CD (plus one free bonus Yellow Jeep TB!)"

Would this be uncool for any reason? I am trying to see how it would be tacky, and I can't come up with anything.... I mean, the TB itself isn't being sold...

Just a thought or a question, cause I dont use the mapsend, but when you installed the CD, were you asked to agree to the terms of the company that put out the CD, or did it self install with out intervention? And if you did have to agree to the terms, did those terms state that the CD and programs found on the CD were property of the "company" and copyrighted, and copying, selling, or placing the software on another computer was illegal?

2.1k · July 21, 2004

...and as much as you like to complain about Geocaching.com being a evil commercial enterprise, you sure to hang out here a lot.

If I had a reasonable alternative in the matter, do you think I would?

I'm far more pragmatic than most dreamers. Until the attitudes of our hobby's "custodians" (their word, not mine) change to allow for a more open approach to listing geocaches, I will continue to do what is necessary to gather my enjoyment of the game as it is and lobby for the changes that would allow everyone to enjoy the game as they best see fit.

9.4k · July 21, 2004

...and as much as you like to complain about Geocaching.com being a evil commercial enterprise, you sure to hang out here a lot.

If I had a reasonable alternative in the matter, do you think I would?

I'm far more pragmatic than most dreamers. Until the attitudes of our hobby's "custodians" (their word, not mine) change to allow for a more open approach to listing geocaches, I will continue to do what is necessary to gather my enjoyment of the game as it is and lobby for the changes that would allow everyone to enjoy the game as they best see fit.

The game is not this site. If this site doesn't like your ideas, it doesn't mean they're bad ones, it just meand you need to take those ideas somewhere else.

4k · July 21, 2004

An earlier post mentioned that violation of the rules of the Jeep game could result in the contest being closed. So, if by selling a YJTB is akin to making purchase necessary to enter (or to making the purchase akin to a lottery), that would be a violation of the rules, and thereby could result in nobody winning anything from Jeep. And if that happened, I doubt Jeep would make any more offers to help gc.com again. Yeah, that sale of a "toy car" on eBay could have very devestating effects!

Since the location of the seller is only 60 miles north of me, I will do some investigation on my own with the locals and see what I can dredge up.

2.3k · July 21, 2004

Since the location of the seller is only 60 miles north of me, I will do some investigation on my own with the locals and see what I can dredge up.

Go open up some whoop a**, Sparky! Let us know what you find...

2.3k · July 21, 2004

Current bid: US $20.50

Wow, you gotta be kidding! I sure hope that's not a REAL bid going on there...

July 21, 2004

everyone email this guy and tell him that you have reported him to ebay for theft. <_<

July 21, 2004

It appears that the auction was ended early - no sale. Interesting....here.

"The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids."

Edited July 21, 2004 by Pilgrim, Rhubarb, & Sweet Pea

July 21, 2004

Look how many views...... 1146 as of now. WOW.

1.6k · July 21, 2004

I gotta say, this one is an interesting read...

July 21, 2004

I believe the trueowner is the person who has possession of it.

Cool! Using that theory, tell me where you park your car so I can swipe it and become the next "true owner"!

You may think "apples to oranges", but is it really?? A possession is a possession is a possession, right?

Just food for thought.

Too many people these days think "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too"....whether the value of the possession is $1,000,000 or $.01, if it isn't yours to sell or use, it is wrong to do so without permission by the true owner....it has nothing to do with trying to be "Eaby police" or anything. If more people stood up and sounded off about crap like this I think the world would be much better off......Problem is, no one wants to say anything.

shadango

<_<

July 21, 2004

It appears that the auction was ended early - no sale. Interesting....here.

"The seller ended the listing early and cancelled all bids."

For whatever it is worth --

I had posted earlier that I emailed the seller, the one bidder (86_vette) and ebay on this. (email addresses have been removed)

Here are the replies I recieved (his reply is below my second response to him):

From the bidder:

*********************

shadango replies:

The YJTBs are meant to be released into the cahces and then distributed via cachers moving them. They were never intended to be sold by anyone....doing so most likely violates several copyright laws.

By selling them on ebay this seller has violated the whole concept behind travel bugs, let alone the YJTB......by purchasing them from someone, a person is takiung the sport out of it. If you log a "find" for a YJTB that you purchase, how is it truly a find at all? And I have just learned that the number of YJTBs you find doesnt affect or increase your chances of winning anything in the contest at all.....One YJTB is the same as finding 100. You can only enter once per period, and you can use the same YJTB number over and over.

By stealing and selling these on ebay, the sleer only serves to ruin the game for other cachers.

Please reference www.geocaching.com's website for much more information on travel bugs...there is a forum where this seller is being discussed now......look under a topic named "pathetic"......You will get a much better idea of why this is so objectionable....

Thanks for your cooperation.....

-----Original Message-----

From: 86_vette

Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:43 PM

To: zavetsky@comcast.net

Subject: Re: Question from eBay Member

i am an avid geocher myself.. are you sure it is stolen? how could you know with out the tracking number?

***********************************

From ebay:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting eBay Community Watch with your report. I'll be

pleased to render assistance.

If you see an item on eBay that you believe is stolen, your best course

is to contact law enforcement immediately. Under eBay's privacy rules,

our attorneys will provide important records about pending and past

listings with an official request from law enforcement officials. Please

inform the police officer handling the case that eBay will be pleased to

cooperate in the investigation, and ask the officer to contact eBay

using our law enforcement-specific webform. The officer should include

all relevant information, including the case number and any item numbers

or User IDs.

Regards,

Community Watch

***********************************

No reply by the seller yet.

So, as usual, Ebay was no help. I would be courious to know if "86_vette" is on this forum, maybe even replying to this topic....

7.2k · July 21, 2004

I had emailed him in an effort to get the series number or the reference number. I was going to then see if that person had grabbed it. Then we would have known the handle of this person.

Now, we may never know.

At least the desired effect was accomplished.

Edited July 21, 2004 by CoyoteRed

July 21, 2004

I had emailed him in an effort to get the series number or the reference number. I was going to then see if that person had grabbed it. Then we would have known the handle of this person.

Now, we may never know.

At least the desired effect was accomplished.

I doubt he would have given it anyways....

What torques me off is that someone who professed to be "an avid geocacher" (the bidder) would have tried to buy the TB.....not to start that whole discussion again though.

Glad that it was pulled...it's likely that another will pop up though. heck, the seller may have even decidedto sell it privately......to avoid the possible flack.

1.2k · July 21, 2004

First of all that "Swedish cacher" was me blatantly lying to the seller. If you had read it correctly you'd see I said "I don't want to log it, I just want to make sure it works before I spend so much money." Nothing in there about wanting to log it. But anyway...

I figured if the guy was stupid enough to sell it maybe he's stupid enough to give away the #, with which I could post a very interesting note on the bugs page. I was so sure the allure of $75 would be enough to get it out of him. He wouldn't even tell me which number out of 5,001 it was. <_< It's still pretty funny that we got him to end the auction early.

7.2k · July 21, 2004

First of all that "Swedish cacher" was me blatantly lying to the seller.

<_< Sorry, I sort of got a chuckle out of that.

July 21, 2004

See? I just KNEW there was something fishy about that 'question'!!! <_<

July 21, 2004

First of all that "Swedish cacher" was me blatantly lying to the seller. If you had read it correctly you'd see I said "I don't want to log it, I just want to make sure it works before I spend so much money." Nothing in there about wanting to log it. But anyway...

I figured if the guy was stupid enough to sell it maybe he's stupid enough to give away the #, with which I could post a very interesting note on the bugs page. I was so sure the allure of $75 would be enough to get it out of him. He wouldn't even tell me which number out of 5,001 it was. It's still pretty funny that we got him to end the auction early.

I love it! You sneaky booger you!

<_<

4k · July 21, 2004

I have emailed several cachers in the Salina area asking for information. Interestingly, there seems to be about a dozen cachers in that area that are Sheriff's Officers, so I'm sure one of them will be willing to help. They all use "SasoXXX" (x=variable numbers) as their handle, so it's easy to find them. :mad:

I'll wait and see if any are willing to help. That's their job, right? Protect and Serve and Publicly Embarass? <_<

2.3k · July 21, 2004

I have emailed several cachers in the Salina area asking for information. Interestingly, there seems to be about a dozen cachers in that area that are Sheriff's Officers, so I'm sure one of them will be willing to help. They all use "SasoXXX" (x=variable numbers) as their handle, so it's easy to find them.

I'll wait and see if any are willing to help. That's their job, right? Protect and Serve and Publicly Embarass?

Yes

4k · July 21, 2004

I have emailed several cachers in the Salina area asking for information. Interestingly, there seems to be about a dozen cachers in that area that are Sheriff's Officers, so I'm sure one of them will be willing to help. They all use "SasoXXX" (x=variable numbers) as their handle, so it's easy to find them.

I'll wait and see if any are willing to help. That's their job, right? Protect and Serve and Publicly Embarass?

Yes

Touche', oh medical one! <_<

July 21, 2004

What *I* find interesting about all this is that Vargseld seems to be looking to find YJTBs on eBay rather than in caches! :mad: <_<

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

July 21, 2004

What bothered me about this didn't have anything to do with commercialism or who owns what, blah blah blah. It was that people would pick up TBs and sell them on ebay. Has this happened before, with non-jeep TBs? If the seller were allowed to sell this TB, what kind of precendent would that set for anyone selling any old travel bug they picked up. Now, who would buy them is another question....

1.2k · July 21, 2004

Hmmmm... I have been meaning to get around to auctioning off a manual and CD to my old Map 330... I have a yellow jeep TB I've been meaning to get rid of... Hmmm...

I wonder how folks would react to an Ebay listing like this:

"MAP 330 manual and Mapsend CD (plus one free bonus Yellow Jeep TB!)"

Would this be uncool for any reason? I am trying to see how it would be tacky, and I can't come up with anything.... I mean, the TB itself isn't being sold...

Just a thought or a question, cause I dont use the mapsend, but when you installed the CD, were you asked to agree to the terms of the company that put out the CD, or did it self install with out intervention? And if you did have to agree to the terms, did those terms state that the CD and programs found on the CD were property of the "company" and copyrighted, and copying, selling, or placing the software on another computer was illegal?

As I remember, it pretty much spelled out the usual... it translates to ya don't make burned copies for other folks when you have the CD, don't upload and give away, etc. In my case, the software has been wiped from my HD because I have all new software, I never registered this one disk, and I have no other copies of this software stored anywhere else than what's on this one disk. Since I am not selling a burned copy, just the original, and not keeping my own copy here, I am pretty clear to go on this one.

Never got a good answer on if giving out a free YJTB with geocaching-related merchandise in general is a bad thing or what... still waiting for a good answer out there on that question.

Edited July 21, 2004 by Sparrowhawk

4.5k · July 22, 2004

Before anyone gets the sheriff after this guy, you might want to check with a lawyer before you open yourself to a lawsuit. While it might not be "moral" according to geocaching "rules", it could well be perfectly legal that someone has a right to sell anything that someone places in his cache container. Calling that person a thief and making a lot of trouble for him might wind up costing you more than the twenty bucks someone offered him on Ebay.

July 24, 2004

he deserves to have it taken and have his computer blocked from making another geocaching.com or ebay account

Pathetic

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