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M15 Puzzle Cache - Is This Fair?

lowracer

By lowracer
in General geocaching topics

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fly46

+fly46

Posted
Posted

Will somebody PM me and shed light on that?

 

 

As for the question about fairness, caching is a game of choice. This isn't baseball with set rules and set method of play that never changes in it's dynamics. Instead, we have a database used to start us on our hunt and get us going... In baseball, you can't decide to run from first to third and bypass second, and that's why we don't play baseball. We decide whether or not we go for a particular cache. If you can't solve the math chose a different cache to visit.

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Ambrosia

+Ambrosia

Posted
Posted

We have a cacher (actually, more than one) in our area that puts up caches like that. He didn't have alot of people going to them, only the strange ones that actually got that type of stuff. (Not me.)

 

He finally put on some of them graduated hints, and on some of the others he said that if you were afraid of math or puzzles, you could email him to get either a hint, or the coords. So you could actually go to the cache, if you wanted.

 

He said it was like a 3 star difficulty (or something like that), but that if he had to email the coords, it was considered a 1 star difficulty.

 

You then had to specify on the log if you got help.

 

I've appreciated this. I got the help, cause I would never in a million years have gotten it by myself, and I would have not been able to get the cache. My Math Super-Genius Brother helped me on some of the other ones.

 

 

 

I think it is nice to give people the options. If they love puzzles or math, they will gladly do it. If they can't do that sort of stuff, they have an option that doesn't give it away to anyone else. That way, all get the pleasure of your hide.

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KoosKoos

+KoosKoos

Posted
Posted
I think a little explanation as to how to get it might be nice, but other than that, I think it's fair, and obviously the texas approver thought it was fair too, cause it was approved

Not to mention the fact that it has been found...

Exactly! And it's rated a 5 star difficulty for a reason.

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Robespierre

+Robespierre

Posted
Posted

Is it a stereogram? I guess not. No, since I'm out of the loop, it's not fair.

I've listen to too many 12-year-olds say, "That's not fair!," when, yet it was, and it was correct, and it was just, and it was right.!

"fair" is a whiner's term. Keep it, I'll figure it out, even if I never get to Texas.

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Criminal

+Criminal

Posted
Posted

I'm not very good at puzzles, but my two, though reletively easy to figure out, get few hits. If you want lots of visitors, 1/1 is the way to go. Whenever the difficulty or terrain go above two stars, most so-called geocachers brush them off.

 

Second Puzzler

 

My first.

 

I am confused as to how it could be "unfair", especially since almost all but the easiest ones confuse me... :P

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LukeH

+LukeH

Posted
Posted

I know where that style of text came from (no it's not some funky fantasy elvish script). I remember reading about it but I won't say where. A good chance many of you have read about it too. If I lived in the area I might try it. Heck I might try solving the puzzle just for fun.

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Naefearjustbeer

+Naefearjustbeer

Posted
Posted

I havent got a clue where to start with something like that, As I dont live in the same country there isnt much chance of me finding it even if I did. But if it appeared near my home it would really bug me untill I worked it out. Someone want to pm me a big clue please where to start and see If I can get what its all about. But to answer the question yes its fair even though I aint got a clue

 

Donnie

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lowracer

lowracer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I've taken a poll of those who posted a smiley. The ones who found it on their own initiative without any clues think it's fair.

 

The ones who asked someone for hints and didn't actually solve it on their own all think it's unfair.

 

I'm going to open it up to allow remote finds. If you live more than 300 miles away from the posted coords and you can email me your solution (not just the coords but a step-by-step description of how you solved it, in your own words) you can post a find by proxy. I'll go out and sign the log for you. When you solve it you will know, so don't email me with a partial find and expect me to give you clues and stuff.

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SixTen

+SixTen

Posted
Posted

Not sure how it could be viewed as unfair...

 

I think those who say it is unfair mean it's too hard for them...which is fine...if it is too hard for you then don't try it...but the issue of fairness...bleh...fairness shouldn't come up...just levels of difficulty...

 

Wish I lived in the area...and yes...I am one of those sick puppies who will try to figure it out just to figure it out... :P

 

-Six

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DashHammer

+DashHammer

Posted
Posted

Mark,

 

I think it's a fair cache. It's no different than any of your other puzzle caches. You have the difficulty level set at a appropriate level. If the others think it's unfair then they don't have to try and solve the puzzle or hunt for it.

 

However, I haven't attempted to solve it either. I've put off all puzzle caches until this winter.

 

Alan

aka The Diver

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Cow Spots

+Cow Spots

Posted
Posted

I worried whether some of the things I did in my 5-Star MEWBAN-level cache, Matryoshka, were "fair." (which is a little funny considering the encrypted hint on the page.) But it seemed to work out... it's been found, a few times, by the puzzle cache crew around here.

 

Opening a cache up to proxy finds is an interesting idea. I might consider it.

 

As for M15... I have several inklings of ideas pushing around the corners of my brain. My take is... if it's been found, it's fair. If this cache turns out to have a twist I haven't seen before... so much the better.

 

I love solving puzzle caches far away from me though. It gives me new approaches when someone places a new one IN my area.

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Team Levy

Team Levy

Posted
Posted

I don't see any reason to not call this fair. If the puzzles have a solution and that solution leads to a cache... fair it is.

 

Here's my question (anyone feel free to email me if you'd like to lend some advise)... I've always thought of myself as a pretty intelligent guy... but I'm totally stumped by the M15 puzzle. If anyone could give me a few starting tips on how to solve this I'd be very appreciative.

 

Thanks

Slevy

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Huntnlady

+Huntnlady

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think I could solve M15, if I could just figure out what that type of writing is called. I did google M15, it is a globular cluster, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the name of the cache, if anything.

 

Edit: I don't think I gave anything away. And yes, I think it is very fair, especially since we can log it by proxy! I've got to do that on my puzzle caches, but they are way too easy compared to this one.

 

I have seen one cache that is similar, Green Archer's Code Cache.

Edited by Huntnlady
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lowracer

lowracer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I wanted to make it clear, the group concensus seems very strongly against proxy logging of puzzle caches. I've already stripped out the proxy language from my listing, and am rescinding my offer to allow proxy logging of this cache.

 

It was not my intent to circumvent the review process. This was an extremely challenging puzzle and the actual cache itself was almost a drive-by, my feeling was that solving the puzzle was 99.9% of finding this cache, and that those who found it by having someone else solve it for them didn't deserve the smiley at all.

 

I'll ask those who found by proxy to change their smiley to a note. I should also do the same for those who didn't solve the puzzle but signed the log, but I won't.

 

Sorry guys. You're welcome to come on down to Austin to sign the logbook. Until then, no smiley for you! (in my best soup Nazi voice).

 

:blink:

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Sgt Stitches

+Sgt Stitches

Posted
Posted

At least the cache owner is willing to give clues... The owner of this cache :

 

The Penultimate Puzzle Cache (#99999)

 

writes in his cache description:

"Absolutely no hints on decryption will be provided. Don't even ask. If you record this as a find without having fully completed the encoded instructions, your log will be deleted. Period."

 

Personally, I think that the tone of the "Penultimate" cache is a little harsh and not very friendly... at least with M15, the owner is willing to help out.

 

Personally, I think ANYONE can come up with an "unsolveable" puzzle. A really well thought out puzzle will provide clues... even if people don't know they are clues.

 

I have constructed a few puzzles myself and am always willing to help with varying levels of clues.

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Cow Spots

+Cow Spots

Posted
Posted
Personally, I think ANYONE can come up with an "unsolveable" puzzle.  A really well thought out puzzle will provide clues... even if people don't know they are clues.

 

As someone who has designed a few puzzles, I'll second that.

 

It is EASY to design a non solveable puzzle. Look at the Beale Ciphers discovered during the 1800's. Unless you believe these to be a hoax, 2 of the three Beale Ciphers have gone unsolved for well over 100 years. Since the alleged contents of the treasure referred to in the Beale ciphers is an iron box filled with gold and silver worth $20 million in today's money, I'd say that is one heck of a First Finder's prize!!

 

But it would be CAKE for me to design a puzzle cache using letters out of words from an obscure paperback novel, give no clues, and have that sucker sit unsolved forever. Not interested, thanks. I don't want to antagonize people with a tough puzzle, just make 'em sweat a bit. Besides, if I did that, I believe that karma would get me back. To paraphrase Douglas Adams, "You don't bite the hand that feeds you. You can suck on it a bit, nuzzle it, even playfully nibble it, but actually _biting_ it is another thing altogether."

 

It is actually much much harder designing something that is very hard, but solveable, than an impossible solve. Giving clues, if you choose, is also quite difficult. It's a fine line between a giveaway hint, and something so obscure that it is non-helpful.

 

A good trick at hinting, which my brother developed, is the "non-lie lie." This type of hint looks useless, but in fact is helpful if interpreted the right way.

 

Cache on!

 

Dave, The Cow Spots

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lowracer

lowracer

Posted
  • Author
Posted
...at least with M15, the owner is willing to help out.

Not sure how you got this impression. I don't give out any clues for M15 (or its predecessor M13). You have to send me your solution, showing your work, in your own words. If it's right I congratulate you, if it's not, I just say "no comment."

:blink:

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Sgt Stitches

+Sgt Stitches

Posted
Posted
QUOTE (Sgt Stitches @ Jul 20 2004, 11:56 AM)

...at least with M15, the owner is willing to help out. 

 

Not sure how you got this impression. I don't give out any clues for M15 (or its predecessor M13). You have to send me your solution, showing your work, in your own words. If it's right I congratulate you, if it's not, I just say "no comment."

 

Ah...sorry. My mistake.... I thought I had read somewhere above that you would supply a hint or two... Guess I need to read more carefully.

 

Anyway, I still think supplying clues, giving a little direction, and helping people when they get stuck is a more friendly way to do puzzle caches... even 5 stars.

 

Once I had to supply four different clues over a period of about a month for someone to solve one of my puzzles. I had a good time thinking up clues that wouldn't give it totally away and they were happy when they finally got it. I don't mind helping and it is more fun to communicate with other cachers than to leave people frustrated. But that's me.

 

The only caveat I have for helping people or providing hints is that I ask people to wait at least four weeks after a cagce first gets approved so that the really serious puzzlers out there have a chance for a FTF before someone with a hint.

 

If no one gets it after four weeks, I will post a clue to the web page so everyone has an equal chance. Of course I've never had to resort to that.... too many great puzzlers out there geocaching!

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