Destroyed Benchmarks

[+Clan X-Man]

Do you report these as destroyed? I seem to remeber reading that you shouldn't.

[+GeckoGeek]

Do you report these as destroyed? I seem to remeber reading that you shouldn't.

Yes, but the whole topic of "what is destroyed" is a bit wild. For example, in the case of a survey disk by NGS rules, you can not declare it destroyed unless you've found the actual disk. If the disk is missing, then officially it's a "not found".

[+chaosmanor]

For more on this topic, you should read the "pinned" thread that was started by DebBrown. She is the "one who knows all" on this topic, as she is the one at the NGS who processes all of the Recovery Reports. Her opening comments go into a lot of detail on many things, including how to report "Destroyed" BMs, and what makes them Destroyed vs Not Found.

[+Colorado Papa]

For more on this topic, you should read the "pinned" thread that was started by DebBrown.

"pinned" thread = Ask Ngs Questions About Reporting Criteria

[+Colorado Papa]

For example, in the case of a survey disk by NGS rules, you can not declare it destroyed unless you've found the actual disk.  If the disk is missing, then officially it's a "not found".

Not necessarily. Take a look at the these pictures of HK0165 submitted to Deb and her conclussion:

The mounting hole

Up 17 bricks at shadow

The building

HK0165 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

HK0165 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS

HK0165 HISTORY - 1982 GOOD NGS

HK0165 HISTORY - 1982 GOOD NGS

HK0165 HISTORY - 20040526 DESTROYED NGS

HK0165

HK0165 STATION DESCRIPTION

HK0165

HK0165'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1934

HK0165'AT WALSENBURG.

HK0165'0.9 MILES WEST OF THE COUNTY COURTHOUSE, 98 FEET NORTH OF A SPUR

HK0165'TRACK OF THE DENVER AND RIO GRANDE WESTERN RAILROAD, IN THE SOUTH

HK0165'WALL OF THE WALSENBURG POWER AND LIGHT PLANT, 49 FEET EAST OF THE

HK0165'SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE BUILDING, 8 FEET WEST OF THE SOUTH ENTRANCE

HK0165'TO THE BOILER ROOMS, AND ABOUT 5 FEET ABOVE THE GROUND, AND SET

HK0165'VERTICALLY.

HK0165

HK0165 STATION RECOVERY (1982)

HK0165

HK0165'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1982

HK0165'THE BUILDING THE MARK IS SET IN IS NOW ABANDONED AS A POWER PLANT AND

HK0165'A LOCKED GATE SURROUNDS THE BUILDING. THE BUILDINGS IS NOW A STORAGE

HK0165'YARD FOR THE HUERFANO COUNTY.

HK0165

HK0165 STATION RECOVERY (1982)

HK0165

HK0165'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1982

HK0165'THE BUILDING THE MARK IS SET IN IS NOW ABANDONED AS A POWER PLANT AND

HK0165'A LOCKED GATE SURROUNDS THE BUILDING. THE BUILDINGS IS NOW A STORAGE

HK0165'YARD FOR THE HUERFANO COUNTY.

HK0165

HK0165 STATION RECOVERY (2004)

HK0165

HK0165'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 2004 (DB)

HK0165'THIS REPORT WAS SUBMITTED BY TED STATLER.

[mloser]

Colorado Papa,

That sort of changes everything we have been telling each other to believe here. The common assumption is that if the disk has been removed there were two possibilities--the stem could be used as a survey aid, or, since the disk was not found there was no guarantee that the station discovered destroyed is the one in the description.

I know we have all come on destroyed disks we were 100% certain were the ones we were searching for and, since they are missing, they are destroyed, but we never reported that situation to Deb. This might be one for the pinned thread to Deb.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Clan X-Man -

 

Your question

Do you report these as destroyed?

can be taken 2 ways:

1. Do you report these as destroyed on the Geocaching Site?

2. Do you report these as destroyed on the NGS Mark Recovery page?

 

1. On the Geocaching site, some people log these as Didn't find it, some log them as Found it, some Post a Note, and some log them as Mark destroyed. There are reasonable justifications for all four. The safest is to log them as Didn't find it or Post a Note, and post the picture with the log. What you found might be the remains of another disk that happened to be nearby the one you were looking for. It's probably best to use Mark destroyed only if you report it to the NGS and THEY declare it destroyed (you then change your Didn't find it or Found it log to Mark Destroyed on the Geocaching Site). Sometimes the PID's (benchmark's) Documented History itself says the station is destroyed, but the PID isn't coded destroyed for some reason. In such cases, you could log the station as destroyed on the Geocaching site if you physically go to visit the site to check the situation yourself.

 

2. On the NGS Mark Recovery site, if you think the PID is destroyed, there are 2 explicit choices and, it seems to me, one implicit choice. In none of the three choices can you actually log the PID as destroyed - the NGS Mark Recovery form has no provision for that - only the NGS can log a PID as destroyed. The first explicit choice is to email Deb Brown with a picture of a marker (disk) if you actually found the disk separated from its mounting. If you didn't find the disk, the other explicit choice is to log as "Not recovered, not found" on the Mark Recovery form and enter in the text field at the bottom of the form why you think it's destroyed. The implicit choice is to email Deb Brown with a picture of the remains of the "destroyed" mark with a text stating why you think you've found the remains of the correct mark. She will then make the judgement as to whether you did, and how to log it on the NGS site. As I see it, the basic difference between the second explicit choice and the implicit choice is whether or not you have a picture of the remains of the PID to email to Deb.

 

For beginners, it's probably best to hold off logging to the NGS until you get experience with a bunch of PIDs.

 

Concerning AB4507, which you might be referring to, the mark is listed as 4.5 feet above the highway and the top is flush with the ground. It seems unlikely that it would be out of the ground and hit by a car. Could be though. I would probably log Didn't find it, or Post a Note as you did, and leave it at that. I have found lots and lots of funny cement post remains around PID's that I didn't find, but no brass shank or disk 'scar'. I always just log Didn't find it in those cases.

[+seventhings]

BDT -

 

Good summary of this oft-discussed problem.

 

I use three standards for posting to Geocaching:

 

1. If the mark is a vertical structure (radio tower, etc) with adjusted coords, and it is obviously not there anymore, I'll log DESTROYED.

 

2. If the mark is a disk and I can't find it, I'll log as DIDN'T FIND IT, even if there is very soild evidence that it has been destroyed, except,

 

3. If the disk is described as being at a location with adjusted coords and that I can find with near absolute certainty (like the station that is common to UT, AZ, CO and NM) but is no longer there, I'll log as FOUND and then note as DESTROYED in the text. Of the 1,000 or so benchmarks I have logged (FOUND + DIDN'T FIND + NOTE + DESTROYED), I have three in the "FOUND - DESTROYED" CATEGORY.

 

For reporting to NGS, I post my Geocaching DESTROYEDs as NOT FOUNDS, with apprpriate descriptive text..

 

I have sent NGS one e-mail (with photos, etc) regarding two benchmarks that I think they should reclassify as DESTROYED. Deb has acknowledged my e-mail, but I am waiting until the change shows up in the NGS database before I submit the several others for which I have data and photos.

 

7

[+Colorado Papa]

The common assumption is that if the disk has been removed there were two possibilities--the stem could be used as a survey aid, or, since the disk was not found there was no guarantee that the station discovered destroyed is the one in the description.

.

In this particular case, there was no doubt about the location- the description was clear and concise (49 FEET EAST OF THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE BUILDING, 8 FEET WEST OF THE SOUTH ENTRANCE TO THE BOILER ROOMS, AND ABOUT 5 FEET ABOVE THE GROUND, AND SET VERTICALLY.). All the measurements lead to this hole. I emailed the facts and pictures to Deb and she is the one who made the decision to declare it as destroyed. Her judgement may have been that it was a vertical mark so no "exact" elevation could be determined plus the fact that the building is falling apart.

 

One other thing- large sign in front saying this is the future home of a truck stop. The building, most likely, will be torn down soon.

 

Here's another addition- HK0503 is the stack on top of the building. When the building gets razed, do you have to be present taking pictures of the stack coming down for it to be declared as destroyed? Otherwise, it will stay in the database forever as NOT FOUND!

Edited June 16, 2004 by Colorado Papa

[Z15]

How 'bout that old Ford Truck in one photo? Looks restorable

Edited June 16, 2004 by elcamino

[+Colorado Papa]

How 'bout that old Ford Truck in one photo?  Looks restorable

The town would probably like to get it out of there!

 

Here's another view of the building, and the truck. Notice how part of the wall has already collapsed. But the stack stands tall!

 

[+GeckoGeek]

In this particular case, there was no doubt about the location- the description was clear and concise

Probably the most important part is that it's not in the ground where it's far too easy for it to hide under a small layer of dirt.

 

Given your experence, it suggests a new standard for what's considered destroyed. It sounds like it's time for the "dirty underwear" test (Throw it against the wall and see what sticks.) to define the new standard.

 

When the building gets razed,  do you have to be present taking pictures of the stack coming down for it to be declared as destroyed?  Otherwise, it will stay in the database forever as NOT FOUND!

No, the stack plays be different rules. You only have to show it's not there now.

[mloser]

The town would probably like to get it out of there! 

 

 

Because it is such an eyesore next to that beautiful building???