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Skates the boundary. But might make for a heck of a story. Given that even after the sale it's still owned by Grounspeak or Jeep (not sure which) it's stolen property. And yet they are meant to be out in the world adventuring and if it finds it's way back into a cache all is good in the world. Profiteering notwistanding.

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I really don't know how a court would treat geocaching when it comes to "personal property" law.

 

You may *claim* to own your TBs but really, it's a donation to the community's game...once it's out of your hands, it would probably be arguable in court that you let it into the great beyond.

 

How many judges are going to hear that you left something in a box in the woods with the intention of having a complete stranger find it and take it...and then still give you some sort of property/custody of it. Regardless of the logging aspect in geocaching/bookcrossing/etc....it's still something you left with the intention of someone else taking...knowing full well that they could and do sometimes disappear into sock drawers, dog's mouths, ebay, and so on.

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It would be interesting if TPTB went through their registration records and looked for the last name Brazzle, in Salina, Kansas...

 

Also if they do consider it to be 'stolen goods' (and I can see legal grey area there) then they could petition eBay to close the auction and ban the seller. I don't see that as likely though.

 

Or they could enter the winning bid, and then leave some very brutal feedback for the seller. ;)

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Also if they do consider it to be 'stolen goods' (and I can see legal grey area there) then they could petition eBay to close the auction and ban the seller. I don't see that as likely though.

I dunno. That was my first thought. I've never sold on eBay, but I'm sure they have a policy against stolen goods. Though I assume some percentage of goods for auction are stolen, they're mostly unprovably or untracably stolen. This thing, though, he's more or less copping to: either he's lying about it being a game piece, or it's stolen. Either way, I bet someone from the site has standing to complain.

 

Barring that...yes, it might be worth a few bob to buy it and give him blistering feedback. Something about an act of spite just begs for an equal and opposite act of spite.

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About the "stolen goods" - I would agree if it would be an ordinary TB bought by a user for $4.25, but in my opinion, YJTBs are promotional giveaways, not much different from limited edition soda pops. I have received one YJTB from Groundspeak when buying geocoins and TB tags and there were no instructions or "license to use" which would prohibit me to sell it.

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The title at first glance tells me it's the first of a series. But looking up #0001 someone is Indiana has it.

 

That's not to mention the first in the series is #0000 and has not been released.

 

I think I did read somewhere that the TB's remain the property of Jeep until such time the contest is over. I'm sure they've researched it.

 

eBay's UA states:

5.1 Listing Description. You must be legally able to sell the item(s) you list for sale on the Site. You must describe your item and all terms of sale on the listing page of the Site. Your listings may only include text descriptions, graphics, pictures and other content relevant to the sale of that item. All listed items must be listed in an appropriate category. All items in multiple item listings must be identical.

 

So, if it's still Jeep property can they sell the item? My point is the auction is for selling the item and the seller has no way to actually hand over the ownership. There is nothing implying the auction to move the TB, it's not being presented as a service. So, Jeep v eBay seller? Anyone shot off an email to the contest promoters, yet?

Edited by CoyoteRed
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What a jerk.....Guys like this really p@ss me off.....

 

I am a member of ebay and emailed him the following email:

 

"I am writing in reference to the Yellow jeep Travel Bug you are offering on ebay.

 

As a new Geocacher myself, I have found 3 of these in the last month or so, and moved them on as intended....they are not all that hard to come by in my neck of the woods.

 

But please keep in mind that your stealing these from a cache and selling them (and yes, it is stealing) is illegal and therefore will be reported to ebay.

 

For you to take advantage of folks' honesty (the people who set up and play this game) really sucks...excuse the language, but it sums up my feelings about your actions.

 

It makes me laugh to see that you say that you cannot giveout the tracking number because "in the long run the authenticity of the actual cache page for the bug would be tarnished.". You are in fact ruining the game for everyone.

 

Be assured that ebay will be asked to investigate this sale and your account.

 

Sincerely, "

 

I also filed a report with ebay via their strolen property reporting form.....

 

"The seller is selling an item that has been stolen from an official Geocaching.com game location.....the item being sold is intended to be passed from location to location and never be resold. The seller has stolen the item and is attempting to resell it for profit. The item is copyrighted by Daimler Chrysler as part of a promotional campaign."

 

And finally, I sent an email to the current high bidder, 86 vette.....asking him to reconsider his bid.

 

I know its not a huge deal...but people like this really chap my hide. And it IS stealing, what this guy is doing. He is ruining the hunt for those in the game to have fun....

 

Scumbags. No conscience at all.

 

shadango

Edited by shadango
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I think one of those geocaching reporters should buy it, write-off the cost on their expense account, write an article (being sure to flame the culprit), and put it in the museum at the head office (the shelf in Jeremy's luxurious private toidy). :blink:

Even if we were to buy it, we still would probably never know the actual name of the seller. I also wouldn't like the idea of putting money into this person's pocket.

 

Also for the record...none of the reporters at Today's Cacher.com have expense accounts. We have expenses...just no accounts. :D

 

El Diablo

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Unfortunatley there will always be a jerk or two that will try to profit from something like this. And the world is full of idiots with more money than sense that will buy. The best option in this case is for as many people to complain to ebay as possible and try to get the auction shut down. Of course that won't keep the guy from going to another auction site and listing it again.

 

My understanding of travel bugs is that, even though they are out in the wild, they are still the property of the owner. The owner purchases the tag, the object it's attatched to and sets the goal. Then other cachers are generous enough to help the TB on it's journey. But it is still the owners.

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As for the legal aspects. I've been tempted to bid 200.00 on the thing for s***s and giggles. After all when it's sold to me, it's still a TB and they can't actually transfer ownership and because they can't do that in any legal sence the transaction is void, but the fee has to be discussed with eBay.

 

It's still tempting.

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I've been tempted to bid 200.00 on the thing for s***s and giggles.

But can your eBay account stand another 'neg' feedback? Something to consider. You could petition eBay to have the 'neg' removed, but it's my understanding that this is about as easy as getting a new locationless cache approved on a military base.

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I've been tempted to bid 200.00 on the thing for s***s and giggles.

But can your eBay account stand another 'neg' feedback? Something to consider. You could petition eBay to have the 'neg' removed, but it's my understanding that this is about as easy as getting a new locationless cache approved on a military base.

Open a New account.

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I see someone has asked a question:

 

Questions from other buyers for this listing     

 

Q: Hi, I'm willing to pay up to $75 (maybe even a little more) for this travel bug. I'm living in a remote part of Sweden now, and this is probably the only way I'll ever get my hands on one of these things! I just want to know what the tracking # for it is. I don't want to log it, I just want to make sure it works before I spend so much money. Thanks!  Answered on Jul-20-04 

 

A: Hello, I assure you this is one of the authentic 5001 Yellow Jeep Travel Bugs, and it has a tracking number. But, if I gave the number to one person I would have to give it to everyone, and in the long run the authenticity of the actual cache page for the bug would be tarnished. Ebay.com has tools in place, such as the feedback progam, to try to insure that transactions are honest on their site. That is why I sold this item through my regular ebay account, with 44 positive feedbacks and 0 negative feedbacks, to help show that this is a legitimate offer. I hope this helps you make your decision, and good luck! - Brazzlebooks 

 

So, if you ask a question through the eBay site, it shows what you ask, and what the seller's response is? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......

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I spend minimal time on Ebay, but noticed on this item that there is a Q&A section. In fact a Sweedish cacher asked for the TB# just to have an opportunity to log one and was rejected. Anyone up for a game of flood the seller's inbox with questions? :blink:

edited for clarity: I find the whole issue sad :D , depressing :D , and offensive :D . This activity isn't supposed to be about commerial activity :D .

Edited by wimseyguy
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So, if you ask a question through the eBay site, it shows what you ask, and what the seller's response is?  Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......

I haven't sold or bought anything on eBay in a few weeks, but this is new to me.

I actually asked a question for an eBay auction yesterday (completely unrelated to this auction). It sent me an email copy that was sent to the seller which included the following text:

 

Please respond to the question on eBay by clicking the button below. You'll have the option to display your response directly on the listing.

 

I assume the seller checked (or didn't uncheck) the option to add the question/response to the listing as we see it in this auction. Certainly something to be aware of now that you send questions to the seller which might be publicly displayed.

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Personally I don't think that these YJTBs would ever be worth $10.  It's not like they're coveted the world over, even if it is 1 of 5001.

For a geocaching addict that wants a jeep4x4.gif displayed on his User Stats page, I guess it's worth $10.

 

If I had an extra one, I'd send it along to them for free!!

Edited by Team DEMP
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These posts about this being stolen goods have been almost amusing to read.

Keep this in perspective, guys.

 

It's a toy car. It's actual worth is negligible regardless of the winning bid amount. They're placed out in boxes in the woods for the specific purpose of people taking them. You can't actually expect every single one of them to stay in circulation forever.

 

Okay, if it's turning geocaching into a "commercial" venture...but then what about all those people who make signature buttons, coins, carabiners, etc...or for that matter, the Groundspeak store?

 

Relax.

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I'm not that familiar with this Jeep TB thing. But it seems to me that the whole thing is commercialization. Daimler Chrysler is using Geocaching. And Groundspeak is apparently allowing and getting paid by Jeep. Or if not getting paid directly allowing it for publicity to promote Geocaching. Why is everyone getting all exited by someone else trying to make a buck off of it too. This is America. And if someone else is willing to pay for it, what business is it of anyone?

 

Everyone involved beside the regular cachers are in to make money - Groundspeak, Daimler and yes the ebay guy too. Frankly, Daimler and Groundspeak mght like the idea of ebay. It provides additional publicity. Articles and additional notoriety would be even better. The more noise, the more publicity. Buy Jeep, Go Geocaching. Rah rah rah!

 

No I'm not selling it nor am I buying it.

 

Alan :blink:

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Frankly, Daimler and Groundspeak mght like the idea of ebay. It provides additional publicity. Articles and additional notoriety would be even better. The more noise, the more publicity. Buy Jeep, Go Geocaching. Rah rah rah!

 

You DO have a point there! What is it they say? "There's no such thing as bad publicity." :blink:

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I dunno if Jeep would be all for it or not. There are usually pretty strict laws regarding sweepstakes like this. From what I understand, the whole reason FL is not part of the YJTB deal is it wasn't even worth it for Jeep to attempt to comply with that state's laws. Finding the free YJTB is your key to entering one part of the sweepstakes. I'm not sure how Jeep or the state the seller lives in would look at someone selling chances in the sweepstakes. As far as I know, selling chances to win changes it from a sweepstakes to a lottery, and a whole different set of laws and permits apply.

Edited by Mopar
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I'm not that familiar with this Jeep TB thing. But it seems to me that the whole thing is commercialization. Daimler Chrysler is using Geocaching. And Groundspeak is apparently allowing and getting paid by Jeep. Or if not getting paid directly allowing it for publicity to promote Geocaching. Why is everyone getting all exited by someone else trying to make a buck off of it too. This is America. And if someone else is willing to pay for it, what business is it of anyone?

 

Everyone involved beside the regular cachers are in to make money - Groundspeak, Daimler and yes the ebay guy too. Frankly, Daimler and Groundspeak mght like the idea of ebay. It provides additional publicity. Articles and additional notoriety would be even better. The more noise, the more publicity. Buy Jeep, Go Geocaching. Rah rah rah!

 

No I'm not selling it nor am I buying it.

 

Alan :blink:

I agree that America is all aboit making money, it seems...but that doesnt make stealing money ok....

 

And by stealing the TB from the cache and selling it for profit, the guy is wrong.

 

Can I go to your cache and take something I like to turn around and sell it?? Maybe some would liken that to a distribution network like Walmart :D but keep in mind that all the parties involved there WANT to buy and sell the item....

 

In this case, the item is intended to simply pass between people whilst geocaching.....stealing and selling the TB violates the concept of the contest....

 

Its not an earth-shattering issue, I agree..but this guy is a crook and would probably steal from his grandma to make a buck.

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I dunno if Jeep would be all for it or not. There are usually pretty strict laws regarding sweepstakes like this. From what I understand, the whole reason FL is not part of the YJTB deal is it wasn't even worth it for Jeep to attempt to comply with that state's laws. Finding the free YJTB is your key to entering one part of the sweepstakes. I'm not sure how Jeep or the state the seller lives in would look at someone selling chances in the sweepstakes. As far as I know, selling chances to win changes it from a sweepstakes to a lottery, and a whole different set of laws and permits apply.

And yet another good point made. Since this is a gamepiece in a sweepstakes, and there are some technicalities here, to be sure, it seems to me that eBay wouldn't even want to be involved, and would pull the auction.

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WHAT IF, I say, what if:

this is not a t.b., but the guy took just any tag, bought a $2 jeep, made up the picture...

Well, then, the guy is STILL a crook....

 

Either way he is ripping someone off...either the person looking to buy a genuine TB (who, in my opinion is a crook too...go out and find one like anyone else) or the overall population within the geocaching world....

 

Just my $.02

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These posts about this being stolen goods have been almost amusing to read.

Keep this in perspective, guys.

 

It's a toy car. It's actual worth is negligible regardless of the winning bid amount. They're placed out in boxes in the woods for the specific purpose of people taking them. You can't actually expect every single one of them to stay in circulation forever.

 

Okay, if it's turning geocaching into a "commercial" venture...but then what about all those people who make signature buttons, coins, carabiners, etc...or for that matter, the Groundspeak store?

 

Relax.

True....this is certainly not an earth shattering issue.

 

I think what is disturbing here is NOT that a TB is for sale.....in today's world where EVERYTHING is for sale, it comes as no shock....and it IS just a toy car.....

 

No, it is more the issue of someone who is involved in Geocaching enough to be able to go and find one abusing the game for profit. THAT , I think, is what makes this guy human scum. I am a newbie and have a lot to learn, but it would seem that this game is based on trust...and this guy violates that.....again, not surprised that this happens, just commenting.

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Hmmm.... all this talk of theft....

 

Groundspeak mailed me [a newbie, unknown cacher] 20 jeeps with no instruction as to what I should do with them. Some would say that they were given to me, that I in fact now own them.

 

So that means I'm free to do with them whatever I choose. I just happend to choose to put them in caches and give them to fellow geocachers expecting them to do the same...

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These posts about this being stolen goods have been almost amusing to read.

Keep this in perspective, guys.

 

It's a toy car. It's actual worth is negligible regardless of the winning bid amount. They're placed out in boxes in the woods for the specific purpose of people taking them. You can't actually expect every single one of them to stay in circulation forever.

I would agree that stolen seems like a pretty strong word under the circumstances. That being said whether the value is negligible or not it is not that persons to sell. I hate to make this overly simplistic but, is selling something that you don't own is right or wrong. I don't think that value enters into the picture. If I walk into Wal-Mart and pocket a Hotwheel to sell on ebay does the negligible value make it ok?

 

Maybe I'm getting off topic here...but either way I will be quiet on the issue from this point on.

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In the rules, it says.....

 

Sponsor reserves the right in its sole discretion to cancel or suspend any portion of the Contest should causes beyond the control of Sponsor corrupt the administration, security or proper play of the Contest...

 

Technically, since there is no purchase necessary to enter, then wouldn't this be 'improper play'? No, this really isn't going to affect the outcome of the game, but still, what if this happens to be the winning entry, and the winner 'bought' the entry? No way to prove this, but still, it's the principle of the thing!

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