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Technically, since there is no purchase necessary to enter, then wouldn't this be 'improper play'?  No, this really isn't going to affect the outcome of the game, but still, what if this happens to be the winning entry, and the winner 'bought' the entry?  No way to prove this, but still, it's the principle of the thing!

Logging a jeep has nothing to do with the big jeep give away sweepstakes. Are you talking about the photo or essay contests?

 

erm.... NORMally I'm not so much trouble in the forums... guess I need a cup of coffee.

Edited by GentleWhisper
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Keep this in perspective, guys. It's a toy car

Ehhhh...perspective, yourself.

 

People who play a game that they enjoy get seriously wadded up when they think someone is abusing the rules of that game. These are really, really old braincells we've all been busily developing since nursery school, when it was 'our turn' to play with the squeaky thing. For many people, few things enrage them as much a violation of the most basic rules of fair play, because those lessons have such old, deep roots. Which is why fisticuffs occasionally break out when someone cuts line or tries to take 20 things through the 12 items or less checkout.

 

The reaction may be extreme, but the basic instinct to play fair is a pretty important one for a civil society. The nature or the value of the gamepiece has nothing to do with it.

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The Jeep TB is not normal geocaching TB play so all "rules" regarding them in my opinion fall by the wayside. Daimler is not a geocacher. Jeep is not part of our game. Nobody finds a Jeep and moves it on which is usual TB play.

 

Our game when played by regular cachers intends to sell nothing. This Jeep thing on the other hand is strictly commercialisation to sell Jeep and Geocaching. All bets are off in that situation. To mix the two aspects is not comparable.

 

Alan

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To play the devils advocate here :blink: In all honesty there are hundreds if not thousands YJTBs that are being taken out of circulation as keepsakes. I also venture to guess that over time most will be taken out.

 

There are also YJTBs that have never been put into circulation, and likely never will. Who's to say that the TB that is on Ebay was stolen from a cache? It might be one that has never been activated, but was given to that person to do with as he or she pleases.

 

It has also been mentioned that the YJTBs are game pieces. They are, but only in the sense that you need one in order to submit an essay or a photo to win "Jeep Gear". However you do not need one to win one of the 3 actual "Jeeps" that are being given away. As a matter of fact, having one of the YJTB has no bearing on winning a "Jeep" whatsoever.

 

Just some things to think over.

 

El Diablo

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Can I go to your cache and take something I like to turn around and sell it??

Yes. Yes, you can. Provided that you trade fairly, taking an item from a cache isn't stealing. It's part of the game. It becomes yours and you're free to do anything you want with it...

Right, but if I go to your cache, take something and leave....I dont log my visit or any record of my taking it and leave nothing.

 

My guess is that if this guy got this from a cache, this was the scenario otherwise it would be tracked to him.

 

true, though...it could be one that was emailed to someone for placement in a cache...but then , if it is that easy, why would someone pay $75 on ebay for one??

 

:blink:

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Question, if the owner deleted a log does that remove the reference of the TB from the logger's tally?

 

In other words, if I so happen to log that I grabbed or retrieved a YJTB, but Jeep4x4 deletes my log. Do I loss the credit?

 

If so, it would make no sense what so ever to buy a TB. You don't have control of the TB page and you could likely not be able to log it and get credit for it.

 

Anyone really think these are collectors items?

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People who play a game that they enjoy get seriously wadded up when they think someone is abusing the rules of that game. These are really, really old braincells we've all been busily developing since nursery school, when it was 'our turn' to play with the squeaky thing.

OMG! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

 

That was a great summation...I have a 2 year old and 5 year old in preschool/daycare so I can relate! "The squeaky thing"...FUNNY! :blink:

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It has also been mentioned that the YJTBs are game pieces. They are, but only in the sense that you need one in order to submit an essay or a photo to win "Jeep Gear". However you do not need one to win one of the 3 actual "Jeeps" that are being given away. As a matter of fact, having one of the YJTB has no bearing on winning a "Jeep" whatsoever.

 

These are great points.....although I still submit that this is not clear to everyone, at least not at first, tehrefore making tehset hings have a percieved value, contest wise....

 

Or maybe I am the only dumb schmuck who thought that finding MORE of these gave me a better chance at getting a Jeep..... :blink:

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Nobody finds a Jeep and moves it on which is usual TB play.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this statement.

I'm wrong about the moving on part. It appears that that's encouraged. However, since Daimsler is not a normal geocacher and these Jeep TB's are really all about promoting a product, why should the regular rules regarding them apply? Daimler isn't paying me anything to help promote their product. Why should I help them?

 

Frankly a geocaching "purist" might find the whole thing objectionable and trash any TB Jeep he finds. Does anyone feel that way?

 

If I found one, I might keep it as a momento and never enter the contest. I get all sorts of sweetskates forms in the mail that I thow out because I don't want to waste my time.

 

Or maybe someone else wants the Jeep TB as a momento and is willing to buy it on Ebay, not to enter a contest, but just to have it as a souvenir. Hmmm. That's where we came in.

 

Alan

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People who play a game that they enjoy get seriously wadded up when they think someone is abusing the rules of that game.

I enjoy playing this game, yet I'm not "wadded up" about it. Why? It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

 

Life is already too full of more serious things to be ticked off about than something like auctioning a piece of metal with plastic wheels.

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Who's to say that the TB that is on Ebay was stolen from a cache? It might be one that has never been activated, but was given to that person to do with as he or she pleases.

I'd say this does make a difference in the current debate.

Yes, but not the difference you may be thinking. As one of the people who was shipped the YJTBs, I can assure you they were not sent to me with the intent to "do as I please" with them. They were sent to me with the understanding that they would be distributed to local cachers and placed in local caches. As a matter of fact, the amount I was shipped was based on the projected attendance of the events they were distributed at.

I do have to admit it's rather saddening to see that many of the YJs I gave out have not moved yet. No, you can't win a real Jeep with the TBs, but you can win some other cool prizes. It's a shame some cachers are depriving others of that chance by keeping them, or trying to make a profit for moving a TB.

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[ Daimler isn't paying me anything to help promote their product. Why should I help them?

In a sense, they did pay you Alan. And me, and every other person that uses this site, especially the non-premium users.

I think I saw posted that the money that Jeep kicked in helped pay for the last server upgrade. So this promotion helped all of us by reducing the operating costs that we the users generate.

Anything that helps keep geocaching.com from bleeding cash and going belly up is a good thing. I love the game, and no other listing site comes close, but I always have to wonder how long this is sustainable under the current income system.

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However, since Daimsler is not a normal geocacher and these Jeep TB's are really all about promoting a product, why should the regular rules regarding them apply? Daimler isn't paying me anything to help promote their product. Why should I help them?

 

Frankly a geocaching "purist" might find the whole thing objectionable and trash any TB Jeep he finds. Does anyone feel that way?

 

If I found one, I might keep it as a momento and never enter the contest. I get all sorts of sweetskates forms in the mail that I thow out because I don't want to waste my time.

 

Or maybe someone else wants the Jeep TB as a momento and is willing to buy it on Ebay, not to enter a contest, but just to have it as a souvenir. Hmmm. That's where we came in.

 

Alan

Again, I think it boils down to "what is the intention of the TB", not the color of it or anything else....

 

Regardless of what the purist might think, the YJTBs have been blessed by GC.com, the mother of the caches we all hunt here.....they are legit TBs that have a goal and a purpose.

 

Is it OK to steal a regualr TB?? I think most people here would say "NO!"

 

Just becuase the owner of these TBs is a big company, does that make it ok?

 

To blatantly steal, deface, mutilate, throw away, pilfer, molest, crush, incinerate, break, brusie, squish, squash, break or sell on ebay ANYTHING that isn't yours just because "you can", is to slap the folks who play this game honestly in their face and brings into question the morals of the perpetraitor......"because I could get away with it" might be a good excuse used by presidnets and the like, but it don;t make it right.....

 

Some folks might think thats not a big deal.....and I would agreee...but some folks want to be weinies and rain on the parades of others.

 

I hope that folks will just play the game as intended and follow the loose rules in place and just let people have fun.

 

(Dangit, I thought I trashed my soapbox!!) :blink:

 

Shadango

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Who's to say that the TB that is on Ebay was stolen from a cache? It might be one that has never been activated, but was given to that person to do with as he or she pleases.

I'd say this does make a difference in the current debate.

Yes, but not the difference you may be thinking. As one of the people who was shipped the YJTBs, I can assure you they were not sent to me with the intent to "do as I please" with them. They were sent to me with the understanding that they would be distributed to local cachers and placed in local caches. As a matter of fact, the amount I was shipped was based on the projected attendance of the events they were distributed at.

I do have to admit it's rather saddening to see that many of the YJs I gave out have not moved yet. No, you can't win a real Jeep with the TBs, but you can win some other cool prizes. It's a shame some cachers are depriving others of that chance by keeping them, or trying to make a profit for moving a TB.

While you may feel "obligated" to help Daimler sell their Jeeps and also feel "obligated" to help other cachers gain an opportunity to "win" something at our non-commercial game, it's just not right to place that same burden on others.

 

With your theory, why shouldn't I start placing ads for charitable organizations and commercial enterprises in caches and start my own "giveaways"? I'm sure most people here would object to that yet when it comes to the Jeep TB, everyone forgets or "bends" the rules just a "little". :blink:

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With your theory, why shouldn't I start placing ads for charitable organizations and commercial enterprises in caches and start my own "giveaways"? I'm sure most people here would object to that yet when it comes to the Jeep TB, everyone forgets or "bends" the rules just a "little". :blink:

Which rule is that? I haven't seen any rules being bent or broken with the yellow jeep travel bugs.

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To blatantly steal, deface, mutilate, throw away, pilfer, molest, crush, incinerate, break, brusie, squish, squash, break or sell on ebay ANYTHING that isn't yours just because "you can", is to slap the folks who play this game honestly in their face and brings into question the morals of the perpetraitor......"

 

I haven't laughed so hard since I got up this morning. Thanks. Now, before I'm sent to Purgatory, where did I put the glue I need to put that Jeep TB back together again?...

 

Alan :blink:

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While you may feel "obligated" to help Daimler sell their Jeeps and also feel "obligated" to help other cachers gain an opportunity to "win" something at our non-commercial game, it's just not right to place that same burden on others.

 

I can't address the whole "purity" and "non commercial" issue, since I am a newbie....although clearly GC.com is a commercial endevour...nothing wrong with that......the folks that run GC.com need to cover costs and make a profit if they are to continue supporting this cool sport. But thats just my opinion.

 

If you wear Nike shoes or drive a car, you advertise for that company everytime you wear the shoes or drive the car.....the whole commercialism thing is too big a topic.....

 

The issue here isnt the commercialization of GC.com....it is about players respecting the idea that there are others playing by the rules and who ARE "into" the YJTB thing (like me)......

 

There are those who despise micros...so is it OK to go search for them and destroy them? Of course not....Different strokes, folks.

 

In a nutshell: If you dont want to do the YJTB thing, or ANY TB thing for that matter, dont do them...just leave the YJTB lie there and dont contribue to the "commercialism"......but to interfere with those who DO, is just mean spirited and ethically questionable.

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With your theory, why shouldn't I start placing ads for charitable organizations and commercial enterprises in caches and start my own "giveaways"?  I'm sure most people here would object to that yet when it comes to the Jeep TB, everyone forgets or "bends" the rules just a "little".  :blink:

Which rule is that? I haven't seen any rules being bent or broken with the yellow jeep travel bugs.

It's breaking the rule against placement of commercial entities. The Jeep TB was placed to sell Jeeps. If Ford did the same thing to sell their pickups, without Groundspeak approval, Ford would be breaking the rules. Groundspeak is "breaking" the rules they created for their monetary gain. So there are no rules, if the king says so. So why should I feel obligated. Do I look like a fool? :D

 

Alan

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Well I was going to continue on with this debate. But since I haven't officially chosen a side, and I'm being chastised for using the word Norm... [sorry I don't go to the AS forum, I didn't know.] And since my two small children were just caught playing with sharp objects while I was wasting time at the computer... well I think I'll call it a day.

 

By the way, personally I'd feel guilty selling a jeep on ebay. Perhaps it's not 'illegal' but it doesn't really sound 'fair.'

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It's breaking the rule against placement of commercial entities. The Jeep TB was placed to sell Jeeps. If Ford did the same thing to sell their pickups, without Groundspeak approval, Ford would be breaking the rules. Groundspeak is "breaking" the rules they created for their monetary gain. So there are no rules, if the king says so. So why should I feel obligated. Do I look like a fool? :blink:

 

Alan

No such rule exists.

The closest I see states that commercial ventures need to be cleared first. Obviously they cleared this, just like they cleared the APE caches, and many smaller local caches. I rember one in NY that was hidden in a nursery. Clearly a commercial location. But the nursery had all sorts of jungle topiaries and a fake jungle, complete with sound effects. There was a cache there. The hider took the time to get permission from both the owner and Groundspeak, and they had no problems approving a "commercial" cache.

 

So the only rule being broken here doesnt even exist. So your point again?

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That's tortured logic. First we have a rule that says no commercial items. Then you argue that the "king" can bend that rule at his will therefore selected commercial caches are OK.

 

What kind of a rule is that?

 

Anyway this is not an apiary and you can't dress this up as nice little green things that grow. This is a hard core commercial transaction between Grounspeak and Daimler - $82,000 in vehicles plus all other costs..

 

Don't get me wrong. I would completely respect any Jeep TB I found and pass it on for the many reasons stated here because I know others who are interested would like to "find" one. But that's me. However, others might not feel that way because this whole thing is commercial. So getting back to the Topic's point, a little more "selling", on Ebay or whereever is not that far of a stretch and calling that person a thief is a little too much. Don't you think?

 

Alan

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Well I was going to continue on with this debate. But since I haven't officially chosen a side, and I'm being chastised for using the word Norm... [sorry I don't go to the AS forum, I didn't know.] And since my two small children were just caught playing with sharp objects while I was wasting time at the computer... well I think I'll call it a day.

 

By the way, personally I'd feel guilty selling a jeep on ebay. Perhaps it's not 'illegal' but it doesn't really sound 'fair.'

Not chastised, only informed. I did it in topic so others would know that it should not be done in general topics.

 

Hey, I didn't warn ya! :blink::D Please feel free to carry on GW.

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Not chastised, only informed. I did it in topic so others would know that it should not be done in general topics.

 

Hey, I didn't warn ya! :D:D Please feel free to carry on GW.

Thanks mtn-man, but there's still that children playing with sharp objects thing... :blink: I better go supervise these jr. cachers so they can live long enough to learn how to read so they can argue in the forums.

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Not chastised, only informed.  I did it in topic so others would know that it should not be done in general topics.

 

Hey, I didn't warn ya!  :D  :D  Please feel free to carry on GW.

Thanks mtn-man, but there's still that children playing with sharp objects thing... :D I better go supervise these jr. cachers so they can live long enough to learn how to read so they can argue in the forums.

:blink::D:D

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...Keep this in perspective, guys.

...You can't actually expect every single one of them to stay in circulation forever....

That's exactly what we do. We place caches expecting them to stay. If we didn't expect that we wouldn't do it at all. We also expect a few to turn up missing but not all of them. It's a percentage game that keeps us playing. Same with caches, same with TB's. There is a point at which missing and stolen things will cause every last one of us to quit.

 

To encourage (not that you are doing that) any type of plundering and theft at all is not what we should be doing.

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How does he know there are 5001?  I know with some digging around, you can figure that out, but wouldn't he about have to be a cacher to know that?

I thought there was only 4001

Weren't there 4000 initially sent out, with 1000 more (upon request) once the first batch were sent out? I may have misunderstood.....

 

EDIT: Yeah, here we go, from Jeremy himself:

 

There are two programs. The first is the sweepstakes for 3 Jeeps that will be given out this year. It's a standard drawing.

 

The second program is the 4,000 die-cast yellow jeep wranglers with their own custom travel bug attached. There will be a monthly contest starting June 1st through December 25th where a prize will be given for the best photo, and another award for the best essay relating to these found travel bugs.

 

Jeep were really psyched about promoting the activity and they wanted to create a unique concept that would allow the largest number of geocachers to participate. We discouraged the placement of caches due to the limited accessibility to find them (and the "Mad Mad World" phenomenon we've seen in the past).

 

We'll be distributing many of the bugs through local organizations, and another 1,000 will be available on the web site for people to request and have shipped to them for free. When we start taking requests, we'll have a section on the http://jeep.geocaching.com web site.

 

The current goal for these bugs are just to travel around and swap stories, but Jeep is thinking about giving some of them specific goals. If you want to come up with any ideas, I'd love to hear about them and will pass on the info to Jeep.

 

Rodale, the publishers of many outdoor magazines such as Backpacker, Bicycling, etc. are also involved, and are promoting the idea through these and other magazines.

 

From this thread.

Edited by Pipanella
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How does he know there are 5001?  I know with some digging around, you can figure that out, but wouldn't he about have to be a cacher to know that?

I thought there was only 4001

Weren't there 4000 initially sent out, with 1000 more (upon request) once the first batch were sent out? I may have misunderstood.....

 

EDIT: Yeah, here we go, from Jeremy himself:

 

There are two programs. The first is the sweepstakes for 3 Jeeps that will be given out this year. It's a standard drawing.

 

The second program is the 4,000 die-cast yellow jeep wranglers with their own custom travel bug attached. There will be a monthly contest starting June 1st through December 25th where a prize will be given for the best photo, and another award for the best essay relating to these found travel bugs.

 

Jeep were really psyched about promoting the activity and they wanted to create a unique concept that would allow the largest number of geocachers to participate. We discouraged the placement of caches due to the limited accessibility to find them (and the "Mad Mad World" phenomenon we've seen in the past).

 

We'll be distributing many of the bugs through local organizations, and another 1,000 will be available on the web site for people to request and have shipped to them for free. When we start taking requests, we'll have a section on the http://jeep.geocaching.com web site.

 

The current goal for these bugs are just to travel around and swap stories, but Jeep is thinking about giving some of them specific goals. If you want to come up with any ideas, I'd love to hear about them and will pass on the info to Jeep.

 

Rodale, the publishers of many outdoor magazines such as Backpacker, Bicycling, etc. are also involved, and are promoting the idea through these and other magazines.

 

From this thread.

I just did some snooping and, indeed, there are 5001.

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Lets all create fake ebay accounts and start a bidding war.

It worked (for a while) for the guy that was selling his ex-wife's wedding dress a few months ago. eBay cancelled the inflated bids.

 

The Wedding Dress guy got his 15 minutes. brazzlebooks does not desire the same! But then, Wedding Dress Guy's auction was the funniest thing I read in some time. YJTB auction is just sad!

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How does he know there are 5001?  I know with some digging around, you can figure that out, but wouldn't he about have to be a cacher to know that?

I thought it was obvious the seller is a cacher...

How is it obvious? He could have heard about this, gone to the Geocaching website and looked for nearby caches that had a YJTB in it and taken it. You don't need a GPS to find many caches, and I've read several logs that showed there was a TB in it, and then someone who went to the cache looking for it didn't find it there.

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They haven't answered my question. I asked them how they would transfer ownership since when the auction was over all they would do is transfer possession and someone else would still own it.

 

As for the price. Wow, I've got 200.00 in Jeeps I've been trying to get to Idaho Falls. Before this is over it's going to be enough to buy a Jeep.

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You know what? I'm wondering if the 'question' asked by the person in Sweden was for real. I mean, they're 'willing to pay $75 or more'? If other interested bidders know that there is someone out there that is willing to pay that much, then that will drive the bidding up even more. Or at least that possibility exists. I'm kind of speculative about that question...

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That's tortured logic. First we have a rule that says no commercial items. Then you argue that the "king" can bend that rule at his will therefore selected commercial caches are OK.

 

What kind of a rule is that?

 

Anyway this is not an apiary and you can't dress this up as nice little green things that grow. This is a hard core commercial transaction between Grounspeak and Daimler - $82,000 in vehicles plus all other costs..

 

Don't get me wrong. I would completely respect any Jeep TB I found and pass it on for the many reasons stated here because I know others who are interested would like to "find" one. But that's me. However, others might not feel that way because this whole thing is commercial. So getting back to the Topic's point, a little more "selling", on Ebay or whereever is not that far of a stretch and calling that person a thief is a little too much. Don't you think?

 

Alan

Someone, Groundspeak, E-bay, or Jeep should remove, or have removed, the YJTB from e-bay, and the persons accounts on both e-bay and Groundspeak, to include Geocaching.com, should be deleted and the IP address locked out.

 

If you do not like how they run their site, do not use their site. It really is that simple. Now if all the "purists' want to belly up to the bar and donate $1000.00 each, every month, to keep this site going, then hey, they might have a reason to bit&h. I also suggest that the "purist's" post a note on ALL their cache listing pages and simply request that a YJTB NOT be placed in ANY cache that they OWN. That is the only control they have. But if they are not exercising this simple action, then they are just yelling to make noise, and do not really want to do anything about it themselves, within the rules that is.

 

Now, the YJTB's are approved by Groundspeak, and do not break any rule of the game. You are using the same weak, and unsubstantiated, winy, excuse, as your only argument. I think Mopar cleared your misinterpretation on the rules up. Now you need to read what has been in front of your eyes the whole time. Where in the rules does it say that commercialization is not, nor will it ever be allowed? Show us where it says what you are quoting.

 

Where does it say, bring this YJTB into your local dealer for a free test drive? Bring this YJTB into your local dealer for a free carwash? Bring this YJTB in to your local dealer for a chance to win? How many people, in the Geocaching.com community, do you really think are going to see one of these and say, “dadgum, I never thought about buying a jeep, but now I am going to run right down there and buy one”?

 

Going by "tortured logic" we should not place anything in a cache that has a manufacturers name on it. So I guess cannot leave a Time-ex watch in a cache as a FTF prize? We cannot post pictures of ourselves, or others, if the manufacturer tag is visible in the photo? The YJTB's have NOTHING to do with the Jeep vehicle give away, so we cannot use any perceived value of them when trying to calculate the price they paid to have the YJTB's on Groundspeak. Stop confusing the issues.

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This activity isn't supposed to be about commerial activity.

 

...he said, posting to the commercial enterprise's forum boards.

Pot...meet kettle

Sorry, it's not so simple as you seem to think. I don't deny the first poster's comment to be true, I just pointed out the irony of where it's placed.

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