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I Take Back Absoulutely Everything Nice


fly46
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Wow what a stinky mess. fly46 has been around for a year, but is new to Nashville I hope that they can settle the differences on this cache, and other issues that have appeared in other threads. Otherwise fly46 might get added to the list that includes upin#!@%^, ringbone, subigo, etc. around here. Let's hope cooler heads prevail and that doesn't happpen. :D

I mean do the forums really need another whippping post? :D

And speaking of repeat forum business-this is my first NORMal post ever. ;)

Edited by wimseyguy
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somehow I think that he's bringing that into here, too.

I thought I was following along pretty well here. But based on this comment maybe I not quite sure who was responsible for bringing this issue up in the forum to begin with.

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Well, the approvers have been known to miss things before that they should have caught. That doesn't necessarily mean they're ok. I would never approve a cache in a GATED community (the gates are there for a reason, right?)...Even if you actually got the homeowner association's express permission to place it there, I'd still be concerned about the prying eyes of the neighbors. (I live in a gated community, I know what they're like!)

 

Had you sent me the same email you sent to the approver, I'm pretty sure I would have stopped dealing with you directly too. Sorry, but you don't win any sympathy points from me.

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Sax wrote:

...words like "audacity", make the tone negative and accusing instead of concerned and confused.

This is so true. It's difficult for many of us to communicate in person.

 

It's nearly impossible for some of us to communicate with the printed word. Words must be chosen very carefully and crafted artistically to express our true intents.

 

And the nature of the printed word allows plenty of time for anyone to apply different interpretations.

 

A good rule of thumb would be to write, relax, think, and then re-write.

...I emailed the site the minute he archived my cache for not answering his question
I think knee-jerk reactions get us into more trouble than anything else.

 

Ya know what I mean? ;):D

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It's nearly impossible for some of us to communicate with the printed word. Words must be chosen very carefully and crafted artistically to express our true intents.

 

And the nature of the printed word allows plenty of time for anyone to apply different interpretations.

So true. A team member and I volleyed several e-mails back and forth, each misunderstanding the other and elevating the situation and emotions. No matter how carefully I scripted my replies, her immediate attitude and surroundings clouded my intentions... Finally I started putting notes at the top on how to read the following message: "The following e-mail is written with a tone of concern and confusion..."

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This is so true.  It's difficult for many of us to communicate in person.

 

It's nearly impossible for some of us to communicate with the printed word.  Words must be chosen very carefully and  crafted artistically to express our true intents.

 

And the nature of the printed word allows plenty of time for anyone to apply different interpretations.

 

A good rule of thumb would be to write, relax, think, and then re-write.

...I emailed the site the minute he archived my cache for not answering his question
I think knee-jerk reactions get us into more trouble than anything else.

 

Ya know what I mean? :PB)

No I don't understand, and don't take that tone with me Mister! Such audacity! B):D

 

Back to on topic -

The smilies are there for a reason... If you put alot of B) in your posts, its clear what you are expressing. Other times, such as on cache pages and emails its harder to get your emotions expressed with only words, so just um... do what Sept1c_tank says... B);)

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So, now more of the story comes out. Without a couple dozen markwells, let me remind you that bashing an approver by saying they have a personal grudge against you isn't the best way to go about resolving an issue. You are still implying that the approver insulted you and made rude comments, yet we have no evidence of that here. Still sounds to me like this could have been resolved had you simply answered the question. Why don't you want to answer the approver's question? Will the answer you give make your cache unapprovable? Sounds like maybe that's the case, to me. Trying to slip one past the approver and got nailed on it, but still trying to avoid the issue. Here's another suggestion: Answer the question he asked, then report back to us with the response. Include the question, your response, and the response from the approver. Otherwise, drop it and close the thread. One last bit of advice: Next time you open a thread complaining about unfair treatment, come forward with all the information, not just your biased view. Folks that have started threads like this in the past have always left out key points of the issue, biasing the thread against the approver. Once the full story is known, they end up looking rather foolish. ;)

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I would never approve a cache in a GATED community (the gates are there for a reason, right?)...Even if you actually got the homeowner association's express permission to place it there, I'd still be concerned about the prying eyes of the neighbors.

Why?

 

I know of an upperscale planned community where one of those responsible is putting out the caches there. The foot trails goes right along folks' back yards. Talk about out in the open!

 

Plus, the OP said the gates are open during the day. That should make it clear the general public is not discouraged from entering in during the day. If not, what not just keep the gates closed at all times.

 

There's nothing wrong with a cache in a gated community, especially with proper permission.

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QUOTE (fly46 @ Jul 19 2004, 10:42 AM)

My answer to him - PRIVATELY - about him 'vague'ly responding to MY question was the following:

QUOTE

I asked a simple question, and you had the audacity to not answer my question and instead up and archive my cache for no apparent reason other than I was TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ISSUE SUDDENLY WAS WITH MY CACHE. And then I asked you what rule there was against my cache being placed where it was and your response is to sprout something about levels of service?

 

The door swings both ways, and you seem to be hopping back and forth to both sides of it.

 

Well this explains a lot. Had you been respectful in your messages to him, there would have been no need for this thread. Instead, you made an attack on him, so he washed his hands of the whole mess and asked you to contact his boss instead.

 

Now, before you flame me for calling your message an attack on him, let me explain. It is very hard to convey "tone" in written text. Most of your statements in and of themselves are perfectly fine. However, grouping them together presents them in a certain context that, when coupled with words like "audacity", make the tone negative and accusing instead of concerned and confused.

 

This post has been edited by Team GPSaxophone on Jul 19 2004, 08:50 AM

You have just shown us, in your very own words, that you took an attitude into this and addressed him in a hostile way. Is this how you normally speak to people?

How about:

I would gladly answer any question.  I have the permission of the association of the community and the land owner.  I will have ready access to service the cache because I have a gate pass.  Daily visitor passes are available at no charge for visiting cachers.  I can easily address any other issues which concern you.
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So we finally get the communications that seemed to trigger the archiving and now everyone is telling the OP that he handled it wrong. I don't disagree, but I can understand why the OP is getting frustrated. Some folks just hit the enter key without stepping back, taking a breathe, and re-reading the reply from the point of view of the receiver.

 

He was upset and it showed, but to me, it doesn't justify archiving his cache unless it should have been archived. If it's this response alone that is the cause, then I don't understand why it was archived.

 

I don't know the behind the scenes approval process, but maybe what needs to happen is if an approver has an issue, another approver (random, available, whatever) is asked to mediate and address the specific incident. It might make things better in the long run without always have some forum thread when a cache is archived.

 

It's human nature to react to how you think someone is attacking you and it (as was the case here) seems to escalate rapidly when there's no face-to-face communications.

 

In the hundreds of emails I deal with a day, I experience this all the time, and in many cases, picking up the phone and having the same conversation, or getting up and visiting the individual resolves things quickly and without the back and forth of an email. Unfortunately, that's not possible here, but maybe another individual brought in could mediate and accomplish the same thing.

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I know of an upperscale planned community where one of those responsible is putting out the caches there. The foot trails goes right along folks' back yards. Talk about out in the open!

 

Plus, the OP said the gates are open during the day. That should make it clear the general public is not discouraged from entering in during the day. If not, what not just keep the gates closed at all times.

 

There's nothing wrong with a cache in a gated community, especially with proper permission.

The fact that the gates are open during the day DOESN'T imply permission to place a cache there. Can you get in there? Sure, but that's all it means.

 

By your logic, I could place a cache in your front yard so long as there is no gate and so long as you never told me I couldn't place a cache there.

 

A GATED community generally means that they are PRIVATE roads, PRIVATE property, and PRIVATE recreation areas. Which means permission of the property owner and/or homeowner's association would likely be needed. Some community CC&R's stipulate limits on the entry of guests, so even if the cache is on someone's personal property (i.e., their front porch), it might not be kosher.

 

I know that in such communities, strange people and strange behaviors are quickly noted. Like I said, I live in a place like that. I know how things go. Strangers snooping around in the bushes won't go over well no matter what level of permission they have.

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I don't know the behind the scenes approval process, but maybe what needs to happen is if an approver has an issue, another approver (random, available, whatever) is asked to mediate and address the specific incident. It might make things better in the long run without always have some forum thread when a cache is archived.

 

This is what happened to me, when I couldn't get a certain cache approved. I disagreed with the approver, and we went back and forth with it for a while in emails. I like to think that we were both polite and respectful to each other, during the process, but just had very different opinions on the matter.

 

Finally, the approver reffered the whole thing to someone else within geocaching, whom the approver thought had more knowledge on the subject. Case closed, I moved on in life. It happens. And I have placed several more caches since then with no problem. ;)

Edited by Ambrosia
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The fact that the gates are open during the day DOESN'T imply permission to place a cache there.
I never said it did. I just said it didn't exclude permission.

 

By your logic, I could place a cache in your front yard so long as there is no gate and so long as you never told me I couldn't place a cache there.

Hardly. If fact, I find it hard to comprehend where you even got that.

 

Might want to re-read my post. You might get my point that just because it is a gated community doesn't preclude a cache being placed there. Many parks are gated, does that preclude access? Nope. It only restricts access. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

But then again there are people who will always think "not in my back yard."

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The fact that the gates are open during the day DOESN'T imply permission to place a cache there.
I never said it did. I just said it didn't exclude permission.

 

By your logic, I could place a cache in your front yard so long as there is no gate and so long as you never told me I couldn't place a cache there.

Hardly. If fact, I find it hard to comprehend where you even got that.

 

Might want to re-read my post. You might get my point that just because it is a gated community doesn't preclude a cache being placed there. Many parks are gated, does that preclude access? Nope. It only restricts access. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

But then again there are people who will always think "not in my back yard."

Okay, you got me there. Maybe I read too much into your previous statement.

 

I also didn't mean to suggest that you couldn't put a cache in a gated community, just that given the likelihood of some sort of problem, it's probably unwise to do so. I would be very hesitant to go searching for a cache in a place like that.

 

Now, I have other things to worry about than people caching in my "private" neighborhood...but many people don't. As the OP said, the person who complained about the cache wasn't the person who had the problems finding the cache...The most likely scenario that comes to my mind is that another cacher was accosted by one of the residents or a security guard while in the act. That could in all probability be completely wrong, but that's the sort of thing I envision.

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A few points to note:

 

A cache or two I have found have been inside the "gate" of a gated community. Both times, the gated community also provides a nature walk/forested area for its residents and day-guests. I have run into residents on the trails and have never had a problem with geocaching in "their" woods. So long as the cache was established correctly (permission of land owner, etc) then there should not be a problem with a "gated community" placement. Current rules apply...no need for new exceptions or warnings about the gating of a community.

 

Secondly, customer service is a one-way street. Given the perception of an irate client (I say this to include the e-mail style transactions...obviously in person the perception is easier to verify), a business should first still attempt to meet their needs and if that does not work, then they should transfer them to someone higher in the system. Sounds like that was done here, albeit with a relatively short "attempt to meet their needs". The approver was not direct about their problem with this cache (that was not a problem when they approved it to begin with). The hider wasn't giving much slack.

 

I imagine an e-mail conversation of:

 

"did you get permission for this cache?"

"yes..."

 

"are you sure, because I"m noticing something I don't like...is it in the woods or on a home's property?"

"in the woods..."

 

"Really, because I'm sensing something about gates...but not bill gates..."

"look now, just what are you getting at???" "

 

"This cache has been archived, please e-mail approvers@GS.com"

"Do what??"

 

That can get old fast. Final solution: Approvers, act more business-like. I don't think fly would have had a problem if they got an e-mail that said: "After approval of your cache, it was brought to GC.com's attention that your cache lies beyond the border of a gated community. Our policy is to require the hider to obtain permission for some public lands and all non-public land that they place a cache on. We would like reassurance that this permission is obtained before we reopen your cache listing to the public. Please help reassure us by providing some evidence that this is not private land that you have not obtained permission to be on. Thanks."

 

Mail merge what was brought to GC.com's attention and why that's a problem and what the solution can be. Ta-Da.

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As I have said, all I can see is what is on the cache page. I think the log says a lot regarding issues with the cache.

 

I parked near the tennis courts and followed my gps over and right up next to an apartment building unit. I felt very uncomfortable searching for a cache right under someone's window. I wondered if it was your apartment, I also wondered if the coordinates were off and maybe the cache was really hidden in a grove of trees about 100 feet away. I didn't find the cache there and as I was following my gps back to the building, I saw the window shades move. I had been spotted. Ok, I'm thinking security is about to show up. No one's coming out and saying, "Hey, are you geocaching?", so I got out of there. On my way home, I reread the clue and it made me think of someplace I didn't look. But that would be a very bold hide! I'll try again, after a few others have found it.

Thanks anyway,

 

The cache owner adjusted the coordinates 60 feet, which it would appear would not get it in the grove of trees. The name of the cache and hint implies it was on a fence at the "front of the building".

 

A cache located near a fence maybe at the front of a apartment building in a gated community... it just sounds like trouble to me. Here again, I don't know all the facts.

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I'm surprised a gated community isn't an automatic no. I certainly wouldn't peddle Girl Scout cookies or subscriptions to The Watchtower in one, let alone hide Tupperware.

There are gated communities and gated communities. Some are private, some the only private part that makes them different from any other neighborhood is the gate.

 

Like a lot of things, it depends.

 

Edit: Ironicaly a sticking point that got me a cache rejected, didn't come up the next time I submitted a cache where I had the same issue and same sticking point. Sometimes it's who you deal with and that can make all the differnece. If for no other reasons different personalities clash and mesh to different degrees.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I know I would have a hard time trying to find this cache. I do not feel comfortable being that close to someone's property, let alone right next to thier window.

 

There is a cache in Fort Collins that is hidden on a storm grate. It is within about 20 feet of someone's house and the grate is actually on some land that says, "Property of So-and-so Church". I know it doesn't say "No Trespassing", but when I see a sign that says "Property of...", I kind of relate it to a no tresspassing sign.

 

Anyways, I didn't feel comfortable looking for the cache as I was being watched by the person whose house was only a few feet away.

 

I prefer the caches where the only things watching you are the wildlife.

 

Brad

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Obviously, the cacher who logged the DNF quoted above needs to think more about what they are doing. Hiders are not the only ones who might do something dumb with regards to geocache placement. Even *IF* the coordinates led you under the window of an apartment up against the building wall, you don't *have* to go over there.

 

I think some of the more suburban/rural geocachers might need to try some urban non-park caches. We had one that led you into a bookstore! Quite a few are placed on public areas opposite a fence and a property line for someone's home. I actually enjoy these more than altoids-in-the-woods caches because of the sneak factor in finding things that everyone else passes by every day without notice.

 

But regardless, the finders have to use their heads too. They need to think more about whether where their GPSr is pointing is reasonable and comfortable, as opposed to walking head down staring at the moving arrow and then only look up once they reach the 50 ft range....to find themselves in someone's backyard, etc.

 

The hint said something about a fence and a fence in front of a building seems like a fine place for a magnetic micro or similar cache. We have a number of them in Boston and they almost always net a "crafty hide" or "darn it, you got me looking for a while"...

 

I think the problem isn't always the hider's fault.

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But regardless, the finders have to use their heads too. They need to think more about whether where their GPSr is pointing is reasonable and comfortable, as opposed to walking head down staring at the moving arrow and then only look up once they reach the 50 ft range....to find themselves in someone's backyard, etc.

You're really stretchin' on that one...how can you blame anything on the cacher...you see you're headed under a window - so you randomly pick another place to look?? Get real. And if quitting is the other option - then you'd better archive that cache. No one else can be the one who set up this situation. Going home was smart.

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No.. He asked me where the cache was, I gave exact directions to the cache's hiding spot, asked more specific questions about where it was hidden and I responded with "What is the issue with the cache?"

 

He asked where the cache was and you gave him directions ;) . What good does that do him? He wants to know WHERE it is, not how to get there. You said it was in a gated community, which would set off the alarm whistle in any approver's head. Most gated communities are private and don't cotton to having strangers wander around. So he asked you for more info about the location and you responded wit "What is the issue with the cache?". That is what HE was trying to find out.

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Secondly, customer service is a one-way street. Given the perception of an irate client (I say this to include the e-mail style transactions...obviously in person the perception is easier to verify), a business should first still attempt to meet their needs and if that does not work, then they should transfer them to someone higher in the system. Sounds like that was done here, albeit with a relatively short "attempt to meet their needs". The approver was not direct about their problem with this cache (that was not a problem when they approved it to begin with). The hider wasn't giving much slack.

 

I imagine an e-mail conversation of:

 

"did you get permission for this cache?"

"yes..."

 

"are you sure, because I"m noticing something I don't like...is it in the woods or on a home's property?"

"in the woods..."

 

"Really, because I'm sensing something about gates...but not bill gates..."

"look now, just what are you getting at???" "

 

"This cache has been archived, please e-mail approvers@GS.com"

"Do what??"

 

That can get old fast. Final solution: Approvers, act more business-like. I don't think fly would have had a problem if they got an e-mail that said: "After approval of your cache, it was brought to GC.com's attention that your cache lies beyond the border of a gated community. Our policy is to require the hider to obtain permission for some public lands and all non-public land that they place a cache on. We would like reassurance that this permission is obtained before we reopen your cache listing to the public. Please help reassure us by providing some evidence that this is not private land that you have not obtained permission to be on. Thanks."

 

Mail merge what was brought to GC.com's attention and why that's a problem and what the solution can be. Ta-Da.

That's pretty much went on... A few non-direct questions with answers and then it was like.. Could you tell me what the point was. Had I ever been told "we have an issue with this because of... and the belief is.... " it would have solved alot of problems. If a cache isn't going to get approved, it isn't going to get approved, but why seem like an a** about it? Communication is, unfortunately, a dying art. Instead of saying precicely what we need to say, we fail at conveying a message and something gets blown out of the water like this.

 

 

To clarify other questions which were asked:

As for the question about where it was... I was asked a question ("how/where is this hidden.. your note said it was hid in a fence") which I took to mean details about the hide itself, since in my reviewer note, I told the approver that the cache was sitting on a fence... My response to asking more about the hide was that when you're standing at the cords, you're two steps away from a white picket fence, which has a ledge on the back of it, and the cache is sitting on the ledge in a pill bottle to the far left of this fence.

 

As for permission, yes, I did ask myself before I hid my cache at my house if it would be okay for someone to be outside my dwelling. :P (There are at least three other cachers here in central Tennessee that have caches outside their home. One even looks like dog poop. I figured if three other people had those caches, then I could as well.) The community is open during office hours at the minimum, which are 9 am - 7 pm, and all seven days of the week, and I do believe that the pool is open to the public (our pool party signs invited the public in, too). The gate simply serves for security at night/when it's dark for the residents here - this isn't like the million dollar mansions that were two streets over from GeoWoodstock :D that are gated so Oprah Winfrey's parents don't have pictures of their house taken. I took my mother to the airport yesterday morning at 7 am - a Sunday - and the gate to our complex was already open then. (And alot of good our gates do anyway, a few weeks ago a guy on his 21st birthday followed someone in, drunk as crap, lost control of his car outside my unit, hit a truck, which sent him across the drive, he totaled 7 vehicles, hopped out of his car, ran for a mile or more and only got caught because one guy who had just bought - and not insured - a van saw the kid total it and took off after him)

Also, no guards/etc around here... Just a couple women who work in the office and four guys on maintenance.. If we were routinely patroled by police, I'd've thought a little differently about placing one here.

 

Mtn-Man... The cords were off putting the cacher at the apartment at the back of the building, not at mine which was at the front. I am friends with the person at the rear unit, to the extent that I have her house key to feed her (stupid evil) cat (it bit me today when I went over to play with it and feed it) while she's in Michigan. Her bedroom isn't at the back of the building, it's in the middle of it, and the front of the building is my living room and patio - again, no bedroom windows to be under)

 

Isn't this like any other cache, though? If you don't feel comfortable with one cache, don't do it, but let someone else do it?

 

I'm still not sure what makes this cache any different from one at any other person's house (We did three of them for GeoWoodstock, I have one at my dad's house in Ohio)

 

But like I said above, I'm less peeved that the cache got Un-Approved (why not just archive it?) than I am at how the situation played out - from both sides of it. I now have a trust issue with this person (If I don't answer a question quick enough again, regardless of if the cache is okay, will this person just archive it anyway?), I'm extremely upset at this person, and I'm sitting here wondering if there's any point in participating at this sport ;) since I know of at least three people in my area who are against me.

 

I still don't even know what the issue of the cache was. Is the issue because of the gate, or is it because the cache is next to the builiding? - ie - if the cache was moved 30 feet away into weeds on the side of a hill within view from my livingroom instead of next to my livingroom, then would the cache be okay? Like I said, my question about what the issue with the cache was never answered.

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I still don't even know what the issue of the cache was. Is the issue because of the gate, or is it because the cache is next to the builiding? - ie - if the cache was moved 30 feet away into weeds on the side of a hill within view from my livingroom instead of next to my livingroom, then would the cache be okay? Like I said, my question about what the issue with the cache was never answered.

Is it really so hard to answer a question? From my point of view, you don't know what the issue with the cache is because you flew off the handle instead of politely answering the question. I suspect if you had answered the question politely and with respect, you would know what the issue is, and quite possibly would have had the cache approved, and wouldn't have the need for this (yet another) rediculous thread bashing an approver who was working for you and the community. But, instead of just answering the question and explaining that it was your property, you pretty much got what you deserved, IMO. ;)

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... But like I said above, I'm less peeved that the cache got Un-Approved (why not just archive it?) than I am at how the situation played out ...

I suspect Archived is for temporary problems or similar and Un-approved is for caches that should never have been approved in first place due to some rules issue.

 

VIOLIN1.gif

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I still don't even know what the issue of the cache was.  Is the issue because of the gate, or is it because the cache is next to the builiding?  - ie - if the cache was moved 30 feet away into weeds on the side of a hill within view from my livingroom instead of next to my livingroom, then would the cache be okay?  Like I said, my question about what the issue with the cache was never answered.

Is it really so hard to answer a question? From my point of view, you don't know what the issue with the cache is because you flew off the handle instead of politely answering the question. I suspect if you had answered the question politely and with respect, you would know what the issue is, and quite possibly would have had the cache approved, and wouldn't have the need for this (yet another) rediculous thread bashing an approver who was working for you and the community. But, instead of just answering the question and explaining that it was your property, you pretty much got what you deserved, IMO. ;)

How is asking what the issue is flying off the handle?

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I still don't even know what the issue of the cache was.  Is the issue because of the gate, or is it because the cache is next to the builiding?  - ie - if the cache was moved 30 feet away into weeds on the side of a hill within view from my livingroom instead of next to my livingroom, then would the cache be okay?  Like I said, my question about what the issue with the cache was never answered.

Is it really so hard to answer a question? From my point of view, you don't know what the issue with the cache is because you flew off the handle instead of politely answering the question. I suspect if you had answered the question politely and with respect, you would know what the issue is, and quite possibly would have had the cache approved, and wouldn't have the need for this (yet another) rediculous thread bashing an approver who was working for you and the community. But, instead of just answering the question and explaining that it was your property, you pretty much got what you deserved, IMO. ;)

How is asking what the issue is flying off the handle?

Just judging from the entire tone of your posts in this thread.....I call that flying off the handle. And you keep avoiding the question....why was it so hard just to answer a simple question?

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Answering the question was never the problem.

I wanted to know what the issue was that the approver was trying to get to so we didn't have to go back and forth in email for a week.

 

Perhaps you enjoy the game 20 questions, but I find it quite annoying and pointless.

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Answering the question was never the problem.

I wanted to know what the issue was that the approver was trying to get to so we didn't have to go back and forth in email for a week.

 

Perhaps you enjoy the game 20 questions, but I find it quite annoying and pointless.

Sounds like you may have a problem with authority. It's an approvers job to ASK 20 QUESTIONS. Apparently, you became somewhat hostile (or at least copped an attitude). If I were approver I would have shut down your weak stuff as well. An approver owes you nothing but respect. You copped an attitude and lost that respect. Get over it and plan another cache.

Edited by clearpath
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To me it sounds like the 'regulars' have jumped to a conclusion: He won't answer questions, He has an attitude, He's wrong. Reading this thread, what I hear is the attitude came AFTER the unapproving/archiving. The one e-mail that everyone 'jumped on' ("with that attitude, I'd shut you down too") was in response to the unapproving, not the cause of it. Asking to find out what the issue is, isn't not answering, but trying to find out what answer is wanted. If a cop stopped you, asked for your license, and then asked for you registration, and then you asked what the problem was - should he haul you to jail? No, he has to tell you why he stopped you. I think approvers should plainly state what the problem/complaint is and then work to correct/settle it. If one e-mailed me "there is a complaint about your cache. Where is it?", my first response would be "what's the complaint?"

 

No, we don't have the whole story, but the some of the missing pieces have been filled in by people not involved (guesses) and then the rest is judge by those guesses. Myself, I'd like to see copies of the e-mails (from both sides) before guessing what was said. The forums are the court of last resort, but many here have decided he's guilty, even while saying they don't have all the info. Ahh, what's the point. He's been "proven" guiltly (at least 95% guilty) so hang him and be done with it.

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As I understand it, the cache is on his property? And so he gave himself permission.

 

That the cache moved was a reported correction in the coordinates. In other words the cache stayed put but the coordinates were updated and 'snagged' by the maximum move limit?

 

Someone else complained about the cache which wouldn't suprise me, if it's on private property near a house and a lot of people are uncomforatble with those kind of caches.

 

Other than percieved rudeness so far the case isn't looking like one that should of resulted in an archived cache. It's late and the approver still hasnt' chimed in. That's all that's needed to finalize this and get the bigger picture. Time for bed.

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It's pretty clear that there are a few parties to this whole thing that need to get a better grip.

 

1) The approver started beating around the bush...and then got tired of it and threw their hands up in the air and said to hell with it.

 

2) The hider cut straight to the chase and was cut short...and then got mad at it all and threw their hands up in the air and said to the forum with it.

 

3) The readers who are allowing attitudes and cockiness (their own and otherwise) cloud their ability to just read for the facts want this all solved in 30 minutes or less because the pizza is on its way...so they got flippant at it all and threw their hands up in the air and said to hell with your problem.

 

4) I think because of the approver's actions, the solution will lie with contact@ and approvers@. That will be the only way to reverse the cache's current condition. I think the e-mail that goes to those addresses needs to sound more like it came from RK's posts in this thread and less like the hider's posts in this thread. In the end, there is nothing about this cache (with correct coordinates) that makes it unapprovable for listing here regardless of its past history.

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The longer it takes for any kind of official response the worse it looks for the approver.

 

If memory serves, any time a dispute is brought to the forums and the hider is in the wrong someone of authority explains the reason it wasn't approved and the offender slinks away.

 

However, if the approver was in the wrong you'll never see it here in the forums. I've yet to see an approver go "Doh! My bad. It's approved" here in the forums.

 

I'm still interested in hearing from the other side, but it's looking more and more like we won't.

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To me it sounds like the 'regulars' have jumped to a conclusion

Seems to be the standard operating procedure.

 

--------

 

I haven't seen anything yet posted that would make me believe the cache was dealt with appropriately on the GC.com site. I'm not saying we've seen the whole story, but of course that never prevented the typical folks from speaking up and assuming all the pieces they don't know.

 

In watching threads like this in the past few months, I've seen instances where the owner acted inappropriately and in other instances, gc.com didn't do things completely right.

 

So for me, I'll have to wait and see what the missing pieces are, not that it matters that much to me. In fact, if others didn't jump all over this guy, I probably wouldn't have even participated in the thread since it's a rather boring topic of discussion.

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The longer it takes for any kind of official response the worse it looks for the approver.
strongly disagree

guy cops attitude, instead of explaining, process derailed!

It does look like this could easily have been a legit. cache - once coordinates were adjusted to keep people out of the back yard. How many times have I heard 5th graders with attitude saying, "What? What did I do?"

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(Shadango walks into view.....places a worn yet sturdy soapbox on the ground, steps up onto it and clears his throat....)

 

Ahem....snort....ahem....

 

(Shandango places his flattened right hand partially into the breast of his button-down shirt, stands up ramrod straight and prepares to speak in his best faux-British accent.....)

 

After reading (yawn) the whole thread, the one question that hasn't been asked or answered in full is "Who complained".

 

We know that the cache was approved and posted.

 

We know that one person went a-lookin' for it and didn;t find it.

 

We know that the cache was subsequently un-approved.

 

Now, do we assume that the would-be-finder complained becuase he couldn't find it?

 

Or did someone in the area see the 1st guy and then start snooping around themselves and then find the cache by accident (If it is just sitting on a ledge it might be easy) and contact GC.com? (Remember, at one time or another, we ALL were newbies to this sport and would have questioned seeing someone poking around in the bushes...nowadays, I assume they are Geocaching... :blink: )

 

Was it a concerned resident or one of the folks the writer notes as "having problems" with him?

 

Seems like the approver AND the cacher both miscommunicated.....easy enough to do....happens everyday.

 

But they both need to come to an understanding...as I understand it, a given area has only one approver (??) so like it or not, you two have to work together if you want to put more caches out there.... Both sides need to communicate 100%.....the approver isn't God and neither is the person hiding the cache....they are equals.....just happens that one has been delegated to approve caches....

 

And, more importantly, the WHOLE issue and who complained needs to be discussed. If your neighbors dont want strangers around then that is their right to complain, to a point.

 

When I saw "gated community" I said "Duh.....its gated for a reason....keep control of strangers".....regardless of what the policy-in-practice of that gate is, some folks may derive a sense of security by having it there, and feel that inviting the general public within its confines jeopardizes THEIR safety....they may very well be the same ones that disagree with the "public pool parties" as well.....A gate may mean one thing to a 20 year old guy while it might mean something totally different to a 65 year old widower living by herself.

 

....or maybe it was the person who couldnt find it and they complained because they felt uncomfortable with that hide....or maybe that person was ticked off after having spent an hour driving somewhere to find a cache that wasn't what they expected.

 

Anyways, the long and short of it is -- this is between the poster, the approver and GC.com.....we can all interject and such, but only 3 parties know what actually transpired......the poster, the approval and God almighty. :D

 

(Shadango steps off of the soapbox...grabs an axe and bludgeons the beejeezuz out of it, splintering it into toothpicks, and walks away, dragging the carcass of the dead equine that has been beaten beyind recognition.....)

 

:D It's all good folks...it's just a game!

 

shadango

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The longer it takes for any kind of official response the worse it looks for the approver.
strongly disagree

guy cops attitude, instead of explaining, process derailed!

It does look like this could easily have been a legit. cache - once coordinates were adjusted to keep people out of the back yard. How many times have I heard 5th graders with attitude saying, "What? What did I do?"

Attitudes are not the sole provence of cache owners. Approvers have variouse degrees of "attitude" just like everyone else.

 

There are 95 responses here and we haven't heard from the approver. This site is monitored, other approvers have stepped up and make comments. The approver has had plenty of time to respond and hasn't. Just try not showing up to your own legal proceedings and see how the judge takes it. While most people here are NOT on the side of fly, it really doesn't look good for the approver to ignore the mess either.

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The longer it takes for any kind of official response the worse it looks for the approver.
strongly disagree

guy cops attitude, instead of explaining, process derailed!

It does look like this could easily have been a legit. cache - once coordinates were adjusted to keep people out of the back yard. How many times have I heard 5th graders with attitude saying, "What? What did I do?"

So, I take it the "process" is to beat around the bush and play 20 questions? Then, if you don't like the game they're playing, you suffer?

 

Yeah, this sounds like this cop in a nearby one horse town. He pulls you over and asks a bunch of asinine questions in a snotty attitude and the first hint of "tone" in your voice he saids "I don't like your attitude" and writes you a ticket. (By the way, my "infraction" was 28 in a 25 school zone where he triggered me right at the school sign.)

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To me it sounds like the 'regulars' have jumped to a conclusion

Seems to be the standard operating procedure.

 

Yeah right, I'm willing to bet that you are soft on crime, a liberal, and you dish out 'second chances' like candy on Halloween. How's that for 'jumping to conclusions'. hehehe

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