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Help Me Find This Mark


mloser
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WATER TABLE???

 

My son and I looked for KW0757 for about a half hour, but we were severly hampered by not knowing what a water table is. I looked on all the bridge abutments but didn't find anything. Of course, since the mark was set in 1935 and not looked at since, it is quite possible there IS no water table remaining and we were looking in vain!

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Wait, I may have answered my own question by doing a Google search--does this sound right?

 

"Water Table

In architecture a water table is a moulding, or other projection, in the wall of a building intended to throw off the water. "

 

In that case, the stone bridge supports had such a projection at about chest level. It looked more decorative than architectural, but who knows. I DID look for the mark on this projection but not very hard as the description mentions concrete and the water table is stone.

 

Edit: I have reread the description and it still doesn't make sense to me. I wish I had taken a pic. The water table is not near the track--it is chest high. By my reasoning the square is not actually ON the water table though, but on a footing. I didn't dig around the stone for the footing, but if the mark is on the footer supporting the stone, why would the water table be mentioned? There is a concrete cap on top of the stone that supports wooden columns for the bridge, but I looked there for the mark and didn't find it. For that matter, why mention the water table at all if the mark is on a concrete footer of some sort? The description could just say the mark is on the footer at the top of the southwest end of the north stone support, or the footer at the base of same.

 

Anyone have any clues? I guess I will have to return and look again, and get some pictures.

 

Matt

Edited by mloser
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WATER TABLE???

I'll take a stab at this one, maybe someone else can come along and give a better description. A water table is the part of a structure (I've only seen it used in reference to a building, not a bridge abutment) that curves outward slightly to deflect water away from the ground at the bottom of the building (or bridge abutment, etc). Usually right under a window since water will flow off the window sill then off the water table.

 

JC0586 also mentions a water table. I looked for this one and didn't know what I was looking for but GEO*Trailblazer1 found it and got some pictures of it.

 

Another comment is that this mark was not monumented in 1935, it was only found and documented by the CGS in 1935. It was monumented by PRR (PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD, see this list) at some unknown date. I would suspect that it might be pre-1900. While at the Lewis & Clark marker setting in Washington, MO in May, I got to talking about JC0585 with some of the more knowledgable folks that were there. One of the guys from the state figured that MORC (Missouri River Commission) must have placed the mark in the 1890's (the building was built in 1888). To find out for sure, we would have to track down the archives for the MORC which he thought was taken in by the Army C of E and therefore might be difficult to get permission to locate and look thru from them.

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Hey Rog,

I edited my comment above, since I think I found out what a water table is. It still makes no sense for it to be on this bridge, since the supports are UNDER the roadway and therefore fairly protected from the weather. Nonetheless, there IS a projecting stone course on both major supports beside the track.

 

I know that the UNK monumented date means that the CGS found an older mark and used it. The bridge definitely predates 1935--it is wooden for one thing. That was some of the reason I went looking for these marks this weekend. I knew the chiseled and brass bolt ones predate 1935, some by a large time period. This one just stymied me, and as I mentioned above, the description still does.

 

Matt

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To find out for sure, we would have to track down the archives for the MORC which he thought was taken in by the Army C of E and therefore might be difficult to get permission to locate and look thru from them.

 

Rog,

I found some MORC mons last week and have been searching for that elusive data ever since. This is the best site online that I could find so far: MORC

 

I would be interested if anybody can find anything better.

 

Regards,

CallawayMT

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See the ledge below the arrow in the image. Thats the Water table. It is the first main floor of a building or structure, basements not included. I think your description uses a misinterpretation of the term.

 

66380_300.jpg

66380_100.jpg

THE FORMER QUINCY MINING COMPANY PAY OFFICE, COMPLETED IN 1897. IT IS LISTED AS A NATIONAL HISTORIC LANDMARK AND IS OWNED BY THE KEWEENAW NATIONAL HISTORIC PARK (Nat'l Park Service). IT NOW HOUSES THE GEORGE WRIGHT SOCIETY, THE ISLE ROYALE NATURAL HISTORY ASSOCIATION AND THE ISLE ROYALE NATIONAL PARK ADMINISTRATION OFFICES

Edited by elcamino
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I did find a ledge on this bridge base, but not close to the ground. To be honest, I was convinced that the mark would be on the top of the bridge foundation and only looked there, so I might have missed a true "water table" closer to the ground. I guess my only recourse is to return and, armed with my new knowledge, look some more!

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AT AN OVERPASS, AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF

A WATER TABLE NEAR THE TRACK, AND ON THE TOP OF THE CONCRETE

'FOOTING.  A CHISELED SQUARE.

 

The mark is on the footing which is the base of the structure. Its possible its covered over. The description is kind of vague, a structure has a footing on which the walls are built. Footings are often below ground and not visible especially on buildings and massive structures. They left out some important info, such as how far above or below level with RR grade (tracks) the marks is.

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I totally agree with your assessment of the information being left out. In fact, it is not completely clear which side of the tracks this mark is on. Now that I have thought about it and gone over the location mentally I am pretty sure the square is on the north support's footer, on the west end (putting it at the southwest corner), and most likely under ballast or dirt.

I neglected to read the description fully and at the time was distracted by a phone call and by the fact that my 14 year old son had just walked through something that made his legs hurt. So I probably didn't spend as much time as I should have at this location.

 

My son has agreed to return with me, despite the weed and leg issues :tongue: so I will conquer this one! And describe it better!

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My summation.

READ,READ,READ,THINK,THINK,THINK,

DO NOT GIVE UP.

Way to go you sound like me.....................I am a gonna till I caint no mo.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Sometimes the data sheets do not give the regular layman a chance.

Just like the one rogbarn posted for me I looked till way after dark,the photo's were taken with the flash on.

I am going back one of these days soon and get a good daytime photo.

 

If you look at the data sheet on it it say's on the TOP of the East face.

 

I looked on top 10 times,then it hit me on the top of the East face.

I then found the U and looked and found the S,very hard to see it now It has flaked and they have added some type of lime wash? over it.

Edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1
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In my experience with these old railroad benchmarks, quite often the chiseled crosses and chiseled squares can be very difficult to discern, particularly if they're made in concrete. Natural weathering by itself seems to cause them to gradually erode or wear away from the surface over the years. If they're carved into solid stone, the marks are usually not very deep, but they hold up much better than on concrete. Here are some examples:

 

From LY1760 (chiseled in stone):

 

29795_100.jpg

 

From LY1759 (chiseled in stone):

 

29507_200.jpg

 

From LY1345 (chiseled in stone):

 

27822_100.jpg

 

From LY1346 (chiseled in concrete):

 

27832_100.jpg

 

I suggest looking very carefully for even the thinnest impression.

 

Another very important point I've discovered is that quite a few station marks (including disks as well as chiseled marks) have gross errors in the historical descriptions on the datasheets with regard to cardinal compass directions. For example: LY1343. This station is right down the road from where I live. I searched for it once before about a year ago, but I followed the descriptive text and looked only on the north end of the east bridge seat. Turns out the disk is on the south end of the west bridge seat! (I have yet to do my recovery on this one only because it's so close to me and I've already seen it, and I'm expecting to be able to get to it anytime.) So, don't assume the directions are right. Check all corners on both sides of the tracks, roadway or stream.

 

Cheers ...

Edited by Rich in NEPA
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Rich,

I didn't expect it to be real obvious, but it was the lame description that set me back. All this talking about it has me it an obsession now! It isn't real hard to get to so I will be heading back to see what I can find. My thinking is that it is below track level under some ballast or dirt.

 

Here is an example of an easy to find chiseled square. IT is about 1/2 inch deep!

 

Chiseled Square

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One thing I wanted to mention about Rich's photos is that I'm glad he had other objects in the pictures to give a visual scale. I've seen some photos that I have no clue as to how far the photo was taken and found that it wasn't very helpful at all.

 

I haven't decided for myself what objects to use for photos to NGS. A GPS may not be real welcome. The pen works great as a pointer. I had thought to use a ruler, but that's probably overkill.

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