Are People Reluctant To Log A No-find.

June 25, 2004

I was just wondering

June 25, 2004

Yes and No

June 25, 2004

I know personally I do geocaching when I have time here and there. I will have a few extra minutes to rush out and check a cache location. If I am lucky, I will find it right off, if not I will leave after a few minutes and be able to return after I have thought about a plan of action.

(1) I know if I had more time I probably would find it and (2) I think DNFs make the cache owner nervous that the cache might be gone. If I came and put full effort and know the cache will take some extensive searching, I will post a DNF, just to put the difficulty of the cache in perspective.

Okay...so i've come clean.

June 25, 2004

I always log them, I logged a 1/1 DNF today, that was found a few days ago. I don't worry that the cache owner will be nervous, for every DNF I log, I'm sure there are several that are not logged.

3.8k · June 25, 2004

This thread is a good answer to your question

1.8k · June 25, 2004

In 50 caches since last August I've logged 2, one which is still standing, but the cache is being altered before I go back. But one other one I just didn't log until I found it.

38.2k · June 25, 2004

I have 59, including 5 on one cache, so no I'm not reluctant to log one. For some reason some people are. They seem to think its something to be ashamed about (it isn't), or that it will worry the cache owner (one DNF won't).

As a cache owner, let me address that last one. One DNF isn't going to send me scurrying out there to check on the cache. 2-3 in a row on what should be an easy cache will. If 2 people look and don't post a DNF, then the 3rd does, I won't check on it, when the cache probably does need a visit.

I'd rather see people log DNF's than nothing at all. First, it lets me know that people are looking for my cache and it isn't a waste of my efforts. Second, they can help me adjust my difficulty rating to make it more accurate. If I rate it 1 star and start seeing DNF's, I know I should raise it, or if I rate it 3 stars and see nothing but smiley faces, I will lower it. In the latter case, if people are indeed visiting it and not logging their DNF's, it may result in my lowering the rating when I shouldn't have. I find it a bit annoying when I see logs like "Found it on my 5th try, this was a tough one" with no DNF's before it. Had I known it was so hard, I probably would have added a star. Feedback is important for the cache owner. Even if you feel that you didn't put in a full effort, log it. If you mention that fact in the log it will be taken into consideration, but at least I know someone was looking for it.

Finally, DNF's often have the best story to go with it. We cache owners want to hear it. Part of the reason we places caches is that we enjoy reading the logs about your adventure, whether you succeeded or not.

Edited June 25, 2004 by briansnat

2.1k · June 25, 2004

I'm new - only 5 finds and 2 DNF's. Maybe I don't know any better but I logged them both. I was thanked for the one that was missing. The other one was checked and was still there. We just couldn't find it after nearly an hour tramping around the area. Gunna be suprised when we find it I think -- and say something like "Oh! gawd - it was right in front of our faces!" I'm not worried about the stats - just like playing the game.

Planning to go out again this weekend for some more of the local stashes.

Also planning to stash my first cache this weekend.

June 25, 2004

Seems like people around here are, but not sure why...

It has baffled me for a while but I often see the same thing in the logs that BrianSnat talks about. There are tons of 'Found it' logs with "Finally found after 5 tries" or Notes that say they couldn't find it but never a purple frownie.

It just puzzles me thats all, I don't mind the frowns at all... in fact I kinda like that it adds a splash of color to 'My Cache Page'.

24.7k · June 25, 2004

They are.

Locally a new cache was placed and nobody logged an FTF. There are 8 or 10 regulars who vie for FTF. On this cache, nothing.

So I wait and still nothing. Finally someone posts a DNF and admits they couldn't find it. It sounded like the coordinates were off.

We made the cache a mission, found it and provided updated coordinates. All of this could of been done sooner by the owner had they but known nobody was finding the cache (the owner does have local help).

2.1k · June 25, 2004

I'd rather see people log DNF's than nothing at all. First, it lets me know that people are looking for my cache and it isn't a waste of my efforts. Second, they can help me adjust my difficulty rating to make it more accurate. If I rate it 1 star and start seeing DNF's, I know I should raise it, or if I rate it 3 stars and see nothing but smiley faces, I will lower it. In the latter case, if people are indeed visiting it and not logging their DNF's, it may result in my lowering the rating when I shouldn't have. I find it a bit annoying when I see logs like "Found it on my 5th try, this was a tough one" with no DNF's before it. Had I known it was so hard, I probably would have added a star. Feedback is important for the cache owner. Even if you feel that you didn't put in a full effort, log it. If you mention that fact in the log it will be taken into consideration, but at least I know someone was looking for it.

Finally, DNF's often have the best story to go with it. We cache owners want to hear it. Part of the reason we places caches is that we enjoy reading the logs about your adventure, whether you succeeded or not.

I agree - Feedback it the key - and we know the the cache is active. Good comments - couln't have said it better -

1.5k · June 25, 2004

<snip>... couldn't find it but never a purple frownie.

It just puzzles me thats all, I don't mind the frowns at all... in fact I kinda like that it adds a splash of color to 'My Cache Page'. </snip>

You know, I think that's part of it.. people associate the frownie face with failure and not being a "good" 'cacher. Personally... don't care one way or the other. IF I try and can't find it, I log a DNF. I'm not quite as stringent as some purport to be though... the other day I headed out for a local 'cache, but the parking lot for the park was full, so I turned around and kept going. In my books, since I didn't start looking, it's not a DNF...

June 25, 2004

I'm new. I went to find a cache listed as a cache-and-dash on the way home from work two days ago. It had not been FTF'd yet. In keeping with a recent thread about logging DNF's, I dutifly logged it. The next day it was found by a more experienced cacher who boldly stated in the online cache log that they couldn't understand why I had so much trouble finding it. Speaking from a newbie point of view, I think some of us do not log DNF's out of embarrasement. I can tell you that I KNEW that the reason I did not find the cache was because of my inexperience but reading this person's log made my face burn a little. I will go back and find it.

June 25, 2004

in San Diego, north county anyhow, Escondido to be exact....

people seem rather reluctant to log DNFs. Many times, people just put notes....others seem to do nothing and then wait for another to log DNF. I guess they attach a stigma to it. I don't. Their stigmatization of posting a DNF seems like poor manners to me, and maybe a negative self-image, or just low self-esteem. This is not to put anyone down, just my take on why someone would feel bad about something like that.

I hope people get out of that mindset and get on with it.

if you look, and can't find it, well that is a DNF... Drat, NickedBy Fairies, because you just have to figure that if you can't find it the fairies MUST have stolen it....

any other full forms for the acronym DNF??? maybe we can find something cute enough to assuage the trauma of the purple face.

edited to add: hey greende, that person who said mean things, just has issues. Don't even let it bother you. who cares what they think, I mean really.

Edited June 25, 2004 by norbu

June 25, 2004

I log a dnf had 2. But if I go back to the cache and find it I will change the log to a find with the added inforamtion of when I went out and found it. The reason I change a log was through some misunderstanding when I started about logging caches more than 1ce. SO instead of adding a 2nd log that I found it I altered the DNF that I had to a FI. It wasn't til later I realized my mistake on the multiple logs of people doing it with multiple FIND logs.

Edited June 25, 2004 by Dream Alchemist

38.2k · June 25, 2004

But if I go back to the cache and find it I will change the log to a find with the added inforamtion of when I went out and found it. The reason I change a log was through some misunderstanding when I started about logging caches more than 1ce. SO instead of adding a 2nd log that I found it I altered the DNF that I had to a FI.

It seems many people do this. One problem with changing your DNF log to a Found It log is that the owner will not get notification of the new log. So unless he goes through the cache page, he won't know that the cache was found.

Also, these DNF's are part of the cache's history and belong there, as is.

3.8k · June 25, 2004

I am a believer in logging a DNF even if you go to a cache site (assuming your originally intended to search for the cache) and end up reading a book or taking a nap. There should be no stigma or embarrassment about DNF's.

norbu wrote:

...any other full forms for the acronym DNF??? maybe we can find something cute enough to assuage the trauma of the purple face.

I consider DNFs a sort of badge of merit; I was there, I put out an effort to get there with the intention of finding the cache, and even if rain or lack of time causes me to leave, I still log the DNF.

I like to call them Distinguished Negative Finds.

But that's just me.

1.5k · June 25, 2004

I'm new. I went to find a cache listed as a cache-and-dash on the way home from work two days ago. It had not been FTF'd yet. In keeping with a recent thread about logging DNF's, I dutifly logged it. The next day it was found by a more experienced cacher who boldly stated in the online cache log that they couldn't understand why I had so much trouble finding it. Speaking from a newbie point of view, I think some of us do not log DNF's out of embarrasement. I can tell you that I KNEW that the reason I did not find the cache was because of my inexperience but reading this person's log made my face burn a little. I will go back and find it.

That's lousy, and I can certainly sympathise with you. My most recent DNF was a 1/1 that has been logged too many times to count, and [almost] every logs reads something like... "walked right up to cache" or "took only a second to locate"... It's all part of the game though... Go back, find it and lot it... remember, even the most experienced 'cacher had to start somewhere...

June 26, 2004

Tirediron-- Thanks, I intend to find and log it. I agree that after you find a cache the DNF should stay because that is the history of the cache. I think that if everyone recorded more DNF's there would be a better sense of what went on in peoples minds to find caches. I think human nature is for poeple to say that it was an easy find. Sometimes they aren't. As I understand it they all aren't. If it were so, there would be no sport.

9.5k · June 26, 2004

But if I go back to the cache and find it I will change the log to a find with the added inforamtion of when I went out and found it. The reason I change a log was through some misunderstanding when I started about logging caches more than 1ce. SO instead of adding a 2nd log that I found it I altered the DNF that I had to a FI.

It seems many people do this. One problem with changing your DNF log to a Found It log is that the owner will not get notification of the new log. So unless he goes through the cache page, he won't know that the cache was found.

Also, these DNF's are part of the cache's history and belong there, as is.

Early on when I was a newbie I too changed my DNF's to Finds when I found them. I haven't done that in a long time. I realized with time I was changing the hirtorical timeline long before I knew they didn't generate new e-mail to the owner. It isn't as embarrassing to me as it was in the beginning. If I put out my best effort and fail to find it, then there's nothing more I can do about it except enjoy the moment.

June 26, 2004

Reluctant? oh yes! But I do log the DNF when I look and don't find it. It's only fair. To me, it's all part of the game.

1.4k · June 26, 2004

If I look for a cache and don't find it...I log it as a DNF.

Where's the "That's not the way I want to play the game" crowd?

1k · June 26, 2004

I figure I need to spend 30 minutes looking before I'll log a DNF. That way, in my mind, I've given it a good effort and I couldn't find it. I think DNFs are very valuable as they give hiders feedback on their caches. Unfortunately, not all hiders seem to take that feedback and check their caches out after they've gotten DNFs on their logs.

Case in point.

1.4k · June 26, 2004

If I plan on looking again, I'll usually post a note.

If I'm pretty sure I found the spot but it's missing, I'll usually post a dnf.

If I find a "smoking gun" (Trashed cache container or scattered swag) I'll restock or cito the cache and post a find.

If I just can't find the thing I post a dnf. These are sometimes the most frustrating but rewarding caches I've logged.

In every case, I log my odometer travel bug in and out of the cache. It basically logs that I was there, or close to there, and sometimes way over there.

8.5k · June 26, 2004

NOT ME! I log every one.

Sn gans

38.2k · June 26, 2004

If I plan on looking again, I'll usually post a note.

If I'm pretty sure I found the spot but it's missing, I'll usually post a dnf.

If I find a "smoking gun" (Trashed cache container or scattered swag) I'll restock or cito the cache and post a find.

If I just can't find the thing I post a dnf. These are sometimes the most frustrating but rewarding caches I've logged.

In every case, I log my odometer travel bug in and out of the cache. It basically logs that I was there, or close to there, and sometimes way over there.

I still don't get the rationalization for the first one. You went to find it and didn't. Why does the fact that you plan to come back have a bearing on what kind of log you post?

There are several choices on the log menu and only one covers that situation and it says "didn't find it".

Edited June 26, 2004 by briansnat

1k · June 26, 2004

In every case, I log my odometer travel bug in and out of the cache. It basically logs that I was there, or close to there, and sometimes way over there.

You make good points for what to do in each case.

I'd thought about logging my personal bug at DNFs and then decided against it since my bug was originally intended just to show me where I'd found caches. Now I wish I'd placed them in the DNFs as well.

1k · June 26, 2004

If I plan on looking again, I'll usually post a note.

If I'm pretty sure I found the spot but it's missing, I'll usually post a dnf.

If I find a "smoking gun" (Trashed cache container or scattered swag) I'll restock or cito the cache and post a find.

If I just can't find the thing I post a dnf. These are sometimes the most frustrating but rewarding caches I've logged.

In every case, I log my odometer travel bug in and out of the cache. It basically logs that I was there, or close to there, and sometimes way over there.

I still don't get the rationalization for the first one. You went to find it and didn't. Why does the fact that you plan to come back have a bearing on what kind of log you post?

You went to find it and didn't. There are several choices on the log menu and only one covers that situation and it says "didn't find it".

When I do something like that, a note indicates to me that I didn't search thoroughly enough imo (less than 30 minutes). Once I've hit the 30 minute threshold, I'll log a DNF. I want to give the benefit of the doubt to the hider. Perhaps he/she hid it very well and I haven't searched well enough yet, so I'll post a note. When I go back, if I still can't find it, I'll either modify the note or just post a new DNF at that time.

Note indicates a possible problem, but if you explain what you're doing, then the hider can take a wait and see attitude. DNF would compel, in my mind, a hider to get out there and check it out.

June 26, 2004

Although this topic's been listed as my Geocaching Pet Peeve in my profile, folks around here don't tend to log them.

Typically an owner on regular maintenance finds problems and fixes it then suddenly a steady stream of finders appear out of the blue! (Wonder why???)

AT LEAST POST A NOTE! (If you hate the graphic THAT much.) A DNF is just communication to the hider...odds are something's wrong anyway.

Enjoy,

Randy

PS: Besides, my DNF's are usually my most entertaining/interesting logs!

1k · June 26, 2004

And a DNF is part of your geocaching history. Be proud. You went out, you searched and you did not find. I don't think there's a single geocacher who's got more than 10 finds who hasn't been stumped at least once.

2.2k · June 26, 2004

i'll always log a dnf if i've had a chance to look properly. the other day i didn't have a chance to look properly for the final on a multi, and i wasn't 100% sure of the coordinates so instead of a dnf i sent a quick email to the cache owner to just check. as has been said feedback is the answer. having a few dnf's makes the cache a challenge. it also helps other cachers decide when to try to find cache. if it's going to belt down with rain any moment i might not go for a hard to find cache. i'll leave it until i have the time to really look and enjoy the hunt. it's quality not quantity.

June 26, 2004

For the most part, I do log DNF. The only times I don't log DNF

1) I don't remember when I go an a caching marathon

2) Cache area is just crappy and I don't care to visit it ever again.

June 26, 2004

If I have a DNF, is it still ok to uplload a few photos?

1k · June 26, 2004

If I have a DNF, is it still ok to uplload a few photos?

Sure, why not? Perhaps your photos would help the hider to see if the cache was really MIA.

June 26, 2004

Gee....this was my first post. Wonder what it was for?

June 26, 2004

HA! Seems I'm not the only one that uses DNF's differently.

38.2k · June 26, 2004

When I do something like that, a note indicates to me that I didn't search thoroughly enough imo (less than 30 minutes). Once I've hit the 30 minute threshold, I'll log a DNF. I want to give the benefit of the doubt to the hider. Perhaps he/she hid it very well and I haven't searched well enough yet, so I'll post a note. When I go back, if I still can't find it, I'll either modify the note or just post a new DNF at that time.

Note indicates a possible problem, but if you explain what you're doing, then the hider can take a wait and see attitude. DNF would compel, in my mind, a hider to get out there and check it out.

I don't think any cache owner will go out check after one DNF. If there are 2, or 3 in a row, then it will probably send them out there to have a look. If you don't log a DNF and the guy after you doesn't then the next one does, the owner really should be going out there to have a look, but won't because they will only see one DNF. If you don't think you put in the necessary time and effort into the search, then mention that in the log and let the owner decide if he should be concerned or not.

And if the cache is actually there, the DNF's will give the owner the feedback to adjust the difficulty rating if necessary. If you look for 25 minutes and don't find it, it's probably not a 1 star difficulty. If 3 people look for it unsuccessfully and all 3 have the same attitude as you, the owner will never know that it's harder than he realizes. The DNF's are important information for the cache owner. If I start to see DNF's on a 1 star difficulty cache, I will raise it. Similarly, if I rate a cache 3 stars and don't see any frowny faces, then I'll assume its easier than I thought and lower the rating. Now if people are looking and not registering their DNF's, I'm going to be relying on bad information.

By not logging DNF's you are witholding important information about the cache from the owner.

3k · June 26, 2004

Isn't that a contradiction?

If the information was so important, I would think the cache owner would be eager to check the condition of his/her cache after a single DNF; not after two or three.

By failing to check on a cache after a single DNF, isn't the cache owner "withholding important information about the cache" from those people planning on doing the cache?

I agree that people should ALWAYS log their DNFs; I am simply disagreeing with Brian's argument.

Edited June 26, 2004 by BassoonPilot

38.2k · June 26, 2004

If the information was so important, I would think the cache owner would be eager to check the condition of his/her cache after a single DNF; not after two or three.

Nah.

By failing to check on a cache after a single DNF, isn't the cache owner "withholding important information about the cache" from those people planning on doing the cache?

Nah.

Edited June 26, 2004 by briansnat

3k · June 26, 2004

So you are saying that DNFs are not, in fact, important information. So in reality, they are for "entertainment purposes only."

If that's the case, then maybe it isn't so important for people to log their DNFs unless they have a humorous tale they wish to share.

Edited June 26, 2004 by BassoonPilot

38.2k · June 26, 2004

So you are saying that DNFs are not, in fact, important information. So in reality, they are for "entertainment purposes only.

Nope.

3k · June 26, 2004

Yup.

June 26, 2004

It's not about the numbers!

It's about the PQs.

7.2k · June 26, 2004

If I plan on looking again, I'll usually post a note.

Why? You didn't find it. I could actually be missing and with a note you leave no indication that someone had a problem with it.

The log types are used by the GPX programs letting you see in a glance the activity of the last of logs. Plus, a DNF might let someone skip a cache that maybe missing while in town on a trip. Many people with limited time like to know the cache they are hunting is going to be there. A DNF can indicate it has a problem and the person can then read that DNF log with little fear of reading a spoiler. Then the atual text of the DNF log will help them decide to hunt the cache.

Notes OTOH can contain spoilers because they can be from the owner or previous finders, it could be a about maintenance, or other things that may give too many clues to the hunter.

A DNF doesn't mean you've given up, only that you've stopped looking at that time. It doesn't mean it's not there, nor does it mean there is a problem with it or even that the owner needs to go check it. It only means that you didn't find it on that trip.

7.2k · June 26, 2004

HA! Seems I'm not the only one that uses DNF's differently.

That like trying to justify taking nice stuff and leaving garbage because, "HA! Seems I'm not the only one that trades differently."

7.2k · June 26, 2004

Isn't that a contradiction?

Not in the least. One DNF by itself isn't a redflag meaning there is likely a problem with the cache. Several are. However, you'll not ever get several DNFs if people don't log'em.

June 26, 2004

I could actually be missing and with a note you leave no indication that someone had a problem with it.

Heehee! Sorry...that just struck me as funny. I'll leave it comment-free.

Seriously, why do you keep saying this? Doesn't leaving a note send a notification to the cache owner by email just like a find or DNF does?

I'll just skip the comments on the next post you quoted me on. That's just plain silly.

7.2k · June 26, 2004

It's not about the numbers!

It's about the PQs.

It's about everyone being on the same page when certain situations arise so others know what is going on.

It's like all baseball players everywhere run the bases counterclockwise--no matter if it's the World series or half rubber.

June 26, 2004

They are.

Locally a new cache was placed and nobody logged an FTF. There are 8 or 10 regulars who vie for FTF. On this cache, nothing.

So I wait and still nothing.

If this was my cache I would have gone out to check that the coords were right and it was still there. No FTFs within 2 days of the cache going live is a signal that somethings not right. I don't think a cache owner should wait for a DNF to show up.

June 26, 2004

BassoonPilot Posted: Jun 26 2004, 07:39 AM

Isn't that a contradiction?

If the information was so important, I would think the cache owner would be eager to check the condition of his/her cache after a single DNF; not after two or three.

No. If I sneeze once, I'm OK, I'm not going to the doctor. If I can't stop sneezing, there might be a problem, so now it may be time to get a check up.

By failing to check on a cache after a single DNF, isn't the cache owner "withholding important information about the cache" from those people planning on doing the cache?

One sneeze doesn't mean I'm contagious, not stopping means I may need to let people know they may want to keep away.

I agree that people should ALWAYS log their DNFs; I am simply disagreeing with Brian's argument.

I agree that people should ALWAYS log their DNFs, I just don't think the owner needs to go check after one.

Are People Reluctant To Log A No-find.

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