Ethical For Team To Solve Mystery Caches?

[i_think_we_are_lost]

Some mystery caches are extremely difficult. I have always tried to solve mystery caches by myself, occassionally with a hint from the cache owner. Do you think it is ok for a group of geocachers to work together to solve a mystery cache? Does it matter if it is all internet based? What if one person in the group figures it out - should everyone working on the cache get to log it? What if only one of the people can physically get to the cache (because of distance)? Is it ok for that person to 'proxy' sign everyone on the team, and for them all to log it as a find?

 

What do you think?

[+Nappy10]

Yes, I think a group of people can work on a mystery cache. Yes, use the internet to your advantage. Yes, I think if one person ends up solving it all the people in the party can use the information (as long as those people were there from the get-go. the team shouldn't just distribute the info to other cachers arbitrarily).

 

No, I dont think a cacher should "proxy" sign the cache for everyone. If you physically find it, log it. If you dont, dont!

[+CO Admin]

Some mystery caches are extremely difficult.  I have always tried to solve mystery caches by myself, occasionally with a hint from the cache owner.  Do you think it is ok for a group of Geocaches to work together to solve a mystery cache?  Does it matter if it is all internet based?  What if one person in the  group figures it out - should everyone working on the cache get to log it?  What if only one of the people can physically get to the cache (because of distance)?  Is it ok for that person to 'proxy' sign everyone on the team, and for them all to log it as a find?

 

What do you think?

One of the other reviewers is a Lawyer. I have been trying to convince him that I will give him my power of attorney and he can legally sign my name on cache log book(or my check book but I trust him). I have not been able to talk him into it. Something about everyone needs to sign the log for themselves. Its not uncommon for a cacher to come into Clayjars chat room for some help on a puzzle cache. They get the help. But Ive never heard of a time where someone has asked to have their name signed because they helped. They help because they want to and enjoy puzzles.

 

I will say that it is my opinion that if a group of people work on a puzzle then each has the right to go to the cache and sign their name in the log. If you don't go to the cache they you don't sign the log and you don't claim the find. I know cachers that when they cache together they log under a Team name for the finds. If the entire team isn't there then they log individual finds on their personal account.

 

The above is my opinion based on the theory that if you don't physically sign the log its not a find. (traditional type caches)

[+Imajika]

Imajika and Team Yatta's opinion:

 

Yes, the team can work on solving a puzzle cache together.

 

No, one person cannot sign 'by proxy' for their entire team. The team member would need to go along with the team and find the cache, and sign the book themselves.

[+beatnik]

What if only one of the people can physically get to the cache (because of distance)?  Is it ok for that person to 'proxy' sign everyone on the team, and for them all to log it as a find?

Simply put, no.

 

It's Ok to work together to solve a puzzle.

It's not OK log log it unless you found it.

Edited July 18, 2004 by beatnik

[+briansnat]

I don't see a problem with a team working to solve a puzzle cache. It's not all that different from a few geocachers getting together to hunt a regular cache.

 

As far as signing a log on a cache that you didn't physically touch, it isn't something I would do and if it were my cache, I'd probably not allow the log.

Edited July 18, 2004 by briansnat

[+Robespierre]

I don't think anyone is gonna burn in Hell on this one, but it comes down to what kind of person you want to be. Our Team is occasionally together, but I get to join then rarely, and others too. We mention our team in the logs, but we log individually. So we help each other in any effort, but if you're not there, you can't sign.

[CoyoteRed]

Here's my take.

 

There is a clouding of what constitutes a find. The ability to claim a find has nothing to do with the trip there. A find is you being physically at the location of the box, it being successfully retrieved, and you signing the log. (A compromised box not withstanding, of course.) All of the types of caches; traditional, multi, what have you; are styles of the trip there. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

You sign the log, the you can claim the find.

 

Conversely, this works the other way. If someone "cheats" or accidently finds the final to a cache and signs the log, they get to claim the find--even if they skipped breaking hard encrypted clues, 10,000 mile journeys, 200 mile hikes, fighting blinding blizzards, 135° heat, rabid wolves, Sirens, and the depths of Atlantis! Even if a previous finder just handled the final coords to them.

 

It ain't right. It ain't fair. That's just the way it is.

 

We've set a standard of to claim a find, you must sign the log. Doesn't matter how you got there.

 

As for being part of a team solving a puzzle, that's perfectly acceptable. It would be considered poor form to not participate, to just sit back and let others do the work.

 

I'd go further and say I consider it bad form to give the answer to puzzles you've already figured to those that come later. It's nothing less than a spoiler and trivializes the effort of the owner and those that have gone before. It's no less bad form than accompanying someone on a hunt to a cache you've found, arriving at the site, and just grabbing the cache for them.

 

Note this is different than asking for additional clues from a previous finder. This is a delicate situation on both parties, complex, and a different topic.

[+flask]

here's a thing, though. when i go with a group, often only one of us acts as recording secretary and signs for everyone present. it saves pages in the log. we never sign for anyone who isn't there, but please don't tell my usual cache partner he has to go back and sign his own name in all those logs. he'd be plenty toasted.

[+Renegade Knight]

Teams are a different animal than solo accounts. If a team member signed the log, the team can claim the find. However the only solo team meber who can log is the luck guy who actually stood at the cache and signed the log.

 

[edited per request of poster]

Edited July 18, 2004 by CO Admin

[+briansnat]

here's a thing, though. when i go with a group, often only one of us acts as recording secretary and signs for everyone present. it saves pages in the log. we never sign for anyone who isn't there, but please don't tell my usual cache partner he has to go back and sign his own name in all those logs. he'd be plenty toasted.

I think this is is a bit different from what the OP was referring to. Yeah, when we've found caches together I've signed my wife's name as she was standing there, and she's signed mine. I think that even on a few group hunts, one of us has signed everyone's name, but the person is standing right there and found the cache, so no big deal.

 

What the OP is referring to is someone, who for example, might have been in CA and the cache was found in Virginia. The person in CA never saw the cache or even visited the cache site, but the person who found the physical cache signed the person in CA's name because he was part of the "team" that solved the puzzle. I think a lot of us agree that even if the person in CA helped solve the puzzle, he really shouldn't count it as a find until he gets to VA to open the cache and sign the log.

[+flask]

yeah, i followed that, but i just wanted to make sure that base was covered. you have to be there.

[CoyoteRed]

yeah, i followed that, but i just wanted to make sure that base was covered. you have to be there.

That's no problem.

 

Otherwise, I think I've got some 500+ caches to go back and sign. I rarely do the log work. That's Sissy's thing.

[thorin]

Plain and simple.

You sign the log, the you can claim the find.

 

Whether you work it out alone or in a group if you find it and log it then it's a find.

 

Thorin

[+Planet]

I agree with the general consensus. Get all the help you want solving the puzzle, stop in the chat and ask everyone, but only the people who visit the cache in person and sign the log can claim the find.

[+Jared_and_Tanis]

Mystery caches are often very difficult, and sometimes you need an outside opinion to help figure them out. We have helped another cacher work on The Adventure of the Dancing Men, a Sherlock Holmes-based mystery. Getting stumped at the first clue, he brought us a picture of the clue, and we sat there and finally figured it out by a lengthy internet search. Being 2 hours north of this cache, Tanis and I haven't had a chance to take a crack at this one, and Toby wasn't able to find the next clue. If he were to log a find this weekend though, we wouldn't take credit for his find - that doesn't make sense. But, there is nothing wrong with using the information we gathered together to help us in our search. Really what we should do is run down there and log it before he does - nothing like a bit of friendly compeition!

 

Note: I just realized that I was thinking of both this topic and the Signing the log for someone else thread - so this is a combined feeling on both topics!

Edited July 24, 2004 by Jared_and_Tanis

[lowracer]

We had a good discussion of this on the forums recently. We concluded that it's not OK to log Puzzle caches by Proxy.

 

Logging Puzzle Caches by Proxy

 

I've never Markwell'd anyone before. First time for everything...

 

-mark.

aka "lowracer"